Super Members BTM_Pix Posted July 10 Super Members Share Posted July 10 Feature list here (lifted off a sales page so may include hyperbole) : Powerful 26 Megapixel APS-C Exmor R CMOS sensor Designed for vloggers, content creators, & streamers 3” Vari-angle Touch Screen allows touch focus, tracking & shutter Shoot in 4K at 60 frames per second (oversampled from 6K) S-Cinetone picture profile, cinematic vlog settings, & creative looks Get creative in post-production with 10-bit 4:2:2 colour sampling Improved Active Mode with focus breathing compensation Capture fast-paced moments with continuous shooting up to 11 fps More than 70 compatible Sony lenses, from wide-angle to telezoom Upgraded Real-time Eye AF system recognises humans, animals, & birds The dedicated bokeh switch creates a defocused background Product Showcase mode for quick & accurate transitions Upgraded internal directional microphone for improved audio £999 with the new 16-50mm OIS power zoom lens or £925 body only. Still no IBIS but the e-stablisation looks decent and the kit lens has OIS so I don't see it as a big deal for its target market as it certainly didn't deter them buying the mark 1 version in their droves. An FX30 for cheap really and I think they'll sell bucketloads. S9 or this at two thirds of the price with a lens included ? I think its a really tough sell for Panasonic for that market now, particularly considering the lack of appropriately sized L mount lenses for the S9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 49 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: I think its a really tough sell for Panasonic for that market now, particularly considering the lack of appropriately sized L mount lenses for the S9. A bit of a blunder to say the least, but more so trying to convince us a manual focus only f8 lens was something that has been demanded. Maybe on Planet Thargon 9, but not on this one. L Mount has some really great primes but is really lacking in compact full frame fast zooms, mainly at the longer end. The case for this thing though is are you invested in the Sony ecosystem or the Lumix one, or starting from scratch? If L Mount, of course you would not much care but otherwise, you might very well give it a go. Plus also, if we're being 'fair', the S9 is full frame and this Sony isn't, so if you stick the Sigma APSC 18-50mm f2.8 on it (the S9), it puts things back in favour of the S9 for me. That Sigma lens also works on the Sony. Decent release I'd say. I'm waiting for my S9 however 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac6000cw Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 From DPReview's 'Initial Review' - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-zv-e10-ii-initial-review Quote All the camera's 4K modes are taken from a 1.1x cropped region of the sensor and derived from 5.6K capture. There's no in-body stabilization in the camera, so digital stabilization applies a further 1.33x crop, meaning the 16-50mm kit lens ends up giving a 35mm equiv field of view, at its widest, if you want to use more than just the lenses' optical shake correction. So in 4K with digital stabilization, that's total crop of 1.45x (out of an APS-C sensor, so it's close to being a 12MP M43 sensor equivalent when digital IS is enabled). But it's cheap for a 10-bit 4K60p large-sensor camera and the 4K rolling shutter should be decent. (Why do Sony - and some others - persist in fitting low-res 1.04 million dot screens to their cameras? At least the S9 has a decent 1.84 million dot screen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlfan Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 i think s9 is much more enticing, as it is only $500 more expensive than this one, but with the best full frame ibis, and is full frame if only ibis no eis high. if go ibis plus eis high, s9 is s35, but very usable for handheld footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 3 hours ago, ac6000cw said: (Why do Sony - and some others - persist in fitting low-res 1.04 million dot screens to their cameras? At least the S9 has a decent 1.84 million dot screen) Valid point and put me off all Sony cameras until the A7RV. Anything under 2.1 is not great IMO and reckon even that of the S9/S5ii is a bit cheap as someone who works off the rear LCD stills and video. S1H was/is MUCH better. Another point against the new Sony and another point to the Lumix. Plus because I bought one, I have to favour it 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 The names of these cameras are chosen by Satan himself. Damn them! MrSMW 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newfoundmass Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 3 hours ago, zlfan said: i think s9 is much more enticing, as it is only $500 more expensive than this one, but with the best full frame ibis, and is full frame if only ibis no eis high. if go ibis plus eis high, s9 is s35, but very usable for handheld footage. $500 is a lot of money. ---- I think the hype for this is (as usual) overblown BUT there aren't a ton of options at this price point, making it enticing for a very specific audience. I do feel as though we are moving backwards and heading towards Canon cripple hammer territory taking things like IBIS away (not that Sony IBIS is very good to begin with.) What I really wish Lumix would take from this release is THE POWER ZOOM. GIVE US SOME, PLZ. ac6000cw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 13 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: