Shallow DOF jumped the shark?

[Andrew Reid]

I am currently writing a guide to all the classic digicams from Y2k.

And it has made me realise that I am getting a bit bored of full frame at F1.2.

I think a similar thing has happened with anamorphic. The look has been held hostage by the ad world and cheapened, overused.

So in a way it is quite refreshing to spend time with a Canon G2 from 2002 with (decent for the time) 2/3" sensor, or if you want a modern 2/3" sensor, the Fuji X-30. Also fun are the tiny Canon IXUS models with CHDK for raw, and some of the older smartphones like the iPhone 4S.

It has made me think that if the light isn't right and the subject isn't interesting no amount of shallow DOF can make it worthwhile so why bother?

And if the light IS right and the subject IS fantastic then a deep DOF can sometimes make it look even better, sometimes not - but it's definitely a valid creative choice.

I also think the modern cameras are just getting too good... too clean, too clinical, too sharp, especially the modern lenses (be it anamorphic or otherwise). And we have had this discussion for about 15 years now and not a single manufacturer has listened.

There is nobody in the modern camera industry fulfilling the niche of analogue / film compact replacement camera other than the y2k CCD digicams. And don't get me started on the desire for a Digital Bolex sequel!

[PannySVHS]

That's pure awesomeness! I will sit there with scrambled eggs and coffee and read and read and reread your article! I have been thinking about the 10bit Panny HPX 250 once every couple months. For me it is coming closest to the mysterious DVX100 Andromeda, with its 720p uncompressed hack. The DVX100 has an older 4 to 3 cousine, the Panny DX1, which has lotta mojo too. Love the body and the huge eye cup and the 3CCD magic, not the interlacing and tape workflow though. Here is a video I did with some friends. I had 70min material of sun flooded autumn leaves, benches, a compelling actress and  four friends running into eachothers shots. I still enjoy how the edit turned out. Happy times. Oh, Canon XL1, Panny DX1, G6 and Canon 700D in the mix:)

 

[Emanuel]

@PannySVHS as we all know it's the man behind, not the pen who makes the poetry and you're one of those, kudos buddy! : )

With 4x units G7 still is today one of my fav cams ever...

[John Matthews]

This is a subject I've long wanted to discuss. Sure, it's great to have shallow DOF sometimes, but what are you really doing? Hiding? Why hide something if your subject and story great, the framing and deep focus could enhance that as long as the quality is there.

[kye]

Sharpness and resolution are misleading measures if you care about aesthetics.

The things to pay attention to are the MTF curve of the final images.  Both film and classic lenses all had a natural fall-off where finer details were present but became lower contrast - a low pass filter essentially.

Digital has no low pass filter (except nearing nyquist), and with most processing, it actually exhibits a high-pass pattern, where the contrast of fine detail is higher than that of larger details.

[MrSMW]

3 things I am bored with either in principal or because I’ve been doing it myself and am tired of it.

1. Anamorphic. Never tried it but despise those blue light streaks and those curved edges. In the words of the great sage Gollum, go away and don’t ever come back. Unless it’s without those stoopid light streaks and the edges are straight.

2. Slow motion everywhere, all the time, for the sake of slow motion. Guilty 🤷‍♂️

However, it can have it’s place and I will not totally desist, but it’s much more sporadic these days.

3. Shallow DOF for the sake of shallow DOF, everywhere, all the time. Not guilty but still partial to some shallow DOF for specific reasons at specific times as I feel fit. But those folks who say shoot an entire wedding at f1.4 from start to finish? Well they belong with those monkeys who think shooting the entire thing with just a 24mm lens is ‘artistic’. I call it muppetry.

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

So in a way it is quite refreshing to spend time with a Canon G2 from 2002 with (decent for the time) 2/3" sensor, or if you want a modern 2/3" sensor, the Fuji X-30.

In my eyes, the ultimate ever 2/3" camera is still the epic Sony F23! But very hard to find these days. 

 

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I also think the modern cameras are just getting too good... too clean, too clinical, too sharp, especially the modern lenses (be it anamorphic or otherwise). And we have had this discussion for about 15 years now and not a single manufacturer has listened.

