Is Panasonic rethinking high-end full frame mirrorless line-up?

[MrSMW]

20 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Not too bothered about 8K... I am sure Pana are in a dilemma about that too

Possibly a decision that has delayed any successor?

In the eyes of the great unwashed, more is better and 8k beats 6k in that regard.

Well actually it beats it in resolution so it really does beat 6k…but when we factor in everything else, is 6k more than enough?

For most of us, most of the time, yes.

For me it’s the sweet spot and if Lumix go 8k because they feel they have to more for marketing purposes, then fair enough, but I hope they can excel in other areas and retain 6k.

I suspect the bean counters will have forced an 8k scenario…

All assuming we get a successor and there are more signs we will than will not.

What and when remains the biggest Q…

My biggest fear though is they take too long on this. 

They have momentum from the S5ii and a fairly loyal fan base from the S1/H/R and even the S9 launch has caused some additional publicity, but they really do need to get their finger out when the loyalists start getting impatient.

They already lost me for stills and though no danger for video at this time or even the foreseeable future, but if no successor to the S1 line appears at all, I would probably end up moving my video needs over to Sony somewhere down the line. And then they will have lost me forever.

I could still come back to L Mount for stills but were one camera and one lens away from that for me.

I do think they are the best all round option for my level/needs for video and so so close for stills and just need one more step and they will be there.

I hope so because Sony for me is like the Borg. It can be beaten in certain areas but it’s just a relentless overwhelming option that can tick just about any box…but I find it just lacking a bit in soul. Like the Borg.

[Al Dolega]

I think 8K depends on whether they do an S1R/S1H type split, or just go for a single unified high-end model that is both high-res enough for the photogs (40+MP), which would kinda inevitably mean 8K for video; but also reads out and processes fast enough to keep the video people placated, if not happy. I think this route would mean keeping the mechanical shutter which might preclude internal ND. I don't really see this route working out because the stills performance probably still wouldn't be competitive enough to attract Can/Sony/Nik shooters, and video improvements would really be iterative/incremental.

If they kept them split I would also much prefer the video model's res to stay around 24MP/6K... just crank up the other specs. Like what we've seen with the Z6III, just hopefully without its DR and noise issues. Drop the mechanical shutter and put in the internal ND everyone has been waiting for. With all the other current features brought over (open gate, 32bit float, combo screen, IBIS improvements, AF, etc), usability and practicality go through the roof and nobody in this market gives a damn that it doesn't do 8K, and it would probably be the next 5DII, GH2, GH5 type landmark camera, at least if the price stays under $4K.

Really it all comes down to what sensors are available. If Sony can't/won't give them a decent starting point then the S line might be done for.

 

[Beritar]

On 8/1/2024 at 8:58 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Yes over 4 and 5 years, that points to something quite wrong doesn't it?

Is Pana soft quitting on us? I sincerely hope not.

Also you will notice the SL3 has also quite an old off the shelf Sony sensor, same as A7R IV and Sigma Fp-L.

Certainly nothing as cutting edge as a Z6 or A1.

Where's the L2 partnership going exactly? Into the old parts bins for cheap?

I hope not as well, but when I think about their last S Pro lenses, the last one is from 2020 ... The 50mm S Pro and 24-70mm S Pro are among the best lenses I have used, but more than 4 years without S Pro lenses is concerning.
I know Sigma released some high end lenses for L mount, but I always prefer the output of the S Pro lenses.

[Caleb Genheimer]

On 8/2/2024 at 7:06 AM, Andrew Reid said:

and phase-detect AF in the S1H Mark II

I’m a bit wary of phase detect honestly. They’ve proven with the second round of S-Series bodies that it DOES ding the SNR/DR a bit, so there’s a trade-off. If they do simultaneous dual-gain ADCs or 16-bit ADCs, then it’s probably fine for them to also do phase detect. Otherwise, it’s just gonna put the ubiquitous 12-bit ADC on the back-foot. Plenty of cameras rocking that kinda sensor already, they need to stand out.

 

But then, I don’t own any AF lenses. I want a camera that can keep doing this kinda stuff, just better: 

 

[Caleb Genheimer]

On 8/1/2024 at 4:30 PM, Andrew Reid said:

With the sensor in the Alexa 35 being made by Onsemi, exceeding the spec of the proposed Panasonic organic sensor, it would make more sense to work with Omsemi if they were not to go Sony like everyone else, rather than continue to develop their own totally different tech. I could be wrong - let's see.

