Canon New Product Launch - 17th July 2024

[Emanuel]

23 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

I wrote "in this market range". Cinema line is another story for both Canon and Sony. 

R5 want to be the hero of the two worlds 

Very true, well stated : ) Reason why that mention to the FX30 BTW. I've just bought one because seems they have succeeded where others fail.

However, as you said with Panny example and @kye has written, no excuses unless for overcharges with one more accessory to sell like hotdogs, they bet : D

[BTM_Pix]

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

and also the worse lens mount which cannot accept adapters to Sony E-mount - and I am not sure there is a autofocusing Leica M adapter either? Or Super 16mm c-mount? So that for me, is what killed the EOS R3 vs Nikon Z9 and it is same with the new models.

One slightly obvious, but often overlooked, standout for the Z mount is that it is the ONLY mount that has an AF Mount adapter for Nikon F mount lenses.

Being able to use F, EF, E mount lenses with as native AF performance and the TechArt adapter to give AF for manual focus Leica M and by extension Leica R, Canon FD, M42 etc lenses is a huge edge for it over R mount for me.

 

[ntblowz]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Not exactly. As far as people report, no overheating issues straight from F3/FX30 cine line... Neither R5C.

So, to me it's even much more critical the Z8 case study, isn't it? ; ) Even though I guess they are not in the mood for hybrid devices despite the success of FX30 (S35 + APS-C two in a single one) over F3 for that purpose.

:- )

FX3 can overheat, this guy I know (I shot with him a few time) said his FX3 did overheat on him.

If you search online there are FX3 overheating discussions

https://forum.sony-rumors.com/full-frame-mirrorless-cameras/overheating-issues-and-cooling-solutions-for-the-sony-fx3/

 

FX30 on the other hand I haven't seen anyone claim their one overheated, me and my friend's FX30 has been pretty rock steady sofar.

 

So in terms of overheating I think only Panasonic really did some extra miles for their solution.

[ntblowz]

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

It is pure economics, not many new shooters buy a Z8 or R5, mostly have already lenses and camera of one system, as you cannot produce enough to meet initial demand you start with a higher price to cash in on early adopters. Is not that difficult to understand. 

Two examples: 
Canon R3 launch price 5979 CHF!!! After 1 year: 4990 CHF, now 3990 CHF.
Nikon Z8 launch price 4598 CHF, After 1 year 3099 CHF !!!!

 

 

Hence Fuji is really clever with their production and inventory... it keeps their system quite valuable and also makes their customer's camera keep their value longer, it's a win-win situation!

[ac6000cw]

55 minutes ago, zlfan said:

s series and gh7 are really leading the Japanese companies. 

Only in a very niche segment with the GH7 (that other major companies aren't interested in). The S5 ii is aimed at the 'high perceived value' segment by majoring on firmware features while keeping the hardware costs lower by using an older/slower sensor and sharing a body across multiple cameras. It would be interesting to know how profitable (or not) the Panasonic camera division actually is.

[ac6000cw]

20 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

Hence Fuji is really clever with their production and inventory... it keeps their system quite valuable and also makes their customer's camera keep their value longer, it's a win-win situation!

I think Fuji's camera division is one of the best managed of the major players.

[herein2020]

9 hours ago, kye said:

BMMCC has a fan and it was $995 only a few years ago when it went EOL.  Plus it is like 30% of the size.

The BM Micro Studio Camera 4K G2 is a current model, which is also $995, and tiny by comparison.  It has been used for 24 hour races in ridiculous conditions and performed flawlessly.

No excuses for overheating, except for significant/extreme weather and dust sealing requirements.

Neither one are weather sealed, neither are hybrid cameras, and neither use a FF sensor. I do think the S1H is the best example of active cooling + weather sealing done right. But even with the S1H it can't shoot 8K and has a lower resolution sensor.

Canon has already shown us the monstrosity it would create if it were to add in body active cooling which is the R5C, so for reasons unknown to us they can't seem to replicate the S1H's design or choose not to. The S1H is also mainly focused on video shooters whereas Canon is trying to do literally everything possible in a single body so they probably wanted to keep the size and cost down to appeal to stills photographers as well. Plenty of stills photographers are adamant that they do not want to pay for "video" features.

3 hours ago, Davide DB said:

I wrote "in this market range". Cinema line is another story for both Canon and Sony. 

