Is Panasonic rethinking high-end full frame mirrorless line-up?

[IronFilm]

On 10/8/2024 at 4:51 AM, Davide DB said:

The S5 was never declared EOL so according to their insanity, I would choose the S5 or S5II depending on my needs.

Nothing wrong with this approach, it's what Sony has been doing very successfully for a number of years. 

Can't afford the latest a7Rmk3? That's fine, maybe we can tempt you with the latest and cheaper a7mk3? Oh, that's still not cheap enough for you? Well look, we have an older a7mk2 still available for sale! What, not even that is cheap enough for you? No problem, we've got you, here is an OG a7mk1!

And Sony is still doing this strategy even today. 

Look at B&H, where both an a7mk2 and an a7mk3 and an a7mk4 is available for sale!

I see nothing at all wrong with Panasonic keeping around the Panasonic S5mk1 at a cheaper price. (currently US$1.4K https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1581612-REG/panasonic_lumix_dc_s5_mirrorless_digital.html)

Even better if they keep on bringing it down in price, brand new $1.2K S5mk1 by Christmas? Sub $1K S5mk1 in 2025? 

[IronFilm]

On 10/8/2024 at 12:51 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Canon, what can I say - they just don't deserve to be that far ahead when there are so many better options behind from Sony, Nikon and Fuji. People... their habits die hard don't they. Makes me think they rushed out the original EOS R just to bind people into the RF lenses early.

Canon made a misstep with the EOS-M series. 

Had to get out the EOS R, otherwise Sony would have ran away with the FF mirrorless niche. 

 

On 10/8/2024 at 3:39 PM, eatstoomuchjam said:

Keep in mind that those numbers are for "cameras" and not for MILC.  Like I've heard that the Canon V10 is is weirdly popular in some regions.  What's less clear is whether that's all digital or not - I've heard that Instax sells crazy well, but I've not heard numbers associated with that.

Without those then Fujifilm would have an even smaller percentage? Would they even be #4? Or would Panasonic?

On 10/8/2024 at 7:33 PM, ND64 said:

And still selling EF-S at a loss

Is it a loss? They've stripped away the DSLR to a bare bones no frills experience with the Canon Rebel T7, remember its RRP was US$550. So is $400 really that much less all this time later? Canon has long ago recovered the R&D costs for this, what's the marginal cost for each extra unit now? 

And Canon would 100x rather any new buyer of a Canon Rebel T7 is joining the Canon family, rather than buying say a refurbished Nikon D3500 or a secondhand Panasonic G7 or secondhand Sony a6000.

On 10/10/2024 at 6:21 PM, John Matthews said:

I'm no expert, but I can clearly see some avenues where Lumix has chosen to put their energy:

• PDAF (The AF has seen crazy amounts of innovation in only 20 months)
• Processing (Computational features like Live Composite mode and Hybrid Zoom)
• Tools (In many cases, these are another level above the competition, especially for anamorphic)

Their approach seems like one for the long term, with above-the-neck implementations that others don’t have. Now, they need to give us a body that includes a slightly more modern sensor—not even the latest and greatest (though that would be welcome). Again, they’re releasing firmware that includes NEW features for old cameras. That should be celebrated. Give us consistency and reliability, not just the checkboxes that say '4K 120fps 10bit 4:2:2 with AF and no crop.' For my usage, as long as the focus is on 24fps and image quality with tons of tools, that’s money better spent.

Agreed, personally this is an approach I'm glad to see Panasonic doing. 

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

If it means giving us stills cameras ("S5R") and a video targeted camera ("S5H") with high end features / performance but at a mid range enthusiast price point, then I'm all for this! 

I would actually be happy and buy an S5ii with nothing more than an updated soft release shutter mech as in terms of feel and sound.

I’d prefer to also have a higher res screen as a bonus, but they could stop there and call it a S5ii.001 and I’d be a happy boy.

Stick a larger sensor in without sacrificing low light capability or DR, happier still.

Beyond that, zero actual needs.

[ND64]

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Canon has long ago recovered the R&D costs for this

There is still BoM to recover. And at least $100 goes to the retailer. 

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, ND64 said:

There is still BoM to recover.

Yes, but how much is that really?

[newfoundmass]

18 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Nothing wrong with this approach, it's what Sony has been doing very successfully for a number of years. 

Can't afford the latest a7Rmk3? That's fine, maybe we can tempt you with the latest and cheaper a7mk3? Oh, that's still not cheap enough for you? Well look, we have an older a7mk2 still available for sale! What, not even that is cheap enough for you? No problem, we've got you, here is an OG a7mk1!

And Sony is still doing this strategy even today. 

Look at B&H, where both an a7mk2 and an a7mk3 and an a7mk4 is available for sale!