Also I’ll buy it sight unseen if they use ANYONE other than Sony Semi for the sensor. The entire industry needs to buck their stranglehold somehow, it kinda kills innovation. I’m really hoping that the RGBW sensors from BMD trickle down to budget models and shake up the market. We need better ADCs and/or dual gain now. Sony has squeezed BSI for all it’s worth. The codecs are ahead of the sensors honestly.

[ac6000cw]

6 hours ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

Also I’ll buy it sight unseen if they use ANYONE other than Sony Semi for the sensor. The entire industry needs to buck their stranglehold somehow, it kinda kills innovation. I’m really hoping that the RGBW sensors from BMD trickle down to budget models and shake up the market. We need better ADCs and/or dual gain now. Sony has squeezed BSI for all it’s worth. The codecs are ahead of the sensors honestly.

There are downsides to RGBW color filter arrays as well e.g. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3804421 and https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=117952

Engineering is full of compromises - you often have to trade improving one aspect of performance for degrading another. Which ones are the most important is often application dependent. It's not just about pure image quality either e.g. with RGBW you have four streams of 'color' data to initially process instead of three, so that might use more power - more heat to dissipate/shorter battery life.

People have suggested or tried many variations of CFAs over the years - there's a list of some of them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_filter_array#List_of_color_filter_arrays - but the near 50-year old Bayer array is still the most common, probably because it has a good balance of performance characteristics.

At the end of the day, the DR of a sensor is limited by the thermal/electrical noise floor at the low-light end and saturation at the high-light end. Simultaneous dual-gain readout/conversion or higher bit-depth ADCs make more of that theoretical DR usable, but adds circuitry to the sensor which might add noise and heat (and probably cost).

[Caleb Genheimer]

7 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

There are downsides to RGBW color filter arrays as well e.g. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3804421 and https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=117952

Engineering is full of compromises - you often have to trade improving one aspect of performance for degrading another. Which ones are the most important is often application dependent. It's not just about pure image quality either e.g. with RGBW you have four streams of 'color' data to initially process instead of three, so that might use more power - more heat to dissipate/shorter battery life.

People have suggested or tried many variations of CFAs over the years - there's a list of some of them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_filter_array#List_of_color_filter_arrays - but the near 50-year old Bayer array is still the most common, probably because it has a good balance of performance characteristics.

At the end of the day, the DR of a sensor is limited by the thermal/electrical noise floor at the low-light end and saturation at the high-light end. Simultaneous dual-gain readout/conversion or higher bit-depth ADCs make more of that theoretical DR usable, but adds circuitry to the sensor which might add noise and heat (and probably cost).

I think dual sensitivity should be done in the CFA, that’s an argument for high resolution sensors that I can get behind… basically do an array of ND over some of the photosites. It could also be done at the ADC level with a mix of different sensitivities, but really, doing it at the filter array is a wholly non-electric way to get varied sensitivity.

 

Really, I have two potential releases I’m waiting on: this Panasonic “S2H,” and an inevitable Pyxis “pro” with built-in ND. If neither of those fit my needs, I’m just gonna buy an old, used Arri.

[Ninpo33]

On 8/2/2024 at 5:06 AM, Andrew Reid said:

I still have my S1H and am always pleasantly surprised by how well the image holds up vs the latest and greatest stuff (Z9, A1, etc.)

i.e. it has a better image entirely... especially in low light... Just not the same super fast sensor readout.

I think the OLPF helps give it a more natural look too.

Did you end up selling your Leica SLS? I remember there were some issues with power management or something? I'm looking at a cheap used S1R right now but seeing the SLS dip to $2,600 US has me wondering if it might be a good time to revisit it. The SL3 is getting really bad reviews.

What would you say about the difference between the two in 2024? Mostly interested in the 5k 4:3 mode but having L-Log sounds nice as compared to just HLG or "Flat" in the S1R

[eatstoomuchjam]

On 8/1/2024 at 3:11 PM, Ninpo33 said:

Agreed...!!! No more sluggish HDMI delay. I would love to actually be able to pull focus from a cheap monitor/recorder. At least the new EVF from Kinefinity is now out and is an option for cameras with SDI.

 https://evf.kinefinity.com/product/eagle-sdi-e-viewfinder-black/

The Z Cam EVF already has SDI and is cheaper (and comes with built-in wifi transmission).

[Al Dolega]

Some speculation on the A7V and the sensor it might use:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/next-set-of-wild-sony-a7v-specs-44mp-4k120p-price-close-to-3000-euro/

Maybe this is what the S1HII uses? If so that would push it back to summer 2025, assuming the rumor is accurate that the A7V would release in early 2025, and that Sony would not allow Panasonic to release a camera with it before them. So basically an entire year more before the S1HII. Really hope that isn't the case, I think that might be too long.

