Sony has gone internal-4K crazy: A7RII, RX1004, RX10II

[DBounce]

​Sony has 11% of the market and most of its imaging profits come from sensor production and the pro video division - not the E-mount. Canon is far from done. The A7rII filled the spec sheet, but at $3200 it isn't going to be a big seller. For landscape and 4k shooters its a nice option, but Sony's crappy flash system and small lens lineup compared to the big two isn't going to get a lot of people to dump Canon or Nikon anytime soon - especially since this sensor will find its way into the next D8xx and I'm guessing Nikon will roll out 4k with the new flagship. I've said all along, I bet the 5d4 will have 4k as well.

Glad to see Sony finally putting all its best tech into one camera, but 4k and BSI means its twice the price of the A7II and NX1? And still no 14-bit raws? Only 5fps? Meh. Most FE lenses are grossly overpriced as well. $1600 for the 35/1.4 when my Nikon Sigma cost half that and is actually smaller? My D750 body weighs 5 ounces more than the A7II, the whole small/light argument for mirrorless is gone. Hopefully the next versions of the A7s and the lower MP A7 get all the new toys and don't cost over three grand.

​Does it not state 14bit in the specs?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1159878-REG/sony_a7r_mark_ii_digital.html

 

and here

http://www.sony.net/Products/di/en-us/products/dkw5/specifications.html?contentsTop=1

[tosvus]

As mentioned by others in this thread, I mainly hope this will light a fire under Panasonic to stay on the cutting edge of dslr video. For GH5 I would like to see global shutter setting (like the new micro cinema camera from black magic), higher framerates 10-bit vlog internal 4k, the crop mode from jvc, and preferably an option to store raw (maybe 1080p only) internally. I would prefer a bump in resolution for stills too, though not sure how that would work with video moire/aliasing. ..and IBIS would be nice. I'm sure it has to be possible to do that..

 

As for Canon, I'm sure they will stay successful in high end video, photo, and some low level video, but prosumers will move away.

[Brellivids]

I would not be swapping out my GH4 for this new Sony. Sony's pyramid of focus (chart) suggests that the inevitable A7SII will be higly improved powerhouse as well.

Then again if you could get them both (A7RII & A7SII) .. that would work

I hope Nikon pulls their head from their arse and star making 4K capable models. Not this 15fps BS they do so far.

[Julian]

​Does it not state 14bit in the specs?

 

Sony uses some kind of lossy compression that can cause artefacts. Some articles:

http://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/sony-craw-arw2-posterization-detection
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2014/20140214_1-SonyA7-artifacts-star-trails.html

Haven't seen much - if any at all - real world use where this is a problem though. Maybe if you shoot a lot of star trails...

 

 

[The Chris]

​Does it not state 14bit in the specs?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1159878-REG/sony_a7r_mark_ii_digital.html

 

and here

http://www.sony.net/Products/di/en-us/products/dkw5/specifications.html?contentsTop=1

The spec sheet says ARW 2.3, which its still the same lossy compression Sony has used on all the other A7's. Here's a better explanation than I can type.

https://photographylife.com/reviews/sony-a7-ii/3

Imaging Resource was at the press event in NYC and asked about it and it was confirmed that the A7rII still uses the 11+7 compression. Boo.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/06/10/sony-rx10-ii-rx100-iv-and-a7r-ii-announced-were-blogging-live-from-the-pres

[Giovanni Bertani]

Sold two months ago my 5D MKIII this is my next camera. Canon bye bye

[ntblowz]

The ND in RX10 is only 3 stop, not strong enough for daylight F2.8, wish it was more stronger lol

[Patrick Baum]

So basically this may be the D820 sensor or a modified version as they did for the 36.6 version  which means the upcoming high res shooter from nikon will FINALLY join the 4K times if nikon doesn't crippled it on purpose.

On the still sides the A7R didn't offer true uncompressed RAW files like the nikon D8XX does. This meant that although it was technically capable of similar quality, many reviewers picked apart sony's imaging pipeline and showed a noticeable advantage to shooting uncompressed raws with the D8XXX models. If sony did not add true uncompressed raw to the A7RII, I suspect the sensor will only shine on a D820 with Nikon's more quality oriented data pipeline, or in a future alpha body from sony.

On the high resolution game however, I'm still expecting the next leap to 70+. Both this camera and the 5DS only offer modest gains at best. Clearly sony has demonstrated they own the market in sensor technology so if anybody can, it is them.

Having recently invested in a few full frame Nikon's for the Photography side of my business, ​I'd be ridiculously excited about this prospect. Although they are still big honking DSLRs, they still produces the best still images of any platform I've used. The D750 showed Nikon can get somewhat serious about video, I'd love to see a sony sensored 4K platform in their next product cycle. 

High resolution in the 70+ range is coming to the masses, it's just a matter of when the market is ready and or wants it.  Despite the gearhead communities love of high resolution options (and I'll admit I'm one, and love my 24Mp+ systems), I've never had a client need or ask for an image bigger than around 16MP.  Yet.

Dat crop tho.




 

[Patrick Baum]

Awesome work Sony.  I can hardly wait to see the A7SII.

