the worlds of arri and red are shaken by bm

[zlfan]

 

 

an interesting comment:

 

"I recently shot a commercial project using an Alexa 35 LF with Arri Master Primes for my A-Cam and the BMCC FF with Sigma 24-70mm photo lens as my B-cam. When I put the two shots by side and graded to match, I’m just saying the images were almost indistinguishable in quality. It just is what it is. The game has changed now and the rest of the industry has caught up to manufacturers like RED and ARRI if you’re talking strictly about image from the sensor. And what differences are there are definitely nowhere near worth the added price you’d pay for the RED. It’s just true."

 

[zlfan]

imagine in 5-10 years, a flock of hybrids can do in camera raw, just like gh7, but either ff or s35 or s16 or all three modes in one body, with good ibis, reliable c-af, maybe arri alexa35 will be only used for niche projects. 

[kye]

4 hours ago, zlfan said:

 

 

an interesting comment:

 

"I recently shot a commercial project using an Alexa 35 LF with Arri Master Primes for my A-Cam and the BMCC FF with Sigma 24-70mm photo lens as my B-cam. When I put the two shots by side and graded to match, I’m just saying the images were almost indistinguishable in quality. It just is what it is. The game has changed now and the rest of the industry has caught up to manufacturers like RED and ARRI if you’re talking strictly about image from the sensor. And what differences are there are definitely nowhere near worth the added price you’d pay for the RED. It’s just true."

 

This was true with RED and yet it barely made any penetration into the industry.

It almost makes you think that the image coming out of the camera isn't the thing that determines the fate of the brand.....

[Benjamin Hilton]

Too true. Arri targets the feature film and commercial industry. Those industries have absolutely no incentive to use BM or anything cheaper. The rental cost of an Arri is one of the smallest line items in their budgets. Why would they experiment with something that saves a few bucks on the rental when they have years of experience, trust, rigging etc all geared around their usuals cameras of choice? You technically could shoot a movie with a BM camera or an FX30 or a bunch of other cameras, but why would you unless you need something small for a specific shot? It's like saying your such and such street car can go the same speed on a drag strip as an F1 car so they're going to dominate the F1 industry here pretty soon. Um, no. Why would they? 

[ac6000cw]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Hilton said:

Why would they experiment with something that saves a few bucks on the rental when they have years of experience, trust, rigging etc all geared around their usuals cameras of choice?

Yes, it's a version of the 'no one gets fired for buying IBM' situation - it's all about minimizing the (large) financial risks in high-end production. A very different situation from a one/few person production company doing filming and post-production in-house with their own relatively low-cost workflow (e.g. using Blackmagic cameras and software).

[zlfan]

when the new generation dps grow and move up the ladder, they may prefer the latest hybrids more and more as they are used to ibis and c-af. 

[PPNS]

serious question, what is your background zlfan? 
 

you keep making the same comparison threads and theyre all pointless. if you’re good at making moving images, all you need is a camera with at least a decent codec (10 bit 4:2:2, and ideally with a log profile). Once that threshold is met, you can start thinking about the actual important facets of the job. 
 

maybe documentary based dps will go towards newer hybrids for their assisting features, but other ones will probably never care. If you’re shooting in a context where you get to call yourself the dp, the implication is there already: you’re the head of a department. You already have an assistant delegated to getting the focus right. Ibis will never be as good as a dedicated means to have certain camera movements

[zlfan]

1 hour ago, PPNS said:

serious question, what is your background zlfan? 
 

you keep making the same comparison threads and theyre all pointless. if you’re good at making moving images, all you need is a camera with at least a decent codec (10 bit 4:2:2, and ideally with a log profile). Once that threshold is met, you can start thinking about the actual important facets of the job. 
 

maybe documentary based dps will go towards newer hybrids for their assisting features, but other ones will probably never care. If you’re shooting in a context where you get to call yourself the dp, the implication is there already: you’re the head of a department. You already have an assistant delegated to getting the focus right. Ibis will never be as good as a dedicated means to have certain camera movements

I do news and events. I am an one man band. 

[zlfan]

1 hour ago, PPNS said:

serious question, what is your background zlfan? 
 

you keep making the same comparison threads and theyre all pointless. if you’re good at making moving images, all you need is a camera with at least a decent codec (10 bit 4:2:2, and ideally with a log profile). Once that threshold is met, you can start thinking about the actual important facets of the job. 
 

maybe documentary based dps will go towards newer hybrids for their assisting features, but other ones will probably never care. If you’re shooting in a context where you get to call yourself the dp, the implication is there already: you’re the head of a department. You already have an assistant delegated to getting the focus right. Ibis will never be as good as a dedicated means to have certain camera movements

I think you are right, in big budget feature, the established workflow is already very good. a camera with 10 bit 422 or 12 bit raw, steadicam, dolly, jib, lighting, etc are actually good enough. as the environment is controlled, I doubt that alexa35's 17 stops dr is truly essential over the 12-year old Alexa ev except the newer cameras may be less prone to onsite errors. 

[kye]

21 minutes ago, zlfan said:

I do news and events. I am an one man band. 

This is why.

I've heard from the pros that at the first production meeting of a large project, like movie or TV show, there is a moment where someone asks "what are we shooting on?" and if the answer is "Alexa" then everyone breathes a sigh of relief, and if it's not "Alexa" then there is an anxious conversation about it.

