Is DR that important?

[eatstoomuchjam]

Digital projection isn't always a bad thing, especially not now.  I was so excited to see Hateful 8 on 65mm film projected on an IMAX screen, but I arrived after the film had been at the theater for more than a week and by then, the projectionists who were presumably completely unfamiliar with how to handle film had basically wrecked the print and the whole thing looked like garbage. 

Same theater, digital prints?  Looking great.  Same film, watched on my TV later?  Looked great.

I'm definitely not saying that digital projection looks better than a pristine print on film - but after a few weeks in the cruel hands of teenage theater employees, digital can look a lot better.

 

I'm still in the category of people who find magic in seeing a film reflecting off of an enormous screen in a darkened theater.  I just also make sure to only go when the place isn't packed so that the other people around me ruin the experience (also one of the reasons that I went to see Hateful 8 a while after it opened).

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I'm still in the category of people who find magic in seeing a film reflecting off of an enormous screen in a darkened theater.

I am somewhat nostalgic for that but the reality for me is that the experience these days is a bit shit.

Living in France and being a native English speaker, I want to see movies in their original language, ie, English and they do show them, usually one night a week in VO, - version originale…but insist on putting French subtitles which makes viewing painful.

The places are usually pretty empty and one time we were the only people there. I think that was Napoleon, the last we went to see.

You can purchase a few over-priced, very limited choice snacks, but we bring our own.

The picture quality always seems trash and that combined with the subtitles, just kills it for me.

It may be different outside of rural France but for the time being at least, I’m not going no matter what the release is and these days, it comes out on rental very soon after.

 

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

14 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I am somewhat nostalgic for that but the reality for me is that the experience these days is a bit shit.

Living in France and being a native English speaker, I want to see movies in their original language, ie, English and they do show them, usually one night a week in VO, - version originale…but insist on putting French subtitles which makes viewing painful.

The places are usually pretty empty and one time we were the only people there. I think that was Napoleon, the last we went to see.

You can purchase a few over-priced, very limited choice snacks, but we bring our own.

The picture quality always seems trash and that combined with the subtitles, just kills it for me.

It may be different outside of rural France but for the time being at least, I’m not going no matter what the release is and these days, it comes out on rental very soon after.

 

 

Your experience is pretty dead-on for most of the features here in not-rural Minnesota in the US.  A bunch of theaters are closing around here because the experience became such shit.  A friend of mine owns two theaters and said that a lot of them have been jacking their prices sky-high because the landlords keep increasing the rent.  He's apparently been able to avoid the worst of it and keep prices (relatively) reasonable where 2 people could reasonably see a film with drinks/popcorn for about $40-50.  At a lot of other theaters in the area, that's a $70-80 night out.  Bonkers.  Minimum wage here is $15/hour so a night out at the films with a partner for someone earning that is nearly an entire shift's wages after taxes.

I spent months at a time abroad, mostly in areas speaking Spanish and Portuguese.  My Spanish is passable in conversation, but not nearly enough to watch a dubbed film where mouths aren't aligning with words.  My Portuguese is enough to read well, but to be completely lost in anything but the most basic conversation.  It's usually a big pain to find films that are subtitled - and in some Latin American countries, one can't even buy movie tickets online without a national ID so you just have to show up to the theater and hope to get decent seats.

Anyway.  Totally feel the pain of trying to go to the theater in another country.

Still feel some magic to seeing things projected big on a shiny screen.  😄

[Emanuel]

On 7/13/2024 at 5:32 AM, MrSMW said:

Living in France and being a native English speaker, I want to see movies in their original language, ie, English and they do show them, usually one night a week in VO, - version originale…but insist on putting French subtitles which makes viewing painful.
 

LOL That made me produce a good laugh... : ) Man, you're in France, what are you expecting to? : D

 

Praise your luck 'cause what makes really painful is dubbing which should literally be forbidden, unless expressly authorised by the author(s).

It's truly a serious attempt much more worse offense against humankind and this world we live in 2024, no less than a few others than this age made by media tell to ignorant people who don't distinguish a cow capable of harmless milk supply from a raging bull, less than half century later from a lot of stuff popping up in the meantime... ; )

Speaking of devil, do you know that was Mussolini who invented it?

[Emanuel]

I wrote "capable" but I should have written «prone» instead ;- )

A last comment on topic... Never thought to arrive to 2024 and see it prior to a century ago : X For real :- )

[MrSMW]

33 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Man, you're in France, what are you expecting

I know, they are French, they do it deliberately, but not to put French subtitles on English language movies intended for English speaking audiences because it's highly distracting.

They don't put English subtitles on French language movies...

Now I don't mind subtitles on TV and watch a lot of foreign language stuff on Netflix such as stuff from Scandinavian countries, Poland, Germany and France because it's unwatchable otherwise, and dubbing, yeah, just no!