An FX30 for cheap really and I think they'll sell bucketloads. That was my first thought too, the FX30 still is priced kinda "high" (well, relatively speaking vs RRP. There have been no big sales, and even secondhand prices are still very close to RRP). So the Sony ZV-E10 Mk2 with internal 10bit 422 makes it basically a nearly half priced FX30, perfectly suited for any no-pro (or pros on a super frugal budget). As the average user won't need the bonus features of the FX30. (and especially anybody who leans more into photography, and thus wouldn't be wanting the FX30 anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 6 hours ago, kye said: Sony practically doesn't give a shit about overheating. In fact, it is now a trademark. It seems here in Italy in the summer you can't use the camera at home. kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, Davide DB said: Sony practically doesn't give a shit about overheating. In fact, it is now a trademark. It seems here in Italy in the summer you can't use the camera at home. Absolutely. I once overheated an iPhone shooting in direct sun in probably 40-43C (104-110F), and considering that iPhones overheating is something that is practically unheard of, overheating is something I pay a lot of attention to. Emanuel and Davide DB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted July 11 Author Super Members Share Posted July 11 How does it compare to the Mark 1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 30 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: How does it compare to the Mark 1? GU covers you 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted July 11 Author Super Members Share Posted July 11 16 minutes ago, Davide DB said: GU covers you 😉 Not particularly to be honest. There is no comparison to the overheating performance of the Mark 1 and in his actual review of the Mark 1 he writes off any overheating concerns in literally a single second. And yet in this review of the Mark II he devotes around 30% of the whole video to it. Curious, no ? The thing is that the original Mk I actually had a widely reported (and click baited) furore around overheating which his review singularly failed to mention let alone highlight. Interestingly, it was actually one of the few reviews where he actually went outside with a camera and used it like someone would, so that may be related. The furore around the Mark 1 (fuelled in large part by people using it for two hour live streams) went away with the combination of the High setting, the screen flipped out and the use of dummy batteries. So, the latter points the finger firmly at the issue being the battery/chamber. Now the Mark II has a completely different battery and chamber so it is really relevant to understand whether the performance in terms of overheating is different and whether the same mitigation works. Like all the cameras that I have ever seen labelled with an "oh my God this is fatal" overheating "issue", I'm always wondering how many camera shops are overwhelmed with returns of them and the manufacturers having to withdraw them from sale as that reality doesn't seem to chime with the pearl clutching. In the case of the Mark I, it is extremely popular with its target audience, which strongly suggests that the real world usage of them by those people isn't unduly impacted by this, so if the Mark II is markedly worse or different then it is incumbent on "reviewers" to contrast and compare. These tests tell us nothing about real world performance not least because they do not take into account recovery time, which is the biggest debilitating factor in evaluating overheating. Once again, I find myself bewildered by how many people consider him as some sort of gold standard of reviewer. At the very least, the disparity between less than one second of evaluation of the overheating of the Mark I and five whole minutes on the Mark II warrants some sort of evaluation. Maybe overheating didn't drive the clicks in the same way when the Mark I was released. IronFilm and eatstoomuchjam 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 IIRC GU started to give importance to overheating just recently. IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac6000cw Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 DPReview have changed/corrected their comment about crop levels in different modes: Quote All the camera's 4K modes are taken from oversampled capture: 6K for modes up to 30p and 5.6K (with a 1.1x crop) for the 50 and 60p modes. There's no in-body stabilization in the camera, so digital stabilization applies a further 1.33x crop, meaning the 16-50mm kit lens ends up giving a 32mm equiv field of view, at its widest, if you want to use more than just the lenses' optical shake correction, and 35mm equiv in the high framerate modes. IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, Davide DB said: GU covers you 😉 You cannot Unsee his Insanely White Teeth, once you notice them. So Basically this camera is an Unreliable FX30 with massive overheating issued in Real Shooting Conditions (not under controlled environments). With No IBIS and a few other strange issues. Davide DB and IronFilm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: Now the Mark II has a completely different battery and chamber so it is really relevant to understand whether the performance in terms of overheating is different and whether the same mitigation works. Like all the cameras that I have ever seen