a full frame camera with the best ibis?

[Beritar]

1 hour ago, zlfan said:

gerald undone thinks that s1 has a much better ibis than s5. probably the bigger body, the high power consumption, helps to maintain a higher performance ibis system in s1. sometimes bigger body still reigns. 

Yes but this is not true.

Undone has always found something to say to fault Panasonic in the past, like he did with the reviews of the 10-25mm saying the 18-35mm had better AF ... And saying the S1 IBIS is much better than the S5 without even comparing them to Sony cameras is doubtful to say the least, especially when he was the first to say the AF was much better on Sony than on panasonic (which was true).
Both the S1 and S5 are very comparable for IBIS. The S1 is very slightly better. Even with a 85mm lens, I must really looking closely to see the difference with IS BOOST enabled.

An exemple :
 

When walking there is a bit more "jump" on the S5, but the difference is very slight. I used and still use the S1 and S5 a lot and they are really close. I saw some comments saying the S1H had better IBIS than the S1 but I never made a comparison with both so I don't know.

The real upgrade was with the S5II, especially when walking, the S5II is noticeably better than the S1 and S5 but it can sometimes look more "digital".
By exemple when shooting in 6K or Open Gate with a 85mm and IS BOOST, the S5II seems a bit more stable than the S1, but when cropping I can see a bit more micro jitters on the S5II like if the S5II was applying a stronger correction. This make me think the S5II uses more processing power for the IBIS, and maybe lower the overall image quality compared to the S5 and S1.
However when walking, the S5II is clearly better past 24mm, both the S5 and S1 show visibly more "jump".
I suppose we can't get a more perfect camera till Panasonic will drastically change the processor and the sensor of their full frame cameras (they still use the same Sony sensor from 2018).

[zlfan]

58 minutes ago, Beritar said:

Yes but this is not true.

Undone has always found something to say to fault Panasonic in the past, like he did with the reviews of the 10-25mm saying the 18-35mm had better AF ... And saying the S1 IBIS is much better than the S5 without even comparing them to Sony cameras is doubtful to say the least, especially when he was the first to say the AF was much better on Sony than on panasonic (which was true).
Both the S1 and S5 are very comparable for IBIS. The S1 is very slightly better. Even with a 85mm lens, I must really looking closely to see the difference with IS BOOST enabled.

An exemple :
 

When walking there is a bit more "jump" on the S5, but the difference is very slight. I used and still use the S1 and S5 a lot and they are really close. I saw some comments saying the S1H had better IBIS than the S1 but I never made a comparison with both so I don't know.

The real upgrade was with the S5II, especially when walking, the S5II is noticeably better than the S1 and S5 but it can sometimes look more "digital".
By exemple when shooting in 6K or Open Gate with a 85mm and IS BOOST, the S5II seems a bit more stable than the S1, but when cropping I can see a bit more micro jitters on the S5II like if the S5II was applying a stronger correction. This make me think the S5II uses more processing power for the IBIS, and maybe lower the overall image quality compared to the S5 and S1.
However when walking, the S5II is clearly better past 24mm, both the S5 and S1 show visibly more "jump".
I suppose we can't get a more perfect camera till Panasonic will drastically change the processor and the sensor of their full frame cameras (they still use the same Sony sensor from 2018).

s5 with helios 58mm static shots seems fine to my eyes. 

[BTM_Pix]

8 hours ago, kye said:

Yeah, that's terrible, and not easy to correct in post at all.

I am wondering when the camera manufacturers and/or post people will get their act together and start addressing these distortions - if they profile a lens then it should be 99% fixable, either in-camera via processing or in-post using gyro and IBIS + OIS alignment data, or simply a more sophisticated stabilisation algorithm than a 2D crop of the final image.  It doesn't even have to be perfect, an 80-90% reduction in the flappiness would be - well - 5-10x better.

I mean, if a GoPro can do it for one lens, essentially perfectly, then it can't be beyond a multi-thousand dollar professional camera body with a native lens.

It shouldn't be beyond the means of Panasonic to create a hotshoe mounted 9 axis IMU that embeds the data in the files via BLE so you can have the option of both.

The drawback to the L mount series is how few optically stabilised lenses there are for it as well.

Baffles me that Sigma in particular don't make any (other than the 100-400) with OIS as if there is any camera in L mount that could do with a helping hand regarding stabilisation it is their own ones.

All of it just emphasises how nothing beats a tripod.

IBIS means we can stick it to the man by snatching shots where tripods would likely be unable to be used but if the end result is irreparable warping then its a pyrrhic victory really isn't it.

 

[zlfan]

 

not as good as a gimbal, a little bit worse than go pro 12. but very impressive as it is casual walking video making. I think the static shots should be very stable on this camera, which is actually the most practical way to shoot. if want to shoot walking all the time, an action cam is more proper.  

