Sony has gone internal-4K crazy: A7RII, RX1004, RX10II

[psolberg]

So basically this may be the D820 sensor or a modified version as they did for the 36.6 version  which means the upcoming high res shooter from nikon will FINALLY join the 4K times if nikon doesn't crippled it on purpose.

On the still sides the A7R didn't offer true uncompressed RAW files like the nikon D8XX does. This meant that although it was technically capable of similar quality, many reviewers picked apart sony's imaging pipeline and showed a noticeable advantage to shooting uncompressed raws with the D8XXX models. If sony did not add true uncompressed raw to the A7RII, I suspect the sensor will only shine on a D820 with Nikon's more quality oriented data pipeline, or in a future alpha body from sony.

On the high resolution game however, I'm still expecting the next leap to 70+. Both this camera and the 5DS only offer modest gains at best. Clearly sony has demonstrated they own the market in sensor technology so if anybody can, it is them.

[Christina Ava]

ok the deal is on if they have fixed the metabones to canon lenses problems.

The previous camera freezes during lens changes with metabones and L lenses...giving multiple heart attacks while shooting at a wedding last month, this is where the canon workhorse came in and saved the day.

yes im not going to ditch my 50.mm 1.2 L, or my 85mm L for sony lenses.

We had this discussion with my partner this week, and i said "if Sony could fix the camera to work perfectly with EF lenses" then its a killer

this and the size, no way you can hold this camera with a huge lens, is it any bigger? it needs a cage for run and gun shooters hope someone makes an accesory that gives it a better grip

[psolberg]

ok the deal is on if they have fixed the metabones to canon lenses problems.

The previous camera freezes during lens changes with metabones and L lenses...giving multiple heart attacks while shooting at a wedding last month, this is where the canon workhorse came in and saved the day.

yes im not going to ditch my 50.mm 1.2 L, or my 85mm L for sony lenses.

We had this discussion with my partner this week, and i said "if Sony could fix the camera to work perfectly with EF lenses" then its a killer

this and the size, no way you can hold this camera with a huge lens, is it any bigger? it needs a cage for run and gun shooters hope someone makes an accesory that gives it a better grip

​while no doubt sony and Zeiss will deliver the basic 50 and 85 fast primes down the road as well as other basics with just as much quality as anybody, the market is open to anybody at this point to figure out they need to make a larger mirorrless camera to balance lenses like a 24-70 and a 70-200. I'm surprised some of the old school companies like canon or nikon haven't figured this out. However both are locked into film and mirror era lens systems constrained by the PD technology that relies on the distances and geometries of traditional DSLRs. This means sony actually has more future proof modern glass than any "L" or "Nikkor" system which are basically legacy gear no matter how new the lens is. Yes, that means that 11-24 you bough is already obsolete for mirrorless.How much is an adapter going to fix the issue remains to be seen. I saw Thom Hogan addressing adapters for the Nikon system (same thing applies to canon). PD= phase detect AF.

This is Thom Hogan on the subject

PD works by taking light, running it through a lens to split it, then measuring the split. When the condenser lens is so close to the sensor as it is in on-sensor PD, the discrimination is lower than you get with the DSLRs, which have a large distance between lens and detector.

Most on-sensor PD systems are running the imaging sensor at very fast rates to get additional contrast detect information to fine tune the focus. Indeed, until a firmware update, the Olympus E-M1 only used PD-on-sensor for older 4/3 lenses.

Most Nikkor F-mount (and CANON) lenses were designed to be driven only by DSLR PD. They'd have trouble with on-sensor PD in retaining accuracy. I believe that the central sensor restriction on the Nikon 1 bodies is related to this: it's totally on axis and benefits in terms of discrimination because of that. I suspect that trying to use non-central PD on the Nikon 1 results in tough geometry problems that make accuracy difficult.

