Why I'm not taking my S5ii on holiday.

[zlfan]

a lot of hard buttons, like peaking and zebra. manual focusing in evf is fine as long as I set the evf to bw and the peaking line to thin red lines. battery life is ok too. one battery lasts about 2-3 hours. 

[ac6000cw]

22 hours ago, John Matthews said:

If it were to only take videos, I could make do with the camcorder and a phone. However, I find the phone too limiting and ergonomically a black hole of no return. Like you say, "thread the needle" is the name of the game on holiday and travel. Don't want to get too noticed by family or others. There are a couple of lenses that can make the MFT system unique for this purpose:

1. Olympus 75-300mm, at only 423g, it covers a lot;
2. Panasonic 12-32 kit lens, at 70g, why wouldn't to take it?;
3. A favorite fast prime; there are many- just pick and choose your favorite(s).

There are lots of options and I often find myself in the weeds.

I agree.

For me it's more often the Pana 14-140mm plus fast prime, but I have taken kit zoom+75-300mm+fast prime occasionally if I'm planning a bit of wildlife photography while on vacation.

The combo of small/light lenses and great stabilisation in small bodies like the EM-5, EM-10, GX85 and GX9 is what makes M43 so good for travel.

(I was at a major camera dealer's 'event' yesterday with reps from most of the major brands in attendance, and discussed the lack of a modern GX8/GX85/GX9 using the 25MP sensor etc. with the Panasonic rep. He wasn't disagreeing with me... I also had a quick play with an S9 - ergonomically I'm not impressed, it really needs a grip of some sort and the SmallRig baseplate+grip that was attached to it adds weight and height so you loose part of the point of the smaller body. I think it's a bit too much 'style over usability' for me to be interested in it anymore.)

[John Matthews]

4 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

I also had a quick play with an S9 - ergonomically I'm not impressed, it really needs a grip of some sort and the SmallRig baseplate+grip that was attached to it adds weight and height so you loose part of the point of the smaller body. I think it's a bit too much 'style over usability' for me to be interested in it anymore.)

The S9 seems like a winner... EXCEPT (this list is long). We all wish it were just slightly better in some way, but it's not. Still, Panasonic is selling tons of them I believe. Sadly, it's at the detriment of the MFT line IMO. As you said, the EM-5/GX85 lines just need some small updates. I think the sensor and battery are the major hiccups to get that 25MP sensor in a small body. I'm sure they've been trying, but they haven't had success on getting something "releasable". 

[Ninpo33]

1 hour ago, ac6000cw said:

I also had a quick play with an S9 - ergonomically I'm not impressed, it really needs a grip of some sort and the SmallRig baseplate+grip that was attached to it adds weight and height so you loose part of the point of the smaller body. I think it's a bit too much 'style over usability' for me to be interested in it anymore.)

Lot's of other options for grips though, I think the Sigma FP crowd has shown me the awesome creativity possible when enthusiasts get behind something. I am going to add a small grip but keep it minimal. My GX85 ended up selling for $700 on eBay which was a big surprise to me. I knew prices were going up on small cameras but that was a shocker. 

I just missed out on a Japanese auction for a silver S9 with the pancake lens that went for $1,100 a couple days ago. If I can score one below $1k US I know it will work for me. Shouldn't take too long, Besides Sony, most cameras aren't really holding value very well these days. 

I could be wrong but I really think they might get rid of the record limits on the next firmware update. If not, I can live with it being gimped for just short clips as a BTS/Steet camera useful as a third angle in interviews. Mostly Leica M lenses or fun Anamorphic 6k open gate experiments.

A little brother to the Sigma FP that doesn't shoot 12 bit raw all the time. 

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

A little brother to the Sigma FP that doesn't shoot 12 bit raw all the time. 

I want the green one and I wants it now!

But reality... I sent mine back for a full refund and then bought a used S5ii which also put €200 back into my pocket and aesthetics aside, it's a better camera.

I wish they had launched the S9 at €999 and then I could have swung one as an 'additional camera' and maybe one day I will (I have an unopened box Smallrig cage for one thing) but that simple reality is, as my primary video unit, it's too high risk.

But autofocusing M Mount lenses! 

 

[John Matthews]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I want the green one and I wants it now!

But reality... I sent mine back for a full refund and then bought a used S5ii which also put €200 back into my pocket and aesthetics aside, it's a better camera.

I wish they had launched the S9 at €999 and then I could have swung one as an 'additional camera' and maybe one day I will (I have an unopened box Smallrig cage for one thing) but that simple reality is, as my primary video unit, it's too high risk.

But autofocusing M Mount lenses! 