R5 want to be the hero of the two worlds 

I think that is the part a lot of people on this forum are missing since this is a video focused forum. If you are shooting a hybrid event you will probably need two different bodies if you go with most of the cameras that the R5 II is being compared to on this thread; you will most likely need to bring two bodies to the event, a photography body and a video body. For me I would need to bring 3 bodies (C70 for the longform portion of the main event), a photography body, and a video body. 

With the R5 II in the same scenario, I could shoot commercially viable video b roll before the event starts, commercially viable photos, then throw the same body on a tripod to act as a b camera for the C70, or use the same body for live event photos while the C70 is filming the longform content. 

Before the R5 I used to have the C200, Panasonic S5, and 5DIV for events.  In my opinion, the only competitor's camera that can offer the same versatility would be the Nikon Z8. All other cameras that I am aware of are either lower resolution, video only, mostly stills focused, even more expensive than the R5 II (i.e. Sony A9), or have some other limitation.

That's why to me, the overheating question is the biggest one that needs to be answered. If you need the active cooling grip just to shoot 4K30FPS for 2+ hours that's a big step backwards because the cooling grip does not have the vertical shutter button and photography controls on it.

BTW the R1 feels like a big letdown, they should have just called it the R3 II, and kept people guessing for a few more years while they developed an actual flagship.

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, ntblowz said:

FX3 can overheat, this guy I know (I shot with him a few time) said his FX3 did overheat on him.

If you search online there are FX3 overheating discussions

https://forum.sony-rumors.com/full-frame-mirrorless-cameras/overheating-issues-and-cooling-solutions-for-the-sony-fx3/

 

FX30 on the other hand I haven't seen anyone claim their one overheated, me and my friend's FX30 has been pretty rock steady sofar.

 

So in terms of overheating I think only Panasonic really did some extra miles for their solution.

I need to add that my R7 in line skipped 4k30FPS has never overheated even in warm temps while shooting 2hrs continuously. It will overheat in 4K30FPS oversampled mode.

Also, Panasonic uses lower resolution 24MP sensors and even with those sensors they did a fantastic job with cooling but it is unknown if they could replicate that success with 45MP sensors.

[Andrew Reid]

There is no line skipping any more, it is done by pixel binning and more intelligently merging groups of pixels. Sensors have come a long way since the 5D Mark II. Unfortunately for Canon, the competition's sensors have come along further than they have.

If the trend continues then Canon will have to pay a heavy price for Sony's best process... And are not fully in control, but at the mercy of a rival.

I am very curious to see if existing R5 and R3 owners in the current financial climate decide that it is worth it to upgrade.

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

On RAW codec... Canon RAW is natively supported in Premiere Pro and Davinci Resolve, Nikon only in Resolve and in regards of bit rate: 8k 60p Canon 2600 Mbits, Nikon 3470 Mbits....

The Z8 and Z9 shoot ProRes RAW as well though, not just N-RAW.

They are in pole position for future cameras as well due to the infamous patent and RED ownership.

What if they say to Canon - no more RAW for you?

Unlikely, but Canon could end up paying significant royalties if there is a time-limit on the current patent swap with RED.

By the way - depending on what was swapped, Nikon could now have the rights to use RF mount!!

That would be funny.

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Not sure what is worst in Canon RAW vs Nikon I would say is the inverse.

Far fewer resolutions, frame rates and crop factors.

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

I agree on the R1 is really a meh release....

That is truly a camera for the faithful.

[MrSMW]

35 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

Neither one are weather sealed, neither are hybrid cameras, and neither use a FF sensor. I do think the S1H is the best example of active cooling + weather sealing done right. But even with the S1H it can't shoot 8K and has a lower resolution sensor.

The S1H is the best camera ever made. Full stop. Stills or video.

OK, maybe for some people, it isn't, but in my experience and for my needs, it has just been the best camera I have ever had and it's going back to being my stills camera.

In the hand, it's near perfect. Only the Canon R3 beats it for me for handling/ergos, being taller but lighter, but compared with anything else, hands down the best for me.

Shutter button and sound? Sublime. 

AF speed and accuracy for stills? Very high.

AF for video? Not as bad as some think.

Rendering for video or stills? Extremely high and better than my S5II's for sure.

Battery life? Superb.

IBIS? Excellent.

6k 30p open gate at 200mbps.

Overheating? Ha, the S1H laughs at the very concept.

Value? Stupidly high on the used market.

It doesn't have the LUT features of say the latest Lumix and other cameras such as the new Canon's and I doubt that will come in firmware, but that's not an issue for me.

I can't believe I was going to retire it...

[herein2020]

2 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

The S1H is the best camera ever made. Full stop. Stills or video.