[Emanuel]

6 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I know, they are French, they do it deliberately, but not to put French subtitles on English language movies intended for English speaking audiences because it's highly distracting.

They don't put English subtitles on French language movies...

Now I don't mind subtitles on TV and watch a lot of foreign language stuff on Netflix such as stuff from Scandinavian countries, Poland, Germany and France because it's unwatchable otherwise, and dubbing, yeah, just no!

No, they're mainly targeted for Portuguese who never had dubbing 'cause we'd rather go overseas and make children abroad... LOL Just kiddin' : ) the fact is there's still who has idea of what a piece of art is ; )

[Superka]

On 7/11/2024 at 2:07 AM, zlfan said:

what is the dr of an iphone 15 screen? dr of an ipad 10? dr of a mac book air m2?

 

from the data acquisition to data presentation, what is the bottle neck now, in terms of dr?

Common IPS TV/monitor has contrast ratio of 1000 which 10stops.

Common VA  TV/monitor panel has native contrast of 6000 which is about 12.5 stops

OLEDs has 1 000 000 of contrast which is ... enough

Modern devices with IPS Mini-LED has contrast about 10 000 (+/-5000) which is 13-14 stops

 

8 stops is bad DR by any standard. DR is very important for me. Sony Fullframe's S-log2 DR is the minimum I accept (sometimes not enough) S-log3 is fine for me, but I'd take happily even more.

This is just for family video.  

 

[kye]

4 hours ago, Superka said:

This is just for family video.  

The irony is that family video isn't "JUST" anything.  

It's shooting uncontrolled scenes, in mixed and poor CRI lighting, with subjects in full-sun, with scenes involving direct sun and deep shadows, camera moving between interior and exterior, and compositions often include the sun in shot during sunrise and sunset but also need to render subjects.

Subjects will often not be wearing make-up, will be tired or red with activity or sunburn, and aren't used to seeing themselves on video and may be sensitive about how they look, especially combined with non-flattering lighting and camera angles.

The skillset required to edit and colour grade in post to mitigate these factors is likely to be absent in comparison to professional productions of all budgets.

Family video is the single most technically difficult genre to shoot, bar none.

.... and yet, the cameras to do it are the least capable of all types available.

[zlfan]

 

[zlfan]

i know now why so many latest movies have so many dark scenes.

my current understanding is that the camera is operated at the highest level of dr possible, mostly using log, so most dps use 60% to 70% ire for high light protection. then colorists may increase black level in post too to add the contrast. the final results are contrasty, color-rich, and, have high dr (high dr is normally not associated with high contrast high saturation style), at the expense of looking dark.  

[zlfan]

possibly this workflow is trying to take advantage of the more dr stops under the 18% mid grey in most cameras. basically, the "new mid grey" shifts to the darker side, to maintain the high dr and keep the highlight rolling off, and to keep certain levels of contrast and saturation to please ordinary human eyes. 

[zlfan]

seems to me, in theory, this mid grey shifting approach makes many cameras' useful dr very close to alexa. very clever detour. the achillie's heel is that the end viewers' monitors have to have very good black levels. in other words, the end monitors need to have dr distribution similar to these cameras that have more dr stops under the 18% mid grey. if this kind of monitors get popular, the advantage of alexa cameras will diminish. 

[zlfan]

the new tv series warrior has so many dark scenes. it is understandable that this series is about ganster, crime, etc. but still too dark for the whole series. the John wick series is the same. 

cannot find the camera info for warrior. John wick was shot in Alexa cameras. so Alexa cameras also want to explore deep Into the darkness to maintain its highlight rolling off legacy. everyone is doing this dr rat race. the new landmark of the current era cinematography style. lol.  

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, zlfan said:

the new tv series warrior has so many dark scenes

Too many productions are too dark IMO...

We are currently watching 2 series on Apple TV; Servant and The Lady In The Lake.

My missus keeps asking why no one ever switches any lights on in their houses.

And can she have subtitles on because some characters speak with such muffled and mumbled voices...

"It's high level art dear, you don't understand".

In reality, I think it gets pushed too far sometimes and that is to the detriment of the viewer.

[zlfan]

32 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Too many productions are too dark IMO...

We are currently watching 2 series on Apple TV; Servant and The Lady In The Lake.

My missus keeps asking why no one ever switches any lights on in their houses.

And can she have subtitles on because some characters speak with such muffled and mumbled voices...

"It's high level art dear, you don't understand".

In reality, I think it gets pushed too far sometimes and that is to the detriment of the viewer.

totally agree. 

"It's high level art dear, you don't understand". lol

I guess the true reason behind this trend is that low budget cameras are so good, like black magic bmpcc ff, Lumix s1h, etc, that Alexa users, i.e., big production dps, have to use dr as the differentiator, just like bokeh, etc, to separate themselves from low end indie makers. the problem is that they can not control the viewers' environments, like the black levels on viewers' monitors, the ambient light in the viewing environment, etc.

nowadays, I like news, sports, and commercial shots more, as they just look normal, the colors are rich, the contrast is fine, and the exposure just looks all right.  