[sgreszcz]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:43 AM, John Matthews said:

On the IBIS front, we've gone from taking out micro-jitters to gimbal replacement. IMO nothing truly replaces a skilled steadycam operator. However, if you're one man show, the Panasonic S5ii/x has the best IBIS in the business in June 2024. Sony is far, far behind for out-of-camera gimbal like shots on their FF bodies. Nikon and Canon still have issues with warpy corners on wide shots (the majority of shots for "gimbal replacements"). Coming from M43 and used to Panasonic and Olympus systems crushing FF bodies, I was amazed how Panasonic did it.

I totally agree, I just upgraded my Panasonic S5ii to the latest firmware, and in IBIS "tripod mode" with the 24-105/4 OIS I was able to handhold a 2-hour theatre production for the zoom close-ups and it is as steady as my wide tripod shots. 

I'm going to shoot my first live event (carnival, moving around) with my S5ii and 24-105/4.  I've shot it for every year on just about every Panasonic and Olympus camera since the summer the GX80 came out.  I'm curious how the S5ii will compare.  The best so far was my E-M1ii with the Olympus 12-100/4 OIS.  That was an amazingly stable setup.  I only switched to the S5ii as I needed better low-light for theatre photography and use the Sigma 14-70/2.8.  Actually high iso might not matter much anymore even for photography as the AI noise reduction in Lightroom is amazing.

[John Matthews]

7 hours ago, sgreszcz said:

I totally agree, I just upgraded my Panasonic S5ii to the latest firmware, and in IBIS "tripod mode" with the 24-105/4 OIS I was able to handhold a 2-hour theatre production for the zoom close-ups and it is as steady as my wide tripod shots. 

I'm going to shoot my first live event (carnival, moving around) with my S5ii and 24-105/4.  I've shot it for every year on just about every Panasonic and Olympus camera since the summer the GX80 came out.  I'm curious how the S5ii will compare.  The best so far was my E-M1ii with the Olympus 12-100/4 OIS.  That was an amazingly stable setup.  I only switched to the S5ii as I needed better low-light for theatre photography and use the Sigma 14-70/2.8.  Actually high iso might not matter much anymore even for photography as the AI noise reduction in Lightroom is amazing.

That seems like a good setup. I'm sure you'll get some good content. Let us know: 1) how the content turned out; 2) how your arms and back felt after a full day of to doing it. Those are the two points where I think FF can fall short in terms of expectations. I still very much like the idea of M43 regarding these two points, granted the savings in terms of weight is not so great when comparing your E-M1ii and S5ii setups (a 285g difference and more reach with the Olympus).

 

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, sgreszcz said:

Actually high iso might not matter much anymore even for photography as the AI noise reduction in Lightroom is amazing.

Or DXO or Topaz. I run everything through DXO these days. 

1000 files is about an hour while I walk the dogs.

Then when I am back, I import the DNG files into LR with my import preset and hand edit from there on in, but noise is a potential issue that has already been solved.

[zlfan]

 

in terms of ibis, according to the tests by Richard Wong here in this video, seems to my eyes that:

1. gh7 is a little bit better than g9ii

2. gh7 is significantly better than gh6

3. gh6 is a little bit better than s5ii

4. gh7 is significantly better than Sony and fuji. 

5. he did not test gh7 vs om-1/ii.

my conclusion is that, in the next 5-10 years, at least for another two generations, full frame ibis is not as good as m43 offers. om1/ii and gh7 are the way to go for handheld shooting. these two will be my future purchasing plan. 

cheers,

 

 

[zlfan]

24 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Or DXO or Topaz. I run everything through DXO these days. 

1000 files is about an hour while I walk the dogs.

Then when I am back, I import the DNG files into LR with my import preset and hand edit from there on in, but noise is a potential issue that has already been solved.

video clips also doable this way?

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, zlfan said:

video clips also doable this way?

Not as far as I am aware. I use DXO PureRaw on raw stills files. 

Video software is available such as Neat but I have never used it myself and haven’t experienced any issues with video noise. Possibly because in lower light of after dark, I light everything…

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

Possibly because in lower light of after dark, I light everything…

Controversial 😉 

[MrSMW]

Just now, BTM_Pix said:

Controversial 😉 

I know. I like to sail hard against the wind.

[bjohn]

15 hours ago, sgreszcz said:

I only switched to the S5ii as I needed better low-light for theatre photography and use the Sigma 14-70/2.8.  Actually high iso might not matter much anymore even for photography as the AI noise reduction in Lightroom is amazing.