OK, maybe for some people, it isn't, but in my experience and for my needs, it has just been the best camera I have ever had and it's going back to being my stills camera.

In the hand, it's near perfect. Only the Canon R3 beats it for me for handling/ergos, being taller but lighter, but compared with anything else, hands down the best for me.

Shutter button and sound? Sublime. 

AF speed and accuracy for stills? Very high.

AF for video? Not as bad as some think.

Rendering for video or stills? Extremely high and better than my S5II's for sure.

Battery life? Superb.

IBIS? Excellent.

6k 30p open gate at 200mbps.

Overheating? Ha, the S1H laughs at the very concept.

Value? Stupidly high on the used market.

It doesn't have the LUT features of say the latest Lumix and other cameras such as the new Canon's and I doubt that will come in firmware, but that's not an issue for me.

I can't believe I was going to retire it...

Without hesitation I will always agree that it is a fantastic camera, I have worked with footage shot by it and seen amazing works online where I wondered what camera they used and with a little research in the BTS it always seems to be the S1H. 

TBH I still wish it could have worked for my needs; it sure would have saved me a lot of money. It is just such a shame that it is a part of such a niche ecosystem. Even the R5II doesn't have some of the features that the S1H offered at launch.

[Andrew Reid]

6K 60p Standard RAW – 2600mbps

6K 60p Light RAW – 1800mbps

These are the bitrates for 6K RAW on the Canon R1

Do people still mind about manageable file sizes?

For me I never tend to go above 700Mbit.

Of course for 8K RAW on the R5 II the files are going to be even more gargantuan (2600mbps+)

One thing both Canon and Nikon continue to omit is any sort of anamorphic mode as well.

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, ntblowz said:

FX3 can overheat, this guy I know (I shot with him a few time) said his FX3 did overheat on him.

If you search online there are FX3 overheating discussions

https://forum.sony-rumors.com/full-frame-mirrorless-cameras/overheating-issues-and-cooling-solutions-for-the-sony-fx3/

 

FX30 on the other hand I haven't seen anyone claim their one overheated, me and my friend's FX30 has been pretty rock steady sofar.

 

So in terms of overheating I think only Panasonic really did some extra miles for their solution.

Well, I hadn't done the homework for the FX3 just for the simple reason I have focused myself on the FX30, even though I presumed with active cooling shared on both I thought they would have been fairly similar beyond the obvious differences as far as sensor size format factor concerns. Much appreciated and useful your heads-up as usual :- )

 

[herein2020]

41 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

6K 60p Standard RAW – 2600mbps

6K 60p Light RAW – 1800mbps

These are the bitrates for 6K RAW on the Canon R1

Do people still mind about manageable file sizes?

For me I never tend to go above 700Mbit.

Of course, for 8K RAW on the R5 II the files are going to be even more gargantuan (2600mbps+)

One thing both Canon and Nikon continue to omit is any sort of anamorphic mode as well.

One thing I really like about the R5 II is that they finally brought XF-HEVC and other compressed options to their 8K resolution. I never understood why RAW was the only 8K option before.

If I am reading the specs properly from the list below, I think it will be able to shoot 8K 30FPS in 10bit LGOP at a bitrate of 400Mbps. I don't see any scenario where I would shoot 8K RAW except for a few seconds to test out my video editing workstation but 10bit LGOP at 400Mbps might be pretty useful for many things.

One thing I also haven't seen listed is how many of the modes will let you record to both card slots due to data speeds, I'm thinking nothing above 4K60FPS can be recorded to the SD card slot. So, for many modes, you will lose dual card redundancy.....IMO that is one place where the cripple hammer is still alive and well. I actually had an issue once with my R5 where the data was not readable on the CFE card but was fine on the SD card so not a good situation IMO.

I also don't understand why 4K and 8K are the only options, there is no 6K option, shouldn't that be possible with an 8K sensor?