If you have the most awesome camera in the entire universe, and no-one has ever worked with it before, it's still a risk to the production.  "Alexa" is the answer that tells everyone there is one less risk in the project.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, PPNS said:

serious question, what is your background zlfan? 

you keep making the same comparison threads and (...)

It's a good question indeed... : )

Much appreciate the serious tone too I fully concur for the subject matter.

That said, I guess the OP does it for fun : P

As much as I like to think on topic since 90s at least...

And moreover, teaching and guiding some other people about it.

And even to be paid for it for three decades already with credits along mainstream players.

I salute OP's attitude not all the time when nonsense pops up such as those claims about 24fps death against the rise of 4K/60p as a specific look of today if any. Let's call it a matter of taste though LOL ; ) However, looks to me some fresh individual with a promising future ahead for the passion and commitment involved.

So, kudos there for that free, smart and brave spirit which this industry has been made from, let alone the indies world and this corner.

:- )

[Emanuel]

3 minutes ago, kye said:

This is why.

I've heard from the pros that at the first production meeting of a large project, like movie or TV show, there is a moment where someone asks "what are we shooting on?" and if the answer is "Alexa" then everyone breathes a sigh of relief, and if it's not "Alexa" then there is an anxious conversation about it.

If you have the most awesome camera in the entire universe, and no-one has ever worked with it before, it's still a risk to the production.  "Alexa" is the answer that tells everyone there is one less risk in the project.

Very true. But this can also mean the guys behind are more of the same, so no risk no story ;- )

[Emanuel]

Brands have no place in the indie world or should not have.

- EAG :- )

[kye]

47 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Very true. But this can also mean the guys behind are more of the same, so no risk no story ;- )

True, although being pragmatic about decisions is also useful, and any time/energy you spend on learning a new camera is time/energy you could have spent on story or production design or lighting etc.

[Emanuel]

7 minutes ago, kye said:

True, although being pragmatic about decisions is also useful, and any time/energy you spend on learning a new camera is time/energy you could have spent on story or production design or lighting etc.

Yeah, it's truly a pain, I always tend to avoid rentals because of that, no need at all when Blackmagic cameras coexist for a fraction of the cost of other cinema cameras : ) IMO This manufacturer delivered what RED promised :- )

Glad Arri is there but Blackmagic Design is the one indies have to praise. In this business makes a whole difference :- )

[kye]

15 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Yeah, it's truly a pain, I always tend to avoid rentals because of that, no need at all when Blackmagic cameras coexist for a fraction of the cost of other cinema cameras : ) IMO This manufacturer delivered what RED promised :- )

Glad Arri is there but Blackmagic Design is the one indies have to praise. In this business makes a whole difference :- )

I totally agree that BM cameras are really good for the small budget production / owner-operators - great image quality for modest investment.

As soon as you get into the world where you're paying people minimum award wages then camera rental costs become insignificant and you're better off going with whatever the standard is for your genre (Alexa for narrative / studio, and Sony or Canon for doc work) either because the people that are involved will be familiar with them or that getting familiar with them would be a plus for getting chosen for larger projects.

[Emanuel]

33 minutes ago, kye said:

I totally agree that BM cameras are really good for the small budget production / owner-operators - great image quality for modest investment.

As soon as you get into the world where you're paying people minimum award wages then camera rental costs become insignificant and you're better off going with whatever the standard is for your genre (Alexa for narrative / studio, and Sony or Canon for doc work) either because the people that are involved will be familiar with them or that getting familiar with them would be a plus for getting chosen for larger projects.

In certain gigs, the higher the best. Affordable gear doesn't help to maximize the price of the wages. And this is actually what is going on a lot on this plot why the most expensive gear is invariably a good choice ; )

But when you operate just for the sake of the art or strictly making a living from the art, that premise doesn't put food on your table per se.

To someone who has already produced a feature film shot on Arri which has been praised and supported by the mainstream of the British Film industry, both routes can really help but the latter always come as secondary and under certain circumstances, never as primary. So, it's a bit upside down the idea people outside tend to retain.

- EAG

[zlfan]

hcb used m3 and created a new area of photo journalism. 

I always wanted to have m3 equivalent for video news. now go pro 12, and maybe s9 are possibly the tools for this. 

Alexa is like lf at the time of hcb, nobody has doubt about the lf cameras. they are good for something, but new tools create new areas. 

exciting time. 

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, zlfan said:

hcb used m3 and created a new area of photo journalism. 

I always wanted to have m3 equivalent for video news. now go pro 12, and maybe s9 are possibly the tools for this. 

Alexa is like lf at the time of hcb, nobody has doubt about the lf cameras. they are good for something, but new tools create new areas. 

exciting time. 

Indeed, I'd only forget the GoPro H12 and would wait to see what the next version will offer in a couple of months unless you go with the Back-Bone mod or buy the Ace Pro then, much more interesting really : ) FX30 is unbeatable to my book comparing with the S9 but what do I really know when I am just buying it these days? ;- )

[eatstoomuchjam]

This seemed timely and relevant to me because of the discussion of documentary stuff in this thread.  Some talk about the A cameras used for the most documentaries that made it into Sundance this year.  The list is topped by the FX9, the C300 II, and the FS7.