 

It's really a shame that the pricing is wrong for enthusiasts. It's even worse that Panasonic doesn't really offer any real lenses either. Still, they're selling a bunch; so, someone must be buying them. My guess- people look at it and buy it, never mind the lack of some major photography features. It just looks cool. I'm sure there are lots of trust fund babies who have this camera because they can.

[Ninpo33]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

It's really a shame that the pricing is wrong for enthusiasts. It's even worse that Panasonic doesn't really offer any real lenses either. Still, they're selling a bunch; so, someone must be buying them. My guess- people look at it and buy it, never mind the lack of some major photography features. It just looks cool. I'm sure there are lots of trust fund babies who have this camera because they can.

Just curious, what's the right price for enthusiasts? Is $1,000 good but $1,500 you need a trust fund?

Compared to the Sony ZV-E1 which is probably the closest competition in full frame, The S9 $300 cheaper. And that camera is known as the vlogger camera and the FF entry point into the video space. Even the ZV-E1 doesn't do a lot of the video features that the little S9 can do at ($1,395 on sale right now at B&H)

If you're talking just photo specs and shoot in the studio or do fast moving sports, I get it. But honestly, I see no real issues with how I will use it. 

[Ninpo33]

 

[Ninpo33]

If you want to talk about trust fund cameras I think you are really talking about flagships and Leica's. For someone that has a Rolex or better watch, a little $1,500 Lumix is probably a joke. Yet none of these except the GFX shoot Anamorphic or have the built in LUT's or IBIS the S9 has.

Fuji GFX100ii - $6,700

Fuji 100V - $2,700

Leica Q3 - $6,300

Sony A 1- $6,500 

Hasselblad X-Pan - $5,000 used

[MrSMW]

You would be mad to buy a Fuji X100V at that price when you can get (if you can find one), a VI at retail for less, but those things are now stupidly overpriced for what they are…

I am in that camp that think the S9 is over-priced also. It has some great spec…but has some ‘missing’ spec and for me it felt too toy-like in hand. 

I had to buy and use one to discover this.

The dials etc and sheer build felt inferior to the S5 line which itself feels (and probably is) inferior to the S1 line…as to be expected really because you cannot realistically expect all the bells and whistles for less money.

And that is the point. Next to it’s not that much bigger but better almost everywhere sibling, the S5ii, the S9 is arguably over-priced and so unless size & weight and possibly aesthetics, is the ONLY factor, an S5ii makes far more sense.

That does not stop me liking the S9. It needs either a cage or at least a grip to make it handle, though of course, even with a pancake, it doesn’t really fit into a pocket. Jacket maybe, but not say jeans.

It is highly capable, but for me to justify it, it would need to be below $€£1000 and would have to be designated as a B camera for my needs.

I’d choose it over a Fuji X100VI easily in 2024.

[ac6000cw]

On 8/9/2024 at 10:12 AM, John Matthews said:

As you said, the EM-5/GX85 lines just need some small updates. I think the sensor and battery are the major hiccups to get that 25MP sensor in a small body. I'm sure they've been trying, but they haven't had success on getting something "releasable". 

I'd be quite surprised if there isn't an S9 body with the 25MP M43 sensor inside it somewhere in the labs, but as you say  would it be a commercially sensible product?

But looking at the way the used prices for GX85/GX9/E-M5 iii and OM-5 are holding up, at present there's obviously demand for that size/weight of M43 camera.

[John Matthews]

15 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

If you want to talk about trust fund cameras I think you are really talking about flagships and Leica's. For someone that has a Rolex or better watch, a little $1,500 Lumix is probably a joke. Yet none of these except the GFX shoot Anamorphic or have the built in LUT's or IBIS the S9 has.

Fuji GFX100ii - $6,700

Fuji 100V - $2,700

Leica Q3 - $6,300

Sony A 1- $6,500 

Hasselblad X-Pan - $5,000 used

There are certainly more expensive cameras, I just can't think of any at that price with so many glaring omissions for photography. $1500 was a significant stretch IMO.

[John Matthews]

6 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

But looking at the way the used prices for GX85/GX9/E-M5 iii and OM-5 are holding up, at present there's obviously demand for that size/weight of M43 camera.

Panasonic aren't really playing to their strengths in some ways. To think they were the creators of the GM1 over 10 years ago; now, they can't seem to make it work. It baffles me that they would agree to lose so much money to Fuji and Sony. Meanwhile, OM System keeps selling out of the E-P7 and the OM-5 (a much more capable photo camera than the S9) is going for over 1149 euros. Did Panasonic also shut down the group of engineers who know how to design something small? I swear the S9 was designed by someone in the fashion industry because all the camera engineers were busy. It's as if their prototypes were given to the YouTubers and no engineer (who shoots photos) ever tried.