8K RAW Standard (29.97p/25.00p/24.00p/23.98p): Approx. 2600 Mbps
8K RAW Light (59.94p/50.00p): Approx. 2600 Mbps
8K RAW Light (29.97p): Approx. 1670 Mbps
8K RAW Light (25p): Approx. 1400 Mbps
8K RAW Light (24.00p/23.98p): Approx. 1340 Mbps
4K SRAW Standard (59.94p): Approx. 1860 Mbps
4K SRAW Standard (50p): Approx. 1550 Mbps
4K SRAW Standard (29.97p): Approx. 930 Mbps
4K SRAW Standard (25.00p/24.00p/23.98p): Approx. 780 Mbps
4K SRAW Light (59.94p): Approx. 840 Mbps
4K SRAW Light (50p): Approx. 700 Mbps
4K SRAW Light (29.97p): Approx. 420 Mbps
4K SRAW Light (25.00p/24.00p/23.98p): Approx. 350 Mbps
MP4 8K DCI/UHD Normal: XF-HEVC S YCC422 10bit High Quality Intra 24p / 23.98p: Approx. 1920 Mbps
Standard Intra 25p: Approx. 1500 Mbps
Light Intra 25p: Approx. 1000 Mbps
Standard LGOP 25p: Approx. 540 Mbps
XF-HEVC S YCC420 10bit Standard LGOP 29.97p/25.00p/24.00p/23.98p: Approx. 400 Mbps

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am very curious to see if existing R5 and R3 owners in the current financial climate decide that it is worth it to upgrade.

Unfortunately, I am all in on Canon at this point and if the R5 II....IF and that's a big IF, if it can run for 2hrs in normal ambient temps that we have where I live while shooting 4K30FPS without the cooling battery grip then I might upgrade to two of these bodies to replace my R5 and R7. I have always wanted to standardize on using a single body type for hybrid photo/videos as well as dedicated video and Canon's cripple hammer always held me back.

 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

It is just such a shame that it is a part of such a niche ecosystem

What is the niche part?

Genuinely curious!

The only thing missing for me personally is a fast compact long zoom like Tamron’s 70-180 f2.8

Otherwise lens-wise, there is just about anything you could wish for, native, adapted, cine…

OK body-wise, we’re waiting on a replacement for the S1H and S1R, but they are still highly capable and the S1R produces IMO the nicest files SOOC with their 5k Flat profile.

The Leica SL3 hints at what should be coming, though even if I had the cash, I would not spring for one as it’s not a good value proposition to me.

And maybe (hopefully) Sigma will also pop something out a la FP series again…

The bottom line is there are pros and cons to all systems but it seems that L Mount just has the least cons for me.

Canon actually remains the only major brand I have never owned. Ticked the boxes for; Lumix, Nikon, Fuji, Sony and Olympus, but Canon has always evaded me. Or I have evaded it…

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

6K 60p Standard RAW – 2600mbps

OK it’s raw, but that is 13x the 6k 30p I use 🤯

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

I also don't understand why 4K and 8K are the only options, there is no 6K option, shouldn't that be possible with an 8K sensor?

Absolutely. The Fuji X-H2 does this for $1500

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

8K RAW Standard (29.97p/25.00p/24.00p/23.98p): Approx. 2600 Mbps
8K RAW Light (59.94p/50.00p): Approx. 2600 Mbps
8K RAW Light (29.97p): Approx. 1670 Mbps
8K RAW Light (25p): Approx. 1400 Mbps
8K RAW Light (24.00p/23.98p): Approx. 1340 Mbps
4K SRAW Standard (59.94p): Approx. 1860 Mbps
4K SRAW Standard (50p): Approx. 1550 Mbps
4K SRAW Standard (29.97p): Approx. 930 Mbps
4K SRAW Standard (25.00p/24.00p/23.98p): Approx. 780 Mbps
4K SRAW Light (59.94p): Approx. 840 Mbps
4K SRAW Light (50p): Approx. 700 Mbps
4K SRAW Light (29.97p): Approx. 420 Mbps
4K SRAW Light (25.00p/24.00p/23.98p): Approx. 350 Mbps

350 Mbps is more like it. Remains to be seen whether it is any better than H.265 at that bitrate though and it being not really RAW (as in unprocessed like Cinema DNG). Probably looks very similar to H.265 for all but the most extreme grades.

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

Unfortunately, I am all in on Canon at this point and if the R5 II....IF and that's a big IF, if it can run for 2hrs in normal ambient temps that we have where I live while shooting 4K30FPS without the cooling battery grip then I might upgrade to two of these bodies to replace my R5 and R7. I have always wanted to standardize on using a single body type for hybrid photo/videos as well as dedicated video and Canon's cripple hammer always held me back.

We at least get a fan this time, so in a way all the controversy was worth it.

No matter what though, It just isn't worth £4500 to me in today's market.

Between the Sony a1, Fuji GFX 100 and Panasonic S1H I have the bases covered.

There is no way the EOS R5 II beats a GFX 100 for stills and manual focus glass either. Canon FD glass looks so much more atmospheric in medium format.

The GFX 100 is going for under £3k used in mint condition now BTW.