Strangely this is awesome news for GH4 owners as:

1) Panasonic is always pushing the limits in this market also.

2) They've been dragging their feet on releasing VLOG.  This announcement is probably just the kind of thing that will spur their product development and engineering people to finally push VLOG into a public firmware release.  If they've been wondering whether they should wait until the GH5, it's time to stop waiting.

As far as I can tell this puts Sony and Panasonic into the lead with Samsung behind them and Canon and Nikon getting their asses kicked.  The A7R/A7SII and the GH5 (and Ursa Mini) will officially be the end of Canon in the race.  Sad to see once great Nikon becoming completely irrelevant.

Things I'd like to see in the GH5 would be:

1. Micro 4/3 mount

2. Dual format S35 and Micro 4/3 sensor

3. Global shutter at 24p

4. Improved low light and some sort of raw video

It will be interesting to see what's next.  The price gap between prosumer mirrorless and pro motion picture cameras is getting very narrow.  Currently I used a GH4 for personal projects and I'm pretty happy.  If I need a serious boost in performance for pro projects I'll just cough up another $2000 or rent an Ursa Mini and a Zeiss or Rokinon Cine lens set.

Laissez les bons temps rouler!

eris

 

 

​Alright, I'm going to be a little biased having within the last week switched over from Canon to some Nikon gear, but I don't think Nikon is out of the hybrid stills/video game yet.  They're keeping a grasp with the D750 (which I think most agree is a very nice image, even if only 1080p). And if they keep to Sony sensors, and put a modified A7RII sensor into a D8xx body,  Nikon could easily hang with the pack come next cycle.

I'll agree, Canon is falling behind, at least in the small video/photo hybrid systems category. They need to really blow some minds with the 5D MkIV, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of expectation that they will. It's probably going to be tried and true, will not impress on the stats, but will still be a hell of a workhorse for those who rely on canon for pro Photography.    

I loved my Panasonic GH4 and FZ1000, and from a usability standpoint they do a lot right. A LOT. But with that weak DR (please, please release VLOG), and weak lowlight performance, they've got their work cut out for them on the GH5. I can't get my hopes too high about a m4/3 sensor, but if anyone can pull some magic it's Panasonic. 

Sony has an impressive beast mode camera with this announcement. It'll be great to see some reviews and hands on performance, especially pertaining to lowlight. That picetag though is, well, steep. You can pick up a used a7S and an external recorder for around $2700USD right now if, like me, good lowlight and DR is the interest. And I don't think it's got me replacing my Samsung NX1 just yet, but the thought definitely crossed my mind. 


 

[sheedoe]

So I am assuming I can use the Sigma 18-35mm for canon with an adapter and be able to record in the Super 35 mode just fine.

I am thinking whether to buy the A7R II or the URSA Mini 4.6K. I know these camera's are in different leagues, but here's the pros and cons for each:

URSA mini 4.6K:

Pros: Better Image quality, RAW, 15 stop DR (Will have to wait and see)

Cons: Double the cost the A7R II with the needed accessories. Expensive Cfast card, Not so great low light performance, bigger and heavier.

A7R II:

Pros: Better low light capability, smaller and easier to carry, built-in stabilization, great photo camera, usable auto focus, affordable.

Cons: No touch screen, low battery life, compressed RAW photos.

Still thinking which one I should get. I can better shots with the small form factor of the Sony, but miss the cinematic image quality of the URSA mini. What do you guys think?

[fuzzynormal]

"I began to wonder if the ‘space race’ of camera technology may have lost sight of what actually makes a flattering picture."

Yup.  And it ultimately ain't really the camera, is it?  What should happen when a filmmaker gets their hands on a camera where the spec sheet is more or less ideal?  At some point it's got to be about what we do with the things.

...if anyone wants to buy me a A7R II though, let me know ;-)

[neosushi]

So I am assuming I can use the Sigma 18-35mm for canon with an adapter and be able to record in the Super 35 mode just fine.

I am thinking whether to buy the A7R II or the URSA Mini 4.6K. I know these camera's are in different leagues, but here's the pros and cons for each:

URSA mini 4.6K:

Pros: Better Image quality, RAW, 15 stop DR (Will have to wait and see)

Cons: Double the cost the A7R II with the needed accessories. Expensive Cfast card, Not so great low light performance, bigger and heavier.

A7R II:

Pros: Better low light capability, smaller and easier to carry, built-in stabilization, great photo camera, usable auto focus, affordable.

Cons: No touch screen, low battery life, compressed RAW photos.

Still thinking which one I should get. I can better shots with the small form factor of the Sony, but miss the cinematic image quality of the URSA mini. What do you guys think?

​Well, the A7s II Of course.  

[Daniel Lee]

God damn, I'm almost done saving the A7s.

 

Allegedly noise is significantly improved over the A7r? The A7r already has great noise performance, just not godly like the A7s, wouldn't significant improvement throw this into A7s levels?

 

High res images, improved noise, and 4K, all in one? Is this best of both A7s and A7r in one, but with internal 4K not external? And improved AF via adapter?God damn. I need the A7s for my Japan trip Aug 31, not sure if I can get hands on A7r II by then?