That's why the prices for vintage cine lens sets have gone insane. 

And many modern manufactures are attempted to recreate "the vintage look". For example, just recently in the past month these have been in the news:

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/06/06/ancient-optics-old-fast-glass-statera-1-5x-anamorphic-primes/ 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/06/06/module-8-variable-l2-pro-tuner/ 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/06/11/iron-glass-lenses-at-cine-gear-2024/

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/06/01/v35-project-retunes-modern-lenses-to-emulate-vintage-lens-aesthetics/ 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/05/14/masterbuilt-ultra65-lens-series/ 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/05/02/fuji-ebc-primes/ 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/05/02/iron-glass-phenix-28-70mm-t2-7/ 

All of this going for the old "vintage look", that's just only in one month in the news, and only what was reported just on one website. Just scratching the surface here. 

[PannySVHS]

The Sony SRW900 comes in two variantes, one with the F35 sensor and a version with a 3 2/3" CCD sensor block. Is the latter a F23 in a shoulder mount body? @IronFilm  Btw the S35 version was on sale on ebay Germany, with the  444 board, 50p 422, viewfinder and tapes, all for 2500 Euro, five or so years ago. Never found one for a price close to that again. Happy though that I did not feel tempted enough to spend my savings on it.:)

Still got my G7 which I only used two or three times. Lovely HD, best in M43 land imho after GH5, rather average codec in lower light regarding macro blocks, otherwise fantastic image. I would even rather love to see some of your 4 x G7 videos than from your FF Blackmagic 6K. @Emanuel 😂 Nerdom.:)

I absolutely love the form factor of the Panasonic NV DX1, another mini DV cult classic. It has 3 1/3" CCD sensors iirc. I would adore a 1080p or even 720p 8bit 422 version of it. The Panasonic HVX200 provides that afaik.  I never had a chance to use a HVX, but it seems much bigger, close to EX1 territory.

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

I've been over "shallowest DOF" for a while now.  For quite a while, I've been more interested in "proper DOF."  The right DOF is the one that fits the story that you're trying to tell with the right amount of detail in background areas.  Want to express the subject's extreme isolation?  You might actually be wide open with a very fast lens.  Want to draw attention to the subject?  Probably better to stop down a little bit so that the background is identifiable, but still oof.  Want to present the subject occupying a place, such as in a wide establishing shot?  Stop down a bit more.

Similarly, lens choice should be driven by desired look/impact.  Shooting futuristic sci-fi?  Maybe you want some really sharp glass.  Shooting something a bit more romantic with lots of high-key lighting and close-ups?  Probably better to choose something a little softer.  Making a short film starring a can of beans?  Maybe don't overthink it.

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Is the latter a F23 in a shoulder mount body?

It's an identical body to the F35! But with a 2/3" sensor. 

The F23 came out first. And most F23 bodies got upgraded to a F35. 

Is one of the reasons why so few F23 bodies still exist. 

10 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Btw the S35 version was on sale on ebay Germany, with the  444 board, 50p 422, viewfinder and tapes, all for 2500 Euro, five or so years ago. Never found one for a price close to that again. Happy though that I did not feel tempted enough to spend my savings on it.:)

A bullet dodged! 

I do find it very hard sometimes to resist the temptation of incredibly cheap bargain deals on old technology that was for its time the very best. 

Last night on eBay I got a working Lenovo Thinkpad X270 from Lithuania for only a hundred bucks NZD!! (including shipping!! Incredible) The X270 was for its time the very best ultraportable business laptop, capable of up to 24hrs of battery life! (yes, you read that right! And if 24hrs of nonstop computing time wasn't enough for you... you could do battery hot swaps! Because the X270 used dual batteries, so could run on one while the other one was unplugged)

Also last night I scored a Thinkpad P71 for only US$185! (plus shipping & taxes) The Thinkpad P71 is a 17 inch beast, a desktop replacement workstation with a tonne of power under the hood and heaps of upgradeability potential! (unlike most laptops) Although very worryingly... they messaged me now saying they accidentally shipped it to the wrong addressed???? wtf! They're trying to reroute it now back to themselves or to the correct address? I don't think they're trying to scam me...   they've got thousands of feedback ratings with a 99.6% rating! And they said if they can't sort it out they will offer me a different laptop (but they don't have any I want...) or a refund (but I want my P71!). 

