Is Panasonic rethinking high-end full frame mirrorless line-up?

[Thpriest]

Agree, they only really need to address cropping (faster readout) and some kind of ND if possible. They’ve got just about everything else right.

[Ninpo33]

All I know is that I’m super excited to be able to scoop up the older 4 year old tech for bargain prices right now. Older S bodies are dropping in value like crazy and if you need an extra camera to sit on a tripod for multi cam shoots we are really spoiled these days. I think I’m going to grab a Leica SL2 now that they are selling for $2,000 US. 
 

We’re reaching the point in video where photos were a few years back. A lot of cameras can do 4k/24 raw 12 bit and 4k/60p internal or external. Now it’s all about IBIS and AF and other features to help out filming or workflow. If you are comfortable with manual lenses and adapting things it really is a buyers market. 
 

Fun times. 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Ninpo33 said:

I think I’m going to grab a Leica SL2 now that they are selling for $2,000 US. 

I considered that because well, it’s a Leica and I wanted to scratch that itch, but in the end, the S1R is just a better camera.

If the SL2 had had an articulated screen though…

The SL3 though is close to perfection for me except for one thing, - the price…which is again why I am hoping for a S2R and am currently slumming it with Sony whilst I wait 😂

[Ninpo33]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I considered that because well, it’s a Leica and I wanted to scratch that itch, but in the end, the S1R is just a better camera.

😂

Yes, in the end I may still just go the S1R path except the extra money might be worth it for the L-Log since the Panasonic doesn’t have V-Log. Also the depreciation/resale is going to be way better on the Leica. 

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

We’re reaching the point in video where photos were a few years back. A lot of cameras can do 4k/24 raw 12 bit and 4k/60p internal or external. Now it’s all about IBIS and AF and other features to help out filming or workflow. If you are comfortable with manual lenses and adapting things it really is a buyers market. 

I agree, with the release of the sensor in DSLRs such as the Nikon D5200 or D7100 then there was no point for most people to upgrade their cameras when it comes to image quality. (well, ok, perhaps over a five year plus time span then you might see enough improvements to justify upgrade. Maybe.... as after all, is the Nikon Zfc really that much better image quality than the photos from an ancient Nikon D5200? Nah) 

So instead you're not buying for image quality, but for features. But even in this situation then even old DSLRs such as Nikon D7100/D500/D750/D800 often have plenty of features for the vast majority of casual (and even serious) users. 

Those who keep on feeling a drive to keep on upgrading likely fall into into one of these categories (or more than one!):

1) have a gear addiction / obsession 

2) fall into a very niche category 

3) have more money than common sense and/or have plenty of money to spend (thus the marginal value of a dollar is not the same for them as it is for me) 

4) are a top notch pro, and can write off a lot of these costs as "businesses expenses" while they're chasing marginal gains 

5) or maybe, still stuck in a mindset of a decade or two ago, when it made more sense that you "must" upgrade every generation 

I feel we're close to hitting this point for video with hybrid cameras, which we hit a long time ago for photos with image quality and features. 

"Good enough" image quality for video that you no longer need to constantly upgrade was hit a while ago with the likes of GH5S/S5mk1/a7Smk1/P4K/X-H1/etc

And as for feature sets that you'd want, depending on your point of view, we either already hit there quite a while ago, or we're rapidly getting soon to that point. 

 

[MrSMW]

12 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I feel we're close to hitting this point for video with hybrid cameras, which we hit a long time ago for photos with image quality and features. 

For me, that's about the sum of it and almost every camera is there or thereabouts such as...

The S1H didn't have the AF I needed or more recently, the LUT feature I wanted against the S5ii, which itself doesn't have the nicely damped shutter, the fully articulating and higher res rear screen plus the OLPF I'd prefer.

My Z6ii was slow in comparison to my Zf, but the Zf had trash ergonomics. The Z6iii should have and perhaps has fixed that, but some lens issues for me.

A few years back, the X1H had the ergos and nicer image, but the XT3 had the video specs, but the AF has always been a bit weak with Fuji. Not as trash as some make out, but not the best for sure.

Does the 'perfect' exist?

Kind of...

For my work, I can't really fault the S5ii which is why I now have 3 of the things. For video. For stills or hybrid, nah, - we're back to that rear screen and the shutter mech etc.

For stills, struggling to see past or fault my A7RV and the lens options I have...and the latter is only going to get better.

For hybrid use, well that one doesn't really exist for me in any single unit. Internal ND would fix that if the rest of the spec was to my requirements and it was not at the expense of something like IBIS, which is why any future S2H/S2R is of particular interest to me because I would rather be within one single lens ecosystem.

[Ninpo33]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I feel we're close to hitting this point for video with hybrid cameras, which we hit a long time ago for photos with image quality and features. 