That may be the key for sony down the road: they are the only manufacturer with a modern lens lineup getting built today and that will deliver the best results. If canon and nikon don't wake up and realize their lens lineup is already obsolete, by the time they do, sony will out-glass them by miles.

Keep in mind that camera may still AF with mirror era lenses, but will it be just as fast and accurate with an adapter? Will it work with all 399 PD points across the entire area ? what trade offs will take place. We'll see. If the AF is inaccurate or only works with a subset of points or it is slower, Nikon and Canon will have a mighty tough time convincing people to stay with their legacy glass as sony cranks up optics for the modern age.

[Rockit]

Hello all, 

I'm a happy owner of an A7S and I'm quite pleased with it's video quality when you know how to use the beast (maybe except poor battery life but well there are solutions).

This is a great announcement but the thing that bugs me a lot is the Sont FE Lens lineup !!!

Very restraint choice, lenses around 1000$ that have distortion and CA (corrected by the body but that's not good for a lens of this price).

I'm also doing photography and it's quite unpleasant with the A7S, because, there's hardly any AF lens except the reduced and expensive Sony Lineup !

If you do event, you just NEED a fast zoom like a 24-70 2.8, I don't understand why they don't pull one out, or faster zooms, or cheaper primes.

Sony please hear my prayers

(yeah you have metabones, but with metabones, no decent AF ...)

[eris]

Awesome work Sony.  I can hardly wait to see the A7SII.

Strangely this is awesome news for GH4 owners as:

1) Panasonic is always pushing the limits in this market also.

2) They've been dragging their feet on releasing VLOG.  This announcement is probably just the kind of thing that will spur their product development and engineering people to finally push VLOG into a public firmware release.  If they've been wondering whether they should wait until the GH5, it's time to stop waiting.

As far as I can tell this puts Sony and Panasonic into the lead with Samsung behind them and Canon and Nikon getting their asses kicked.  The A7R/A7SII and the GH5 (and Ursa Mini) will officially be the end of Canon in the race.  Sad to see once great Nikon becoming completely irrelevant.

Things I'd like to see in the GH5 would be:

1. Micro 4/3 mount

2. Dual format S35 and Micro 4/3 sensor

3. Global shutter at 24p

4. Improved low light and some sort of raw video

It will be interesting to see what's next.  The price gap between prosumer mirrorless and pro motion picture cameras is getting very narrow.  Currently I used a GH4 for personal projects and I'm pretty happy.  If I need a serious boost in performance for pro projects I'll just cough up another $2000 or rent an Ursa Mini and a Zeiss or Rokinon Cine lens set.

Laissez les bons temps rouler!

eris

 

 

[Don Kotlos]

​The A7R II price is way out of league for most of people, the 4K APS-C will be priced more reasonable at least that most of us can actually afford it.

I agree. But with the rate SONY cameras devaluate the price will be reasonable in just few months. I would wait until the A7sii release at least.

[Sekhar]

​Does the NX1 offer in camera stabilization , high iso performance and an S-Log image with good Dynamic Range, that seems like more than enough reason for price and lets not talk about the befits in the "photography" department...........

NX1 stabilizes fine with Samsung lenses (I have the 16-50), in-camera is good if you plan to use say Canon glass. Not saying it isn't a plus, but only in some situations. Using non-Samsung lenses is a problem in many other ways for NX1 too, not just for stabilization, so I'd agree A7RII has an advantage if you plan to use a lot of other lenses. But I don't agree about high ISO or DR...yet anyway. We'll need to wait for more footage/tests before concluding that. It's certainly not evident from Sony's demo video in the release. And for log, I think there's a good chance NX1 will be coming up with some kind of log in a firmware update soon.

[Jimmy]

The A7R/A7SII and the GH5 (and Ursa Mini) will officially be the end of Canon in the race.

​We hear this time and again, but... for now.. the 1DC is still the best lightweight 4K camera on the market, in terms of image.. imho.