 

[Ilkka Nissila]

On 7/13/2024 at 7:32 AM, MrSMW said:

Living in France and being a native English speaker, I want to see movies in their original language, ie, English and they do show them, usually one night a week in VO, - version originale…but insist on putting French subtitles which makes viewing painful.

How about seeing it as a way to learn French (if you're an English-speaker)? In Finland usually international programs on TV and in the movies are not dubbed, instead they present subtitles in Finnish or Swedish (the other national language). With digital TV and/or streaming, you can in some cases choose the language of the subtitles or turn them off. But seeing all those English and American shows and movies gave the Finnish people pretty good knowledge in English, which is useful today. Similarly one could learn German or Swedish, if motivated, by listening to the words and reading the subtitles as we're used to doing. But I guess if one is not used to subtitles then it can be annoying? I think on a traditional 4:3 box the subtitled fitted in nicely but with the widescreen shows, especially with streaming, sometimes the subtitles take up too much space (in some apps one can adjust the font size).

 

Anyway the silver lining with subtitles is that you can simultaneously absorb the same information in two languages which can help with learning those languages. The problem in Europe is that many of the larger countries use dubbing so the original sound is not presented which I think is a bit of a crime. Anyway, as TV screens get larger, maybe one can at some point see the subtitles outside of the picture area and so the text would not overlap the image area. For me the subtitles generally are not a problem except in those cases where there is some strange language in the original voicetrack which the audience is not expected to understand, then English subtitles in the original, and finally Finnish (or whatever is the viewer's expected language) subtitles over on top of that or in top/bottom parts of the frame, leading to not much clean picture area being seen for those scenes. 😉 That's bad ...

 

As for the presentation of movies on a projected screen, I have not noticed any quality issues over time in the Helsinki theatres. I don't remember when I last saw an actual film projector, they've been digital for a while now. I think a big part of the experience is that one has to focus on the film rather than having refrigerator breaks or pausing the film for whatever excuse, so the timeline is fixed and you cannot not watch it unless you close your eyes and ears, or leave the theatre. So the film is presented as intended as a whole, with little or no distractions. Of course, the screen is also bigger than most people's TV screens in terms of angle of the visual field, but that can be a positive or a negative depending on where you sit and how your eyesight is (I wear varifocals so if the screen is really big I have to turn my head around to see things sharply). Today, with television having so many channels, and streaming platforms, there is so much material available that the choice of what to watch is diluted, whereas with going to the movies in the theatre, one has to make a clear choice and think about what one wants to see, which can be a good thing. Too many options can be a problem IMO. The quality of those options can suffer from the vast quantity available, and choosing to see some film doesn't even result in necessarily seeing the whole film; one can stop watching when one feels like it, and move to something else, which makes the whole experience less special and less memorable.

[Benjamin Hilton]

7 hours ago, zlfan said:

totally agree. 

"It's high level art dear, you don't understand". lol

I guess the true reason behind this trend is that low budget cameras are so good, like black magic bmpcc ff, Lumix s1h, etc, that Alexa users, i.e., big production dps, have to use dr as the differentiator, just like bokeh, etc, to separate themselves from low end indie makers. the problem is that they can not control the viewers' environments, like the black levels on viewers' monitors, the ambient light in the viewing environment, etc.

nowadays, I like news, sports, and commercial shots more, as they just look normal, the colors are rich, the contrast is fine, and the exposure just looks all right.  

 

I don't think camera has anything to do with it. DPs pick the look for the show with the director before the camera is chosen. They then pick the camera that makes sense for their workflow, and build an image pipeline with the exposure values, lenses, lighting choices, luts from the colorist or DIT and so forth. 

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

How about seeing it as a way to learn French (if you're an English-speaker)?

Err, nah.

First of all, 2-3 visits per annum won't make any difference and second, it ruins the enjoyment of the film.

I could though watch French TV shows daily and that would have a far greater benefit, but ruin a decent movie? Nope!

[zlfan]

19 hours ago, Benjamin Hilton said:

I don't think camera has anything to do with it. DPs pick the look for the show with the director before the camera is chosen. They then pick the camera that makes sense for their workflow, and build an image pipeline with the exposure values, lenses, lighting choices, luts from the colorist or DIT and so forth. 

it seems to me that the camera is not a differentiator like it was 20 years before, no matter what kind of style. intensive camera movements also can be mimicked by indie makers using s1h with good ibis, or gh7, or gimbals, or digital reframing and power window if shot in 8k or 12k. 

I think right now that hiring many actors and applying large scale green screen are the key differentiators, although these will make dps less essential to the whole product process.