[ntblowz]

Consider the max ISO on A7R II is only 102,400 dont think low light is as impressive as A7s, and with the downsampling they use on S35 mode and binning on full frame mode it wont be as moire/aliasing free compare to A7s with 1:1 pixel readout, and on lowlight it will be even more obvious as A7R II have to use S35 for best video quality which loss 1 stop/DR compare to Full Frame mode of A7S.

 

But if you are more of hybrid still/video shooter A7R II obviously is the better solution with improved AF especially on Canon glass, 5 Axis IS and 42MP to boot.

[pietz]

i disagree with those saying that "especially now Panasonic needs to deliver V-Log for the GH4". We're lucky that the update is rumored to drop very soon, because if anything Panasonic needs us to buy their next camera. And thats not going to happen if the GH4 takes away another aspect that the GH5 could show off.

They will only make us buy their next product if they amaze us. V-Log is definitely the first thing on my list, closely followed by 10bit. the latter got even more important now that the A7r II doesnt have it. Personally i never cared for 4:2:2 and dont see why this is such a big deal to some, but 10bit prores or cineform would be a great start. Since the announcement of the A7r II IBIS is also a must now. this will mess up Panasonics entire lens line up with OIS but thats a shot they have to take. Lastly a 4k multi aspect sensor to come as close as possible to a larger sensor format. since this results in a 12MP senor this will also help in low light.The problem with sensors is that there are not so many great ones out there and you have to take what you get.

But if we're honest: Panasonic is done, they wont have a market after this camera drops and after the A7s II even less. those Samyang lenses are still a lot cheaper than MFT glass surprisingly enough so for filmmakers the cost of lenses isnt even a downside with the A7 series. oh man Pana, you gotta strike hard and start delivering RELEVANT firmware updates frequently. id love to work for them in hard times like these.

[tosvus]

i disagree with those saying that "especially now Panasonic needs to deliver V-Log for the GH4". We're lucky that the update is rumored to drop very soon, because if anything Panasonic needs us to buy their next camera. And thats not going to happen if the GH4 takes away another aspect that the GH5 could show off.

They will only make us buy their next product if they amaze us. V-Log is definitely the first thing on my list, closely followed by 10bit. the latter got even more important now that the A7r II doesnt have it. Personally i never cared for 4:2:2 and dont see why this is such a big deal to some, but 10bit prores or cineform would be a great start. Since the announcement of the A7r II IBIS is also a must now. this will mess up Panasonics entire lens line up with OIS but thats a shot they have to take. Lastly a 4k multi aspect sensor to come as close as possible to a larger sensor format. since this results in a 12MP senor this will also help in low light.The problem with sensors is that there are not so many great ones out there and you have to take what you get.

But if we're honest: Panasonic is done, they wont have a market after this camera drops and after the A7s II even less. those Samyang lenses are still a lot cheaper than MFT glass surprisingly enough so for filmmakers the cost of lenses isnt even a downside with the A7 series. oh man Pana, you gotta strike hard and start delivering RELEVANT firmware updates frequently. id love to work for them in hard times like these.

​totally different league on pricing, but I do hope they take notice and stay in front. I find the Panasonics, while cheaper to be far more reliable and user friendly for video than the sonys btw.

[Husah]

So basically this may be the D820 sensor or a modified version as they did for the 36.6 version  which means the upcoming high res shooter from nikon will FINALLY join the 4K times if nikon doesn't crippled it on purpose.

​

There is no such guarantee. Nikon still doesn't have 12 MP sensor from A7s, and it took 3 years to get RX100 sensor in J5. 

[pietz]

​totally different league on pricing, but I do hope they take notice and stay in front. I find the Panasonics, while cheaper to be far more reliable and user friendly for video than the sonys btw.

​ive been saying this for years and always get weird looks all over the place, but the relationship of Sony and Panasonic is strikingly similar to RED and ARRI. One tries to innovate wherever they can, which always looks great on paper. the other focuses on complete reliability and only uses what works 100%. 

If moire isnt a huge deal on the a7r II there is another benefit opposed to the A7s. native iso at 3200 is annoying as f*ck and while its awesome to have nightvision in our camera, we wont need it more then 2% of the time. Shooting in bright daylight and having to use iso 3200 happens a whole lot more often. using variable NDs with these settings is almost impossible because all of them suck at high ND values. and fixed NDs are just as annoying. native iso at probably 800 is a lot better to deal with if you want use S-Log

[dahlfors]

There is no such guarantee. Nikon still doesn't have 12 MP sensor from A7s, and it took 3 years to get RX100 sensor in J5. 

​Correct. Nikon have had sensors capable of 4k for a quite a while. What they don't have: the image processing needed for 4k. They're working on getting there, and it is likely that they will aim for 4k in the next generation. But there are no guarantees.

 

[dahlfors]

Guess Sony going 4k with these cameras means that the rumored upcoming A6xx / A7xx model will also feature internal 4k. Keeping my hopes up for some high frame rate modes for that one as well...