"Good enough" image quality for video that you no longer need to constantly upgrade was hit a while ago with the likes of GH5S/S5mk1/a7Smk1/P4K/X-H1/etc

And as for feature sets that you'd want, depending on your point of view, we either already hit there quite a while ago, or we're rapidly getting soon to that point. 

 

One thing that’s really nice about picking up older tech is that a lot of the bugs have been worked out and there’s a whole knowledge base to dive into on forums like this. Cameras in particular seem to be released these days with half finished firmware and it could be several months before updates and fixes finally show up. Not to mention, major updates like on the S1 which unlocked all new features and made it a different camera altogether. 
 

Really nice to be able to pick something up for 1/4 the original price with the bugs all sorted and get to work. Not to mention the ability to have 2 or 3 older camera bodies for the price of a single new one. Now if they would just give us open gate on a few of the older cameras like the Sigma FP…!!!

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

For me, that's about the sum of it and almost every camera is there or thereabouts such as...

I think you definitely fall into one or more of these categories though (I'll happily admit I fall into at least one of these categories myself! But at least I'm consciously aware of it? Thus if I'm ever upgrading my stills camera, I won't go for a Z8 or Z6mk3, but rather a D500 or a D750):

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Those who keep on feeling a drive to keep on upgrading likely fall into into one of these categories (or more than one!):

1) have a gear addiction / obsession 

2) fall into a very niche category 

3) have more money than common sense and/or have plenty of money to spend (thus the marginal value of a dollar is not the same for them as it is for me) 

4) are a top notch pro, and can write off a lot of these costs as "businesses expenses" while they're chasing marginal gains 

5) or maybe, still stuck in a mindset of a decade or two ago, when it made more sense that you "must" upgrade every generation 

You're a professional, thus the marginal cost of an upgrade is even lower for you (because of tax write offs). 

Plus as a professional if an improvement gives even a barely measurable 1% improvement to your revenue that is still enough to  make it cost neutral to upgrade to this year's model. 

Also I think you can admit you're a bit of a gear addict? Who enjoys obsessing over camera tech 😉
(you wouldn't have thousands of posts talking about it if you didn't) 

  

46 minutes ago, Ninpo33 said:

One thing that’s really nice about picking up older tech is that a lot of the bugs have been worked out and there’s a whole knowledge base to dive into on forums like this. Cameras in particular seem to be released these days with half finished firmware and it could be several months before updates and fixes finally show up. Not to mention, major updates like on the S1 which unlocked all new features and made it a different camera altogether. 
 

Really nice to be able to pick something up for 1/4 the original price with the bugs all sorted and get to work. Not to mention the ability to have 2 or 3 older camera bodies for the price of a single new one.

For sure, I'd rather show up on a professional photoshoot with 3x Nikon D750 than one Nikon Z6mk3!  (plus having 3x D750 would only cost a bit more than half of what a single Z6mk3 would cost) 

 

[MrSMW]

11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Also I think you can admit you're a bit of a gear addict? Who enjoys obsessing over camera tech 😉
(you wouldn't have thousands of posts talking about it if you didn't) 

Not really…

In fact I hate tech and prefer technique/craft any day, except gear is easier to ramble about I guess!

Guilty of searching for the right tools specific to my needs for sure but that process has pretty much run its course now.

I’m not ‘done’ for sure, but nothing I have now is a ‘stop gap’ or experiment, - it just works.

The only thing I really want to do when it becomes possible and viable, is to bring it all in under one system and ideally, that would be L Mount.

It’s not quite possible (or rather is if we’re being pedantic, but with some major compromises) but I think will be in 2025.

It then just becomes a case of when for me.

But gear and tech actually is of interest to a point, but it’s pretty low level to me and it’s more a case of:

I need to do X. What options exist that will allow me to do X? If X is not available, how close can I get.

I have probably had a higher number of X’s than most and have moved my own benchmarks for those X’s, but as above, that’s been more about necessity combined with a lot of trial & error, rather than any interest in ‘kit’.

I don’t fit into any of the normal boxes. Never have and never will!

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, MrSMW said:

In fact I hate tech and prefer technique/craft any day, except gear is easier to ramble about I guess!

Relative to your own interest in technique/craft, sure, you like gear far far less. Relatively speaking.

But compared to the average buyer of a camera at Best Buy today? You're a waaaay more gear obsessed nerd than they are 😉

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

But compared to the average buyer of a camera at Best Buy today? You're a waaaay more gear obsessed nerd than they are

I think connoisseur-aficionado is the term you are looking for 😜

[KnightsFan]

On 8/15/2024 at 1:26 AM, MrSMW said:

I’d be happy with the halfway house of an option between the lens and body.