I must have a higher tolerance for noise than most people, because I rarely denoise my photos (and I mostly shoot concerts and dances in dimly lit environments, usually well over ISO 12,800). I'm shooting raw on Sony, though, so some denoising is applied automatically in-camera. I have occasionally had to denoise concert photos, but overall I'd estimate that out of every 20,000 photos I apply additional noise reduction to about 15 or 20.

Video is a completely different story: no noise reduction is applied by my cameras so I do NR on everything except footage shot outdoors in good light.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, bjohn said:

I must have a higher tolerance for noise than most people, because I rarely denoise my photos (and I mostly shoot concerts and dances in dimly lit environments, usually well over ISO 12,800). I'm shooting raw on Sony

Interesting…

First thing I noticed when switching from  Nikon to Sony was the increase in noise.

Really ugly noise too!

And the opposite of you in that I do not de-noise video!

These Sony files though… Even the medium raw which are supposed to be better than full uncompressed 61mp raw are supposed to be better, but I thought them horrendous. Actually shocked at how bad they are. Talking stills here.

Unless I am missing something but I can see it from 1600 and it just gets worse and the max I shoot is 12800.

Hmmm….

[bjohn]

18 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Interesting…

First thing I noticed when switching from  Nikon to Sony was the increase in noise.

Really ugly noise too!

And the opposite of you in that I do not de-noise video!

These Sony files though… Even the medium raw which are supposed to be better than full uncompressed 61mp raw are supposed to be better, but I thought them horrendous. Actually shocked at how bad they are. Talking stills here.

Unless I am missing something but I can see it from 1600 and it just gets worse and the max I shoot is 12800.

Hmmm….

Like I said, maybe noise doesn't bother me as much as it should. Here's an example of a still shot on Sony A7iii (uncompressed raw, but only 24 megapixels); I have my ISO capped at 12,800 and that's what the EXIF shows but it was at least two stops underexposed so I had to bring it up. I did no denoising myself although Capture One applies a bit of denoising automatically (and adds a small amount of film grain) so maybe that's what's going on. The level of noise here doesn't bother me at all.

For video I'm using Blackmagic cameras, none of which apply any noise reduction in-camera; they leave that up to you in post so you can dial in as much or as little as you like. In low light those cameras are super-noisy and even if I crush the blacks I usually have to denoise every clip.
 

 

[mercer]

23 minutes ago, bjohn said:

Like I said, maybe noise doesn't bother me as much as it should. Here's an example of a still shot on Sony A7iii (uncompressed raw, but only 24 megapixels); I have my ISO capped at 12,800 and that's what the EXIF shows but it was at least two stops underexposed so I had to bring it up. I did no denoising myself although Capture One applies a bit of denoising automatically (and adds a small amount of film grain) so maybe that's what's going on. The level of noise here doesn't bother me at all.

For video I'm using Blackmagic cameras, none of which apply any noise reduction in-camera; they leave that up to you in post so you can dial in as much or as little as you like. In low light those cameras are super-noisy and even if I crush the blacks I usually have to denoise every clip.
 

 

That's a really nice image! Love the color work. Was that with the Micro? Nah, it's gotta be from a 4K, right?

[mercer]

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

That's a really nice image! Love the color work. Was that with the Micro? Nah, it's gotta be from a 4K, right?

Never mind... I didn't read your comment thoroughly enough. Or it would appear... at all. Haha. Still a nice shot, though!

[bjohn]

12 minutes ago, mercer said:

I didn't read your comment thoroughly enough. Or it would appear... at all. Haha. Still a nice shot, though!

No worries...as I noted it was a still shot with Sony A7iii. I am foolish enough to attempt taking photos of dancers with manual lenses in dimly lit halls. To keep ISO down I use fast lenses wide open or close to it, which means I rarely nail focus. But the dancers love these photos, especially when focus is not spot on. On this one I used a Minolta Rokkor 58/1.2, probably wide open based on the shape of the OOF highlights.

[zlfan]

23 minutes ago, bjohn said:

No worries...as I noted it was a still shot with Sony A7iii. I am foolish enough to attempt taking photos of dancers with manual lenses in dimly lit halls. To keep ISO down I use fast lenses wide open or close to it, which means I rarely nail focus. But the dancers love these photos, especially when focus is not spot on. On this one I used a Minolta Rokkor 58/1.2, probably wide open based on the shape of the OOF highlights.

Minolta Rokkor 58/1.2 is famous for its bokur. good for portraiture. 

[zlfan]

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I know. I like to sail hard against the wind.

most cameras sacrifice dr and resolution when not recording in native iso. wb may also not be as good. modern cameras focus on High ISO performance so that the color filter array is thin thus color is not rich. 

one of the main reasons why film looks so good in vintage movies, is that dps lighted the scenes traditionally as Kodak vision film stocks are at most iso 500.