Or a couple of weeks ago I got a miracle deal on a Lectrosonics UHD200D for just US$100! (my other one I paid about less than US$300 for secondhand in 2022, and I thought that was an amazing deal for it! Yes it's technology from the early 2000's, but still works well and sounds great in 2024!) I think that UH200D I got this month will remain my most amazing #1 bargain of 2024. 

 

[Emanuel]

13 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Still got my G7 which I only used two or three times. Lovely HD, best in M43 land imho after GH5, rather average codec in lower light regarding macro blocks, otherwise fantastic image. I would even rather love to see some of your 4 x G7 videos than from your FF Blackmagic 6K. @Emanuel 😂 Nerdom.:)

That one arrived last week from UK, still waiting for the adapters to couple the customary manual glass... which should arrive by tomorrow or Thursday just in time for The Waterboys concert this Friday.

Those 4x G7 units are used for multiple-camera setup needs, here are some grabs extracted from one of those 4K 25p H.264 codec (where high resolution shows some advantages of its own) videos I cannot publish for music copyright not under my umbrella but just for a couple of ETTL samples here now:

The artist is a famous Portuguese Grammy winner who represented the country with an honourable 7th place in Eurovision 1980 BTW with a few universal words in German/English/Italian/French mixed in the lyrics...

[PannySVHS]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

A bullet dodged! 

There had been a tapeless recording option planned in form of an additional board. The fact that these plans never materialized makes this camera much easier to resist.:) Another interesting info on the F35 and SRW9000, it's 444 12bit vs 444 10bit afaik.

 

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It's an identical body to the F35! But with a 2/3" sensor. 

The F23 came out first. And most F23 bodies got upgraded to a F35. 

Is one of the reasons why so few F23 bodies still exist. 

But is the 3CCD block in the SRW9000 block the same as in the F23? The sensor in the S35 version is from the F35. Btw F23 and F35, great naming convention regarding sensor gate.:) It took Arri many years to get back to that. They only dared to do so with their majestic Alexa35.:)

F35 is offering Cine 2K as well? The SRW is an HD camera afaik.

That Lenovo deal is isane. @IronFilm I just got myself a 17" sixcore with a rtx2070 for 250 Eu, due to a reddish spot on the display, which is only visible against a black background. Seller offered me 200 Euro off his original selling price of 450 when he discovered it and emailed me beforehand. Crazy. I hope it will work fine.

That is so cool! @Emanuel 🤗 Was that show recorded or streamed or even a live broadcast? I am asking because the mini hdmi would make the latter two a technical achievement in its own right. What color temperature were you using? It's a strong testimony to the humble G7. So cool!

 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

But is the 3CCD block in the SRW9000 block the same as in the F23?

I dunno, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

Wasn't the SRW900PL the F35 in a broadcast from factor?  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/737286-REG/Sony_SRW_9000PL_SRW_9000PL_HDCAM_SR_Camcorder.html 

So the SRW900 itself with a 2/3" might be based directly upon the F23 and share the same sensor. 

I know the older F900R is the broadcast style body that's older than all of them, and is what the F23 itself was directly based upon but aimed more at cinema shooting. 

In a way the SRW900 is the full loop back from first the F900R (broadcast body) then to F23 (film body) then back to the SRW900 (broadcast body)

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

The sensor in the S35 version is from the F35.

Yup, the upgraded S35 F23 and the F35 is one and the same identical model. 

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Btw F23 and F35, great naming convention regarding sensor gate.:)

Does make them very easy to remember!

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

It took Arri many years to get back to that. They only dared to do so with their majestic Alexa35.:)

haha!

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

That Lenovo deal is isane. @IronFilm

They're offering me now a Thinkpad P73 instead! (because the P71 went missing)  For the same price I have already paid. 