[Ninpo33]

12 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Did Panasonic also shut down the group of engineers who know how to design something small? I swear the S9 was designed by someone in the fashion industry because all the camera engineers were busy. It's as if their prototypes were given to the YouTubers and no engineer (who shoots photos) ever tried.

I think you're overthinking it. When I see Panasonic and Sony putting all of their flagship tech from 4-5 years ago into smaller and cheaper cameras, (S5ii, S9, ZVe1, ZV10ii, A6700) I just see them offloading parts before they debut something else. We've all been waiting for a S1H successor and so anything less feels disappointing. They've taken too long on all this though and that's part of why it feels like a big nothing burger. Also the fact that they are all having to chase after a different market than our demographic and the different needs of Get Z/ Gen A

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

Also the fact that they are all having to chase after a different market than our demographic and the different needs of Get Z/ Gen A

And that is why I expect the next gen ‘S1’ cameras to be quite conventional in design, as in if the S2H is coming, it won’t be a box like the BS1H or whatever it’s called.

I wonder how many of those things they sold? Can’t be many surely?

I would just like a pro version of the S5ii and I’m done.

[Ninpo33]

16 hours ago, MrSMW said:

And that is why I expect the next gen ‘S1’ cameras to be quite conventional in design, as in if the S2H is coming, it won’t be a box like the BS1H or whatever it’s called.

I wonder how many of those things they sold? Can’t be many surely?

Agreed. 

I was going to pull the trigger on the BS1H when it went on sale to $1995 for a bit last year. Would have been great for my needs but then I learned it had no IBIS and it was an immediate non starter. Why would you build a mini S1H box camera and then take out one of it's most desirable features? Panasonic is weird sometimes...I feel bad for people that bought it, there are a few online used for close to what they were new meanwhile the S1h is 1/4 the price it was when launched. These people are stuck with a dud for sure...

[MrSMW]

I get why they did not include IBIS and maybe there is a space/manufacturing reason and I am aware many filmmaking purists would turn their noses up at such modern frippery…but then there is the factor that for every ‘purist’ you might please (who could simply not use the option or it would make zero difference to their use case regardless) is the nine other sales they didn’t make due to the omission.

I was very interested in the box format also but the lack of stability killed it for me. 

Some folks will say simply use an OIS lens but the reality is less than 5% of lenses have any. Or use a gimbal or tripod. We don’t always want to!

I’m not saying that every piece of kit ever made should be a ‘jack of all trades’ and it’s not just Lumix, but sometimes some brands really do limit their sales and potentially entire brand with some of their decisions.

But what do I know…

Pretty sure though that neither of Lumix’s boxes sold well because you never hear about them.

I’m sure they sold a handful but no way could they have been any kind of success.

Hopefully they have learned from that and will either produce something with greater appeal, or at least make the box as or more appealing than the more trad design.

I do wonder sometimes who makes these decisions in these multi-million (billion) dollar companies when the man in the street says, “well that’s a bit shit”. And does not buy it.

[BTM_Pix]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Pretty sure though that neither of Lumix’s boxes sold well because you never hear about them.

I’m sure they sold a handful but no way could they have been any kind of success.

Watching the Olympics and seeing the bullet time replay systems they had set up at most of the  events, I thought that Olympic Broadcasting Services must have bought shit loads of them and it might spark a resurgence, albeit niche, of interest in them.

On closer inspection, they were Z-Cam.

Considering that Panasonic are an actual sponsor of the Olympics, that must’ve been a kick in the knackers.

 

[MrSMW]

And they aren’t exactly cheap still retailing around 3.5k new and 2.5k used whereas S1H’s can now be had for under 1.5k.

I guess due to volume and whilst you can arguably rig up the box better, it has less real world features than the S1H.

[Ninpo33]

6 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

And they aren’t exactly cheap still retailing around 3.5k new and 2.5k used whereas S1H’s can now be had for under 1.5k.

I guess due to volume and whilst you can arguably rig up the box better, it has less real world features than the S1H.

The people selling them have been really highlighting the networking capabilities and I can understand the usefulness for multicam shoots. That’s the reasoning behind no IBIS and it makes sense. However if they would have just given us a small screen and IBIS it would have sold really well in my opinion. 
 

Bit the used market is flooded with S model cameras and the newer models are cheaper and have better specs so it’s a tough spot to be in for trying to sell older used Lumix gear. But you already know that ; )