There is talk of the 1D mk 5 and 5D mk 4 using the same dual sensor readout as the C300 mk 2, giving 15 stops in stills mode, which could equate to a very nice video image with C-log. They might be slow to the party, but still have potential to make the best image.

[DBounce]

​We hear this time and again, but... for now.. the 1DC is still the best lightweight 4K camera on the market, in terms of image.. imho.

There is talk of the 1D mk 5 and 5D mk 4 using the same dual sensor readout as the C300 mk 2, giving 15 stops in stills mode, which could equate to a very nice video image with C-log. They might be slow to the party, but still have potential to make the best image.

I think Canon is done. They could produce a killer camera in this space, but choose not to. As a former Canon owner I would love to see them actually do something game changing. But I like many have come to realise Canon have rested on their laurels for too long. Innovation is something they have forgotten how to do... At least at this level of the market.

[AaronChicago]

I think Canon is done. They could produce a killer camera in this space, but choose not to. As a former Canon owner I would love to see them actually do something game changing. But I like many have come to realise Canon have rested on their laurels for too long. Innovation is something they have forgotten how to do... At least at this level of the market.

​Canon is still the best user experience as far as the Cx00 line goes. That's worth alot in my opinion. Image-wise Sony is really doing a great job and on the cutting edge.

[Wulf]

ok the deal is on if they have fixed the metabones to canon lenses problems.

The previous camera freezes during lens changes with metabones and L lenses...giving multiple heart attacks while shooting at a wedding last month, this is where the canon workhorse came in and saved the day.

yes im not going to ditch my 50.mm 1.2 L, or my 85mm L for sony lenses.

We had this discussion with my partner this week, and i said "if Sony could fix the camera to work perfectly with EF lenses" then its a killer

this and the size, no way you can hold this camera with a huge lens, is it any bigger? it needs a cage for run and gun shooters hope someone makes an accesory that gives it a better grip

​What's wrong with a C100?

 

[Leica50mm]

I  bought  the A7R and the FE 55 1.8 thinking it would be better than my 1DC with canon glass for stills.

I find I  like the images from the canon way, way more.  I sometimes switch between the two on shoots and i never can use the Sony shots. Now i'm Selling it. For me, canon just see's things the way i do. 

Thanks,

Tim 

[The Chris]

I think Canon is done. They could produce a killer camera in this space, but choose not to. As a former Canon owner I would love to see them actually do something game changing. But I like many have come to realise Canon have rested on their laurels for too long. Innovation is something they have forgotten how to do... At least at this level of the market.

​Sony has 11% of the market and most of its imaging profits come from sensor production and the pro video division - not the E-mount. Canon is far from done. The A7rII filled the spec sheet, but at $3200 it isn't going to be a big seller. For landscape and 4k shooters its a nice option, but Sony's crappy flash system and small lens lineup compared to the big two isn't going to get a lot of people to dump Canon or Nikon anytime soon - especially since this sensor will find its way into the next D8xx and I'm guessing Nikon will roll out 4k with the new flagship. I've said all along, I bet the 5d4 will have 4k as well.

Glad to see Sony finally putting all its best tech into one camera, but 4k and BSI means its twice the price of the A7II and NX1? And still no 14-bit raws? Only 5fps? Meh. Most FE lenses are grossly overpriced as well. $1600 for the 35/1.4 when my Nikon Sigma cost half that and is actually smaller? My D750 body weighs 5 ounces more than the A7II, the whole small/light argument for mirrorless is gone. Hopefully the next versions of the A7s and the lower MP A7 get all the new toys and don't cost over three grand.

[Jonesy Jones]

I haven't read every post but is anyone talking about bits? I think this thing is 8 bit. Doable for a bunch of stuff, but I have all but vowed to not shoot 8 bit any longer. Maybe it does 10 bits with external recorder..... probably not.

[Jimmy]

Good point about 10bit out. I think it is unlikely, but would put it up a level, if it does have.