labelled with an "oh my God this is fatal" overheating "issue", I'm always wondering how many camera shops are overwhelmed with returns of them and the manufacturers having to withdraw them from sale as that reality doesn't seem to chime with the pearl clutching. I wonder about this too. A few mitigating factors come to mind: Lots of the worlds population lives in areas that don't exceed 33C for 28 minutes a year, so they're automatically in the clear Lots of the worlds population in warmer parts don't go out, especially adventuring, during the middle of the day, so those folks will only be bringing it out on those balmy evenings when it's cocktail hour (besides, golden hour is better for that glam lifestyle image) Lots of people who do experience overheating might experience it on holiday, and potentially not until some time has elapsed since purchase, which combined with apathy or warranty limits or social anxiety might just put it in a drawer or sell second hand rather than return it Lots of the more informed buyers would just avoid buying it in the first place, such as myself, simply because I want a tool to be reliable and it's worth something to me to have a camera that's 100% not going to overheat, rather than one that is almost 100% not going to overheat, even if in reality that might be twice a year It might be that these factors alone mean that the shops aren't overwhelmed. The violent outrage about such things, even from people who might not buy one, is useful to encourage manufacturers not to gradually slide into giving us cameras that overheat in 1 minute in temps over 12C. It also 'encourages' the very shop-keepers who might sell a thing like this to mention this during the sales process, and upsell the FX30, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted July 11 Author Super Members Share Posted July 11 Or the whole thing is completely overblown because four minutes of shock content on that is far easier to produce than four minutes of representative content produced by light from the great outdoors actually hitting the sensor. I'm absolutely no fan of this fella but this is a far more representative real world performance evaluation (queued up to overheating section). In looking at that section, he didn't have the screen out and maybe the fro was acting as a shade and no mention is made of recovery time and would have been better using a dummy battery in that situation etc etc. So, despite this looking far more indicative of what to expect when actually using it then, again, as I say, without any explanation of the mitigation/recovery it still leaves question marks. Funnily enough, I was in a real life camera shop (well plural actually) a couple of days ago with @Andrew Reid as we were looking for an S9 and talking to the staff about what its like etc and they didn't have a clue. Not because they're not knowledgable, its just that they don't get any hands on with any of them until months later if at all as its now all about just pre-orders getting collected. They don't have any training courses or even reps from the manufacturers coming to visit to show them the cameras any more either. Everything is about the first few weeks leading up to and following the online launch and getting those pre-orders in. The whole business now - and this direction is driven entirely by the manufacturers - is all about direct marketing through YouTube and other "influencers" and it is a complete disgrace that people are getting so short changed by shallow first look "reviews" and such obviously dubious relationships. Its difficult enough for bricks and mortar camera shops to keep going without wasting the experience and knowledge of the staff and reducing the experience of dealing with customers to just handing over a pre-ordered box that has been bought on the say so of some bearded dick in a baseball cap who is in the pocket of the manufacturer. I don't know who was more depressed about the conversation we had about the situation, the two of them behind the counter or the two of us on the other side of it. eatstoomuchjam, IronFilm, Davide DB and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eatstoomuchjam Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 6 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: These tests tell us nothing about real world performance not least because they do not take into account recovery time, which is the biggest debilitating factor in evaluating overheating. We shouldn't overlook this. For many use cases for a camera, this is one of the most important things. For a shooter that is doing long form interviews/talking head content and concerts, 12 or 20 minutes before overheating is a big deal. For any vlogging that I've ever done, it's usually in the form of several-minute takes followed by several minutes when I'm not rolling. For narrative, the camera is usually rolling for less than 10 minutes for any given take and there are usually at least 3-4 minutes between takes (and more like 5-10 minutes between setups). The R5, with its original firmware, was a problem for this since its recovery time was based on a timer instead of sensors. Otherwise, most cameras (including this one, probably) don't end up overheating on set. It's also worth mention that at some of the temperatures where overheating becomes a problem for some cameras, it will also be a problem for the talent. 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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