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

So basically an entire year more before the S1HII

I hope not…but at the same time, the S5ii’s are perfectly fine in the role I have them in.

I would rather start next year with just 2x S5ii’s having traded the third for something new and shiny just for the sake of having something new and shiny, but at the same time, will make for a cheap year if not!

I do think my now dearly departed S1H needs replacing with something equally special at some point though…

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 8/4/2024 at 11:06 PM, Caleb Genheimer said:

Also I’ll buy it sight unseen if they use ANYONE other than Sony Semi for the sensor. The entire industry needs to buck their stranglehold somehow, it kinda kills innovation. I’m really hoping that the RGBW sensors from BMD trickle down to budget models and shake up the market. We need better ADCs and/or dual gain now. Sony has squeezed BSI for all it’s worth. The codecs are ahead of the sensors honestly.

I guess we still have the mistery about how makes the 25mp sensor of the GH6/7 and G9Mk II?

In the launch, Panasonic hinted that it was supplied by a "unusual party", if I remember correctly.

[Thpriest]

I hope they aren't going to pull out of the market as they've finally produced what we've always wanted, the usual solid Lumix cameras but with good AF!

There are loads of super offers for Lumix camera at the official retailers here in Spain. Free 85mm 1.8 with every S5mk2 as well as discounts on other packs with more lenses. I hope that doesn't mean they are clearing out stock before closing shop!

 

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I hope they aren't going to pull out of the market

I think if by the end of the year, there is no kind of solid rumour, never mind any official announcement, I'd start to get concerned personally.

Then if by Spring, the same, then I would be extremely worried...but I don't think it will happen.

Concerned/worried, why?

Because 3/4 of my kit is L Mount and whilst it would still work for X amount of time, it would not forever and value would plummet.

But at the same time, not really concerned because even if I got say just 3 years pro use out of it and sold it all for buttons, it would have been an OK cost vs turnover proposition.

But I don't think that will happen.

I think Lumix just have a bit of an image/marketing problem more than anything rather than a product-line one.

If they get the next gen S1R and S1H right, (I don't think they will do a vanilla 'S2' as the S5ii fills that role) then it carries on.

If any S2R/S2H flops for whatever reason...which if that was the case would either be because they got the product spectacularly wrong, but more likely too late to market and/or marketing, then yes, I think their longevity would be doomed.

They would do themselves a big favour IMO by at least having some kind of strong official hint re. what is coming!

[Thpriest]

37 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

They would do themselves a big favour IMO by at least having some kind of strong official hint re. what is coming!

Totally agree.

[Al Dolega]

On 8/7/2024 at 12:40 PM, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

I guess we still have the mistery about how makes the 25mp sensor of the GH6/7 and G9Mk II?

In the launch, Panasonic hinted that it was supplied by a "unusual party", if I remember correctly.

I vaguely remember something being said/speculated around the GH6 launch that it was from TowerJazz, or whatever they're called now? We need @androidladin here, he knows all the juicy sensor gossip.

[MrSMW]

Well that of the S1R (47mp) was supposed to have come from TowerJazz and was (and still is) an excellent sensor.

Being beholden to Sony, as so many are, can't be ideal can it?

[androidlad]

8 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

I vaguely remember something being said/speculated around the GH6 launch that it was from TowerJazz, or whatever they're called now? We need @androidladin here, he knows all the juicy sensor gossip.

GH6's sensor was designed by Panasonic and OEM manufactured by Taiwan Nuvoton Technology (which acquired Panasonic's semiconductor business in 2020, and shares a 49% stake in Panasonic's wafer fab joint venture with Towerjazz)

[KnightsFan]

It really looks like Panasonic is getting some momentum with improved AF. Hopefully their extended time between releases just means they don't want to bang out incremental upgrades. From my admittedly distant view, the S1->S5->S5II releases each brought a substantial upgrade, more so than many other product lines. With the new XLR2 module and 32 bit float, they entered a whole new realm of camera feature, and it would be odd if they didn't bring that to their FF L-mount line.

I hope Panasonic adds 3 things to a new S1H or BS1H model.

1. Faster readout--this is the only image recording upgrade I care for, compared to the S5

2. Compatible with their 32 bit float XLR module. I assume any flagship cameras will support it going forward.

3. Internal NDs. I guess at this point I'm fine living without them, but we can always hope, right?

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

3. Internal NDs. I guess at this point I'm fine living without them, but we can always hope, right?

I’d be happy with the halfway house of an option between the lens and body.