Is Panasonic rethinking high-end full frame mirrorless line-up?

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

The other companies don't have to convince people that they will be around for the long haul. Lumix does. Lumix also needs to increase their market share. The way to do that is to collaborate with users (and, I hate to admit it, try to win over the influencers) and be more transparent. That includes telling people that follow ups to the S1 lineup is in the pipeline instead of just absolute silence.

This is the key to it for me also.

’Influencer’ is a bit of a dirty word to some and has some negative connotations of being nothing more than a shallow paid shill and that is the case with some if not many, but not all.

The key to it would be collaborating with the right people. But they NEED to shout to survive. It’s just how shit works these days.

And yes, they do not necessarily need to say what it when though a roadmap would be nice but at least have the courtesy to let your professional heavily invested users know that (if) a next gen model is coming.

This recent launch has highlighted that because the community are talking about it left right and centre as a negative and LUMIX are not in a position to have much if any negativity.

As above in this thread, they are so close…

S5ii/x = good release

GH7 = good release

S9 = lukewarm release

S5D = WTF release

No pro lenses in a while (not too bothered as Sigma has picked up some of that slack)

Actual most recent lenses = a manual f8 pancake and now a pretty slow compact short travel zoom?

Firmware updates = pretty good

I’d be happy if they just used the S1H body and stuck the guts of the S5iix in it and called it an S1Hx. I’d buy it in a heartbeat.

 

[Andrew Reid]

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

S5ii/x = good release

GH7 = good release

S9 = lukewarm release

S5D = WTF release

Let's look at the bright side now...

The LSI and firmware keeps being developed, this is a good sign as they are expensive to do. Panasonic may have cut the budget but at least they are still getting access to the latest chips, new encoders, ProRes, and so on. Also, both the GH6 and GH7 had brand new sensors, seemingly not from Sony - perhaps this indicates a switch to OnSemi, makers of the ARRI ALEXA 35 sensor, or even a switch to a joint-venture Panasonic managed fab. This would explain a delay for the flagship full frame cameras with new full frame sensors, if they cannot just pick a Sony up off the shelf.

The S9 was certainly a lukewarm move... The lovely but niche Sigma Fp has shown that there's not a particularly mainstream demand for very small full frame cameras, as the Sony a7 stuff is small enough for most but with the extra features you need such as an EVF and IBIS.

The S9 is also a very cost driven product, when you pick one up in your hand you will realise it.

But again there's the new processor and firmware, with extensive LUT support and latest gen phase-detect AF.

The S5D is of course the strangest move imaginable, but it also could have a positive connotation...

The S5D is born of a collaboration with DJI who are in the L-mount alliance.

It could be a sign that DJI and Panasonic are developing a closer relationship with the intent to produce a full frame DJI mirrorless camera with L-mount.

DJI are an extremely innovative company and this could really be quite a special beast if it was to come to market next year along with a Panasonic S1H Mark II with a similar sensor (and huge DR) to the ALEXA 35.

So I've not lost hope yet, just a bit concerned and worried because nobody least of all me wants to see a diminished Panasonic presence in the camera market.

One of the great things about the Japanese is that they have largely avoided the monopolies and duopolies and mergers that you see in the US tech sector... Does one country need 6 or 7 camera companies all taking sales off eachother? Probably not, but it is good for us.

[Emanuel]

I don't see anything wrong on this release TBH...

Only lacks 4K 120fps.

But, you have no time limit if you need. Promising dynamic range on FF small and lightweight form factor.

5.9K recording from HDMI + anamorphic 3536x2656/50p there, affordable price...

Well, I even think I will be tempted myself to buy it, one of these days ; ) After all, it will match the inventory of fine glass for my 6K FF Blackmagic camera too!

[Andrew Reid]

Yes a lot to like in the S9, my vision for Panasonic is just more ambitious - we want them to take customers off Canon and Sony, and compete on cutting edge.

The new strategy has its merits...

Micro Four Thirds topping out with phase-detect AF on the GH7 is a nice surprise, I'd thought they'd cancel after GH6.

The focus on small full frame bodies and lenses to replace Micro Four Thirds is a clear new direction... 18-40mm lens on an S9 is an able replacement for a Micro Four Thirds cam.

But Panasonic risk losing the halo effect on the high-end stuff unless they get the S1H Mark II out soon at very least.

S1 is probably dead, the S5 series has replaced it.

The S1R is probably dead, the Leica SL3 has replaced it 🙂

[ArashM]

44 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes a lot to like in the S9, my vision for Panasonic is just more ambitious - we want them to take customers off Canon and Sony, and compete on cutting edge.

Just think how much more successful the S9 would have been if it only had an EVF and a hotshoe 

I personally would pick one up instead of hoping to get a Fuji X100-6 one day.

[John Matthews]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The focus on small full frame bodies and lenses to replace Micro Four Thirds is a clear new direction... 18-40mm lens on an S9 is an able replacement for a Micro Four Thirds cam.

So, it's a 9-20mm f/2.3-3.2 variable aperture lens equivalent at 155g. Would I get that for a small M43 camera? I’m not so sure. The current kit is the 12-32mm f/3.5-5.6 (with IS) at only 70g. I almost like this equivalency game in reverse—somehow, M43 is even more impressive. The GM5 already offers so much more than the S9, especially for photography, and it's way lighter and smaller. If we’re after small, Panasonic messed up the format. They should have put a GH7 sensor in there with a proper shutter and hot shoe. Again, it was a marketing snafu, in my opinion.