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

I just got myself a 17" sixcore with a rtx2070 for 250 Eu

Wow, that's amazing! Incredible deal. 

Which laptop model is this specifically?

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

due to a reddish spot on the display, which is only visible against a black background. Seller offered me 200 Euro off his original selling price of 450 when he discovered it and emailed me beforehand. Crazy. I hope it will work fine.

It's crazy how much stuff gets discounted for a minor issue. 

Sometimes it's a non-issue you don't care about and you can work around, other times it might be an easy fix if you have the knowhow. (for instance this P71 I originally purchased had a bad battery and charging issues, but a battery is super ultra easy to replace, and probably should be anyway for a laptop of this age. And the charging issue I think should be a very easy fix. Especially as for the P70 the charging port isn't even soldered on! So I wouldn't even need to use the soldering iron to fix that) 

[PannySVHS]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Wasn't the SRW900PL the F35 in a broadcast from factor?  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/737286-REG/Sony_SRW_9000PL_SRW_9000PL_HDCAM_SR_Camcorder.html 

That's what I meant. F35 in an SRW shoulder cam body. You would need another extra board though for 444. Afaik it would still be limited to 10 bit 444 vs 12 bit 444 on the F35. Imagining the F23 sporting 12 bit 444 would indeed make it the one and only queen of all 2/3" cameras with a majestic high end cinema workflow going along.😊 SRW9000 B4 444 version being the empress princess.

A pity that Sony never realized the tapeless recording option for the SRW9000 afaik. The announcement of an announcement is still on their website. Their huge SRW recorder does give the F35 a robust tapeless option, but being much heavier than using an Odyssey or Gemini or other recorders.

 

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

They're offering me now a Thinkpad P73 instead! (because the P71 went missing)  For the same price I have already paid. 

Insane! Would that be a RTX Quadro 5000 inside, 16GB video RAM?😂 Best deal in the universe! Keep us posted! Mine is a HP Omen 17 with a I7 9750H six core and a RTX2070 inside. 250EU is almost as crazy of a deal as two! bumped up LX10 for 120 or so, which I bought 2.5 years ago. But there was only one battery for both of them. Though small, it's still a but.;)

[Clark Nikolai]

On 6/18/2024 at 3:43 AM, Andrew Reid said:

I am currently writing a guide to all the classic digicams from Y2k.

Interesting...

On 6/18/2024 at 3:43 AM, Andrew Reid said:

It has made me think that if the light isn't right and the subject isn't interesting no amount of shallow DOF can make it worthwhile so why bother?

I don't like it either. I suppose it was novel at one point but not now. I follow a YouTube channel located in the French Riviera. Shot with iPhones with the stupid "Portrait mode" which means the backgrounds have that artificial blur added to simulate low DOF. It bugs me because it's a place I've never been and one of the reasons to watch their channel is for the scenery and because of that I can't see the scenery.

https://www.youtube.com/@MeandMonAmi/videos

 

On 6/18/2024 at 3:43 AM, Andrew Reid said:

I also think the modern cameras are just getting too good... too clean, too clinical, too sharp, especially the modern lenses (be it anamorphic or otherwise). And we have had this discussion for about 15 years now and not a single manufacturer has listened.

It's become like the difference that used to exist between video/television and movies. The super crisp sharp look is now associated with real time, documentary or "real" things and the "filmic" look is associated with fiction.

On 6/18/2024 at 3:43 AM, Andrew Reid said:

There is nobody in the modern camera industry fulfilling the niche of analogue / film compact replacement camera other than the y2k CCD digicams. And don't get me started on the desire for a Digital Bolex sequel!

Oh, don't get me started on it either. I was hoping that the Pyxis would be it, and while it looks like a good camera, it isn't a Digital Bolex successor. (It's more a successor to the Micro Cinema Camera.)

In a way there are new cameras that have that look but they start at $20,000. 

[BTM_Pix]

21 minutes ago, Clark Nikolai said:

I follow a YouTube channel located in the French Riviera. Shot with iPhones with the stupid "Portrait mode" which means the backgrounds have that artificial blur added to simulate low DOF.