Fair. On narrative sets, swapping front filters isn't much more trouble than swapping rear filters imo. Most (all?) adapter-based options either have artifact-prone polarization-based ND adjustments, or require the physical filter to be swapped to change levels. So I don't think that gives me much benefit.

I've lived without internal NDs for so long that it's not a huge deal to me. But it would be convenient to have them. On the other hand, every other project, I have bad rolling shutter artifacts in 1-2 shots...so not particularly common, but common enough that the Z6III's sensor looks pretty good to me right now.

[Al Dolega]

I was resigned to external ND's for a long time as I just didn't have any choice at my budget, so I got used to it. Then I bought a camcorder as a B cam and now it reminds how convenient internal ND's are every time I shoot 😄

[Vadim]

On 01.08.2024 at 01:24, sanveer said:

Panasonic нужен новый датчик больше 24 МП и намного меньше 60 МП (где-то около 40 МП, если он хочет 8k). Этот датчик подойдет для большинства моделей Panasonic FF. Он должен отлично подходить для видео и иметь достаточно высокое разрешение для фото. 

I have to disagree. On the contrary, I believe that every manufacturer (not only Sony) must provide at least one video-focused camera with a moderate resolution sensor, no more than 4K. Panasonic has already released the extremely successful GH5S a few years ago, but it has MFT sensor. Now it is the turn of the full frame.  If Panasonic makes S1H II based on 10MP FF sensor it will solve the problems of the old S1H, so we shall get at once:
 - faster readout with less rolling shutter;

 - 4K UHD 60p without any cropping;

 - better low light performance due to the largest pixel size. It will be the new low light king, which may well surpass a7s III and will also come in handy to astrophotographers.

[IronFilm]

Am amused at how your quote was in Russian, even though neither sanveer or your own comment was in Russian 😛 

On 9/10/2024 at 5:26 AM, Vadim said:

I have to disagree. On the contrary, I believe that every manufacturer (not only Sony) must provide at least one video-focused camera with a moderate resolution sensor, no more than 4K. Panasonic has already released the extremely successful GH5S a few years ago, but it has MFT sensor. Now it is the turn of the full frame.  If Panasonic makes S1H II based on 10MP FF sensor it will solve the problems of the old S1H,

I too would like a S1Hmk2 with the a7S/FX3 12 megapixel sensor (or heck, I'd love a FX30mk2 with a 12 megapixel sensor!), but I suspect Panasonic wouldn't do that as they want S1H to be more of a hybrid camera that can capture the photographer market too. And 12 megapixels can't do that in 2024, nobody gets excited over a D700/D3 12MP body any longer. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Am amused at how your quote was in Russian, even though neither sanveer or your own comment was in Russian

First Ukraine, then EOSHD.

Slightly different tactics this time round starting with slipping in a few responses in Cyrillic and see if anyone notices.

But nothing gets past The Beard.

Israel has ‘Iron Dome’. We have @IronFilm

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I too would like a S1Hmk2 with the a7S/FX3 12 megapixel sensor (or heck, I'd love a FX30mk2 with a 12 megapixel sensor!), but I suspect Panasonic wouldn't do that as they want S1H to be more of a hybrid camera that can capture the photographer market too

Agree, they won’t, it’s far too bold and anyway, people will point and laugh at a tiny 10/12mp sensor and quote ‘2010 you losers’.

Plus whilst a dedicated video unit might suit some users, the hybrid market surely is much bigger? S1H vs BS1H, - how did that work out?

Case in point…though I am just one user, I used my S1H as much or even more for stills than I did video.

I do think though the same body with 2 units is the way to go, basically identical in ergos and operation etc, but one being more video focused and one more stills.

I like what Fuji did with the XH2 and XH2S.

Bigger sensor for the stills unit but skip some of the fancier video spec such as 100/120fps and a few ‘pro’ codecs and have all that shizzle in a smaller sensor video unit.

They could probably get away with something around 20mp, but any lower and as above, people will snigger behind their hands and bitch openly in YouTube comments.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

They could probably get away with something around 20mp, but any lower and as above, people will snigger behind their hands and bitch openly in YouTube comments.

I find it interesting how Nikon managed to pull off going "backwards" with 24 megapixels for all their DX cameras until their top notch high end DX camera the Nikon D500 came out with "just 20 megapixels". 

Then the Z50 / Z30 / Zfc carried with all having "only 20 megapixels". 

Ok, it's only a very small reduction, but it warms the heart to see Nikon fighting back against the obsessive megapickles crazies. 

[MrSMW]

20 I think would be a very acceptable figure.

[Thpriest]

A faster 6K sensor would work for me. It’s really useful. If the could push the second dual ISO up to 6400 it might five it that little bit extra it could do with in low light

[MrSMW]

I’d be fine with a higher base also if it meant a bit more DR. Could always do with a little more if it’s available!