I don't think any company is "dead" (for video) until we see some DSLRs with internal 10 bit/log, to be honest. Until then, they are all crippled in one way or another.

[Thomas Ooi]

"FF 1080p 120fps" that all i want T_T 

[j.f.r.]

​I was a colourist for 4 years. If you think the Sony colour is as good as any other camera, great... But it is your opinion, not a fact. I know some of the best colourists in London and they all generally dislike Sony... Yes, you might be able to match, more or less, footage from an F55 with an Alexa... But you will spend more time doing it. Their colour science is not their strong point.

​Sorry to hear that in 4 years you didn't learn the basics of color correcting........ You are only further proving you have no idea what you are doing

 

I work with all cameras from all files over the world, I can match GoPro footage shot in ProTune to an Alexa or Canon or Sony...... 

[Jimmy]

I guess you forgot to learn to read while you were so busy being a colour genius.

I said you can (generally) match the colours, but it is more hassle. Time is money. Matching 8 bit to 14 bit raw is also not 100% possible (Go Pro to Alexa skintones! hahahahaha). Maybe you know more than the rest of the industry though, perhaps you have the same plugins they have on CSI miami?... good for you.

 

If Sony colours are for you, I fully recommend this camera. If you go back to my original post I said "My only concern" ... I don;t hugely like the Sony colours.... Sensors are not equal.... It is personal preference.

[Julian]

Good point about 10bit out. I think it is unlikely, but would put it up a level, if it does have.

I don't think any company is "dead" (for video) until we see some DSLRs with internal 10 bit/log, to be honest. Until then, they are all crippled in one way or another.

422 8 bit hdmi output. It's in the specs. 

[psolberg]

​Sony has 11% of the market and most of its imaging profits come from sensor production and the pro video division - not the E-mount. Canon is far from done. The A7rII filled the spec sheet, but at $3200 it isn't going to be a big seller. For landscape and 4k shooters its a nice option, but Sony's crappy flash system and small lens lineup compared to the big two isn't going to get a lot of people to dump Canon or Nikon anytime soon - especially since this sensor will find its way into the next D8xx and I'm guessing Nikon will roll out 4k with the new flagship. I've said all along, I bet the 5d4 will have 4k as well.

Glad to see Sony finally putting all its best tech into one camera, but 4k and BSI means its twice the price of the A7II and NX1? And still no 14-bit raws? Only 5fps? Meh. Most FE lenses are grossly overpriced as well. $1600 for the 35/1.4 when my Nikon Sigma cost half that and is actually smaller? My D750 body weighs 5 ounces more than the A7II, the whole small/light argument for mirrorless is gone. Hopefully the next versions of the A7s and the lower MP A7 get all the new toys and don't cost over three grand.

​don't dump the lens system. adapt it and join the party while sony builds the best full frame system designed from the ground up to be versatile in mirrorless bodies without nikon/canon clunky adapters. I doubt sony is going for the niche telephoto market anyway. Seems they are going for the hybrid video/photo shooter and the photographer that just has a standard set of lenses for wedding, landscape, pj, portrait, studio where a 600 f/4 is worthless anyway.

However I do think it is only a matter of time before sony ships an ergonomically friendly mirrorless camera that smokes the 5DMK 3/4, 1DXMK 1/2 and D4/5, D810/820 AF and FPS wise and it is cheaper just because they don't have to deal with mechanics of a mirror flying at near sonic speeds reliably. If they just build lenses for the wedding and landscape crowd, then that is a LOT of gear they can move even if the NFL photog doesn't care because his niche lens set isn't there. In particular they can sell on features the competition will struggle: LV, video, portability, silent operation, performance (fps). Yes nikon and canon can counter with "hey, we got more lenses you weren't going to buy anyway, and an overpriced flash system even less of you learn to master". But sony bets the crowd that will have their needs fulfilled is greater than the one that won't. Anyway, that is their calculus.