The GFX 100 II is definitely worth saving up for when it comes down in price.

[gt3rs]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

6K 60p Standard RAW – 2600mbps

6K 60p Light RAW – 1800mbps

These are the bitrates for 6K RAW on the Canon R1

Do people still mind about manageable file sizes?

For me I never tend to go above 700Mbit.

Of course for 8K RAW on the R5 II the files are going to be even more gargantuan (2600mbps+)

One thing both Canon and Nikon continue to omit is any sort of anamorphic mode as well.

I posted multiple times Canon RAW is super quick in Resolve better than HW accelerated h265 variants and on par with XAVC. With CFExpress I don't need to copy over I can edit directly form the card for quick turnaround. 

I shoot mostly 8k 50p RAW R5c so 2600 Mbps.... 

If people don't shoot any action/sport, don't us AF, don't care about raw, don't shoot pictures, R5 II is the wrong camera. 

As always here most people that negatively comment never have used a R5, R5c, etc, in my domain action/sports/wildlife Panasonic and Fuji are super niche cameras.

On the price I will sell my R5 for 2k, buy the R5 II and keep the R5c. TCO of R5 2500$ over 4 years: 52$ a month. R5 II will be around the same. One time less a month in a restaurant and you are done.

 

[herein2020]

14 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

What is the niche part?

Genuinely curious!

The only thing missing for me personally is a fast compact long zoom like Tamron’s 70-180 f2.8

Otherwise lens-wise, there is just about anything you could wish for, native, adapted, cine…

OK body-wise, we’re waiting on a replacement for the S1H and S1R, but they are still highly capable and the S1R produces IMO the nicest files SOOC with their 5k Flat profile.

The Leica SL3 hints at what should be coming, though even if I had the cash, I would not spring for one as it’s not a good value proposition to me.

And maybe (hopefully) Sigma will also pop something out a la FP series again…

The bottom line is there are pros and cons to all systems but it seems that L Mount just has the least cons for me.

Canon actually remains the only major brand I have never owned. Ticked the boxes for; Lumix, Nikon, Fuji, Sony and Olympus, but Canon has always evaded me. Or I have evaded it…

For me it was always the lenses, using adapted Canon lenses kept AF from working at all with the S5. not sure if it is the same with the S1H. AF is very important to me, I literally never know what I am shooting or what situation I will be in when I get to a new type of project so I need every tool that I can get to ensure I meet the client's expectations. Canon's AF is supposed to be one of the best out there and I've still ran into situations where it struggles.

I also just never felt the same shooting photography with the Panasonic. Canon has never had an equal for me when it comes to photography and I have tested Nikon, Sony, and Panasonic at the display cases in the store.  For photography I actually use the full 45MP, my clients frequently need both portrait and landscape versions of images; landscape for their websites and portrait for social media, with 45MP I can losslessly crop to both resolutions while leaving headroom when filming to meet both requirements. 

 

7 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

I posted multiple times Canon RAW is super quick in Resolve better than HW accelerated h265 variants and on par with XAVC. With CFExpress I don't need to copy over I can edit directly form the card for quick turnaround. 

I shoot mostly 8k 50p RAW R5c so 2600 Mbps.... 

If people don't shoot any action/sport, don't us AF, don't care about raw, don't shoot pictures, R5 II is the wrong camera. 

As always here most people that negatively comment never have used a R5, R5c, etc, in my domain action/sports/wildlife Panasonic and Fuji are super niche cameras.

On the price I will sell my R5 for 2k, buy the R5 II and keep the R5c. TCO of R5 2500$ over 4 years: 52$ a month. R5 II will be around the same. One time less a month in a restaurant and you are done.

 

I feel that way too, if you shoot a wide variety of paying projects especially both photography and video it is easier to understand how the very strong features for both that the R5 II and Canon ecosystem offers are very appealing. The new R series cameras literally offer something for every scenario you could possibly face in a single body. Is it the absolute best at photography....no. Is it the absolute best at video....no. But when you only want to carry one body and you need to satisfy your paying client regardless of the project it is good enough 95% of the time. 

The Canon ecosystem also offers a very natural progression into cinema/longform content via the C70 where you can easily match CLOG3 and now with the R5II CLOG2 between a hybrid body and the C70. Canon is definitely pricey, they are certainly not without their controversy (cripple hammer, overheating, etc.) but I do feel like overall they cater to the do it all acceptably well category better than any other vendor except maybe the Nikon Z series which I don't know much about but which look fantastic on paper.