I really enjoy their stuff but, yeah, the pulsing of the fake focus blur in the background is annoying.

 

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Insane! Would that be a RTX Quadro 5000 inside, 16GB video RAM?😂 Best deal in the universe! Keep us posted!

 I got them to take a photo of the BIOS, as I wanted to check that the BIOS is unlocked:

And from this info I managed to do a bit more sleuthing, and identified the exact model (there are over two thousand models of the Lenovo P73!! Not counting the various Custom-to-Order P73 laptops): https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netbooks/thinkpad-p-series-laptops/thinkpad-p73-type-20qr-20qs/20qs/20qss2p300/pf2bylge/parts/display/buy-now 

And having looked up the parts in it, I can see that it uses the Nvidia P620:

 

Sadly because it is a P73 the GPU is soldered to the motherboard 😞 

So I couldn't upgrade this lowly P620, as I was planning to do with the P71 (as I was thinking to put a Nvidia P3000 into it). 

Although I guess the gap in performance between a P620 and a P3000 isn't the end of the world:

https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-Quadro-P620-vs-Nvidia-Quadro-P3000/m471282vsm264483 

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Quadro-P3000-vs-Quadro-P620_7665_9864.247598.0.html

 

4 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Mine is a HP Omen 17 with a I7 9750H six core and a RTX2070 inside.

What the heck??? You got a one year old beasty gaming machine like that for only 250 euro????? 😮 

Even if you are forced to spend the money on entirely replacing the whole display, that's still an extremely good deal that you got! 

[QuickHitRecord]

On 6/18/2024 at 3:43 AM, Andrew Reid said:

There is nobody in the modern camera industry fulfilling the niche of analogue / film compact replacement camera other than the y2k CCD digicams. And don't get me started on the desire for a Digital Bolex sequel!

Unfortunately, no.

But I think that the EOS-M is getting pretty close. I only bought mine for the 16mm/S16 crop modes. Those are really unique features and I love the look when combined with interesting c-mount lenses. It's been pretty stable since the "Crop Mood" hack came out. The latest news is that developers are working on a whole new UI similar to BlackMagic's to make it a lot easier to use. Also, there is a new "dual mount" for EF-M mount cameras in the works that will allow the use of both manual E-mount lenses and MFT lenses (with the use of a third-part MFT-E adapter) on EF-M cameras. It's cool stuff.

[John Matthews]

Speaking of older cameras... I might have already posted this before, but it's still interesting IMO.

On another note:

I think part of the problem with shallow DOF is that you want to saturate the sensor- you often do that with shallow DOF. The trick is to saturate the sensor and still get the deep DOF to show more. So, you start adding lights and it's tricky as you also want it to appear somewhat natural. Lighting is always key (pun not intended).

[PannySVHS]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

What the heck??? You got a one year old beasty gaming machine like that for only 250 euro????? 😮 

Even if you are forced to spend the money on entirely replacing the whole display, that's still an extremely good deal that you got! 

No, no!😂 It should be a 2020 machine. Guy bought it in 2021. They get sold on ebay for 550 to 600 Euro in this configuration, with a 6 core I7 9570, Rtx 2070 card, 16gb ram, one ssd and the 17" 144Hz display. They guy offered it for a very good price and then discovered the seemingly little flaw with the display and decided to charge minus the amount for a new display and repair repair. It is not a very sturdy Laptop, not close to my older Schenker. But Schenker beasts in that configuration are much pricier. I've had my Schenker for five years now. It still runs Davinci 15 without an extra Gfx card. After a windows update a few years ago it unlawfully ran Davinci Resolve it still does. Grading HD Prores in one node with a lut applied works flawlessly. Before that I was trying to mess around with a GTX 780m, which I had bought for 90 Eur iirc, which in 2019 seemed like a fantastic deal. But the Schenker did not like it and was noisy like an office fan or steam engine before it shut down after two minutes of running Davinci Resolve.😂

I was never really happy with my Desktop 970 but it was my entry ticket into Resolve self teaching homeschool.

I hope everything works out splendid for you with the beefy Lenovo. Keep us posted!