[Al Dolega]

If L-mount's flange distance had been made just .75mm shorter, it would be the same as m4/3. Then they could have avoided the whole which-system-for-a-compact-camera debate, and the S9 could have just come with an adapter for m4/3 lenses. But then we'd have nothing to complain about!

[Ninpo33]

On 10/9/2024 at 3:05 PM, newfoundmass said:

That includes telling people that follow ups to the S1 lineup is in the pipeline instead of just absolute silence.

This x1000.

[Ninpo33]

13 hours ago, ArashM said:

Just think how much more successful the S9 would have been if it only had an EVF and a hotshoe 

I personally would pick one up instead of hoping to get a Fuji X100-6 one day.

Honestly, it’s just not the camera if you seriously need those features in 2024. A Fuji is there specifically for those shooters. It’s really a niche crowd in my opinion. 

[John Matthews]

Any comments? I think these setups are competing rather well with each other:

S9 + 18-40 = 641g

S5ii + 18-40 = 869g

R8 + 24-50 = 731g

Mind you, only the S5ii and R8 are real cameras with EVF, mechanical shutter, and hotshoe.

[newfoundmass]

On 10/10/2024 at 1:41 AM, MrSMW said:

S9 = lukewarm release

Honestly, if they had released the new kit lens with it (I'm guessing it was supposed to be but it was delayed) the S9 would have been a much more compelling release on launch. I am debating getting it now, because that set up is so small and inconspicuous, something I haven't had since getting rid of my Gx85.

[MrSMW]

The lens does not interest me but exactly why plus the record limit, that I put it as a ‘lukewarm’ release.

Not bothered myself with it not having a viewfinder or hotshoe or for that matter, a grip as I fixed 2 of those immediately with a slim fit SmallRig cage.

Well grip and cold shoe and have not used an EVF in years.

The cage adds barely any weight or size but transforms the handling and to some extent, the build.

If LUMIX do pop out a sequel to the S1R, I would almost certainly pick one up again (an S9) to use as a sidekick with a smaller wide on it for both stills & video, just not as my main unit.

But as an ‘S2R’ looks ever less likely now and because I am with Sony for stills since early this year, a ZV-E1 will fill that same role in 2025.

[ntblowz]

18 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Any comments? I think these setups are competing rather well with each other:

S9 + 18-40 = 641g

S5ii + 18-40 = 869g

R8 + 24-50 = 731g

Mind you, only the S5ii and R8 are real cameras with EVF, mechanical shutter, and hotshoe.

R8 + 24-50 should be 671, 24-50 is only 210g but some website report it as 270g

[MrSMW]

18 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Any comments? I think these setups are competing rather well with each other

Out of those though, I'd only need to pick up the new zoom having 3X S5ii bodies and it would be my pick regardless as it is actually better in almost every way over the S9.

Pity there is no real dinky Sony lens if I do pick up that ZV-E1 next year as intended which for work purposes would have the Tamron 20-40mm f2.8 welded to it.

For a walkabout/travel, Tamron 28-75 f2.8 I also have would cover my needs but then again, my A7RV is not much bigger or heavier but far more capable so I'd take that with it's 61mp cropping ability.

But sorry, polluted this thread with more dirty Sony talk. I will go wash my mouth out after just mentioning once more, especially for stills, the A7RV is an INSANE quality vs compact size camera 😉

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

R8 + 24-50 should be 671, 24-50 is only 210g but some website report it as 270g

Yeah, not sure why there's the discrepancy. I also made a mistake with the S5ii. I accidentally gave the S5 weight. The S5ii is a little heavier:

R8 + 24-50 is 671g

S5ii + 18-40 is 895g

S9 + 18-40 is 641g

It should be noted that the S5ii combo is fully weather-sealed and it has an integrated fan. The other two have none of that. I have to hand it to Panasonic for give us a useful, weather-resistant kit lens at only 155g.

[John Matthews]

It would seem that I'm still here:

Why did Panasonic move away from this? Interestingly, Ian Berry finally "settled" with the Olympus E-M1 iii, probably just before they sold to OMDS.

[Parker]

Word on the street (heard a bit cryptically  this week from a Panasonic rep) is to wait for a February 2025 announcement, most likely a new S-series cam 🤞🏻🤞🏻

 Hopefully we won't be disappointed!

[newfoundmass]

17 hours ago, MrSMW said:

The lens does not interest me

It wouldn't normally interest me, but on the S9 that's a nice compact set up and the images I've seen with it are pretty decent. For shooting in public where you're not trying to draw attention, that's a really nice little set up. I'm take the slow lens with variable aperture if it means I can have a small setup like that I can take anywhere with me.

[KnightsFan]

16 hours ago, John Matthews said:

R8 + 24-50 is 671g

S5ii + 18-40 is 895g

S9 + 18-40 is 641g

Based on focal length alone, I'd rather have 18-40. No idea about optical quality, but I've often found 28mm to be too long for landscapes, and it's pretty easy to crop if I need a 50mm FOV.

However I'm also going to make a guess that the R8 is more comfortable to hold. I don't particularly like the grip shape on the S5 series. I miss handling the NX1.

[IronFilm]

On 10/5/2024 at 9:06 AM, Andrew Reid said:

This could be what has happened... Panasonic effectively pulling out of the high-end and leaving it to Leica, and will now only focus on the mid-range enthusiast market.

If it means giving us stills cameras ("S5R") and a video targeted camera ("S5H") with high end features / performance but at a mid range enthusiast price point, then I'm all for this! 

If it means more S5D, then I'd be sad.