I see nothing at all wrong with Panasonic keeping around the Panasonic S5mk1 at a cheaper price. (currently US$1.4K https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1581612-REG/panasonic_lumix_dc_s5_mirrorless_digital.html)

Even better if they keep on bringing it down in price, brand new $1.2K S5mk1 by Christmas? Sub $1K S5mk1 in 2025? 

Honestly I'd consider dropping the S5 to near fire sale pricing as the entry level option into the L-mount/Lumix full frame family. I'd argue that it's still a great value at its current price, but there is just so much competition in that price range. The RP, R8, Z5, and A7C are all cheaper, and some of those even come with a kit lens for less. I'd definitely argue that the S5 is a superior camera to all of those, but Lumix is at an inherent disadvantage because Canon, Nikon and Sony have a much larger user base. So create a real incentive to try and entice people to dip their toe in.

 

For all of their flaws, and there are a lot of them, Canon has always been smart when it comes to getting casual users to buy their cameras. The RP with a 24-105mm f/4-7.1 lens is $1,118. Is it a crappy lens? Absolutely, but for most people the first lens they use is the kit lens. I'd argue that Lumix's kit lenses are genuinely good lenses and are nicer than Canon and Sony, but they don't have anything comparable to the super cheap options from them.

[Andrew Reid]

Panasonic need to find their unique appeal again, they are trying to be too much like the others.

Panasonic will not beat Sony at the same game.

How about a captivating XPan digital camera though, with a panoramic screen and sensor, and in the same sort of body design as a beautiful Hasselblad original XPan to boot.

How about a different form factor for the S1H II that leans into the video features rather than just copying the plain old DSLR style body shape that the camera industry has been defaulting too since about 1961?

How about starting a whole new niche, which then becomes really popular with mass appeal.

There's a lot they can do other than simply trying to out-spec and out-price Sony.

[BTM_Pix]

45 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Panasonic need to find their unique appeal again, they are trying to be too much like the others.

Fujifilm have had Panasonic’s pants off with the X-5M release today.

It’s offering the upgrade from the compact MFT cameras that Panasonic refuse to do and cuts the price in half from the still sat on the launchpad S9 and has appropriately sized lenses to boot.

It also leverages the kudos that the X100 has created in the market that they are trying to break into.

Panasonic should’ve made this camera two or even three years ago - particularly when Leica vacated the APS-C area discontinuing the CL and TL - but instead they put an MFT sensor in a FF body and priced it even higher.

56 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

How about a captivating XPan digital camera though, with a panoramic screen and sensor, and in the same sort of body design as a beautiful Hasselblad original XPan to boot.

How about a different form factor for the S1H II that leans into the video features rather than just copying the plain old DSLR style body shape that the camera industry has been defaulting too since about 1961?

How about starting a whole new niche, which then becomes really popular with mass appeal.

They definitely need to do something along those sort of lines as the “me too” stuff is not moving anyone’s needle.

The head start they had by being in mirrorless early has now disappeared.

[Caleb Genheimer]

I really got the impression at NAB that they are working on the successor to the S1H, and it’s even more video-specific than any of their current hybrids. I don’t know if that means a different shape, but Komodo, FX-line, and Pyxis probably have them thinking in that direction. They were grilling me on what an S1H successor should have. They’re working on it. I’d rather they go slow and really make a great camera.

 

Keep in mind, LUMIX is gaining the Varicam people as that division closes up/merges with LUMIX. At NAB, they said any products from that “merger” will be about two years out. 
 

I know it seems like they’re recycling the IMX410, but honestly? EVERYONE is kinda doing that. I don’t think it’s any kind of “sign” that LUMIX is ending. 

[newfoundmass]

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Panasonic need to find their unique appeal again, they are trying to be too much like the others.

Panasonic will not beat Sony at the same game.

How about a captivating XPan digital camera though, with a panoramic screen and sensor, and in the same sort of body design as a beautiful Hasselblad original XPan to boot.

How about a different form factor for the S1H II that leans into the video features rather than just copying the plain old DSLR style body shape that the camera industry has been defaulting too since about 1961?

How about starting a whole new niche, which then becomes really popular with mass appeal.

There's a lot they can do other than simply trying to out-spec and out-price Sony.

I agree with you that they can't beat Sony (or Canon) at their own game, but they do need to entice more users into the system and a big part of that is being aggressive with pricing and offering more entry level cameras and lenses. These aren't going to be cameras or lenses that appeal to us, but ones that appeal to those who would just be getting their foot into the door.

 

Lumix can't just rely on us, they need a bigger market share in general. Hoping that a niche product gains mass appeal is a risky business proposition, too.

1 hour ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I really got the impression at NAB that they are working on the successor to the S1H, and it’s even more video-specific than any of their current hybrids. I don’t know if that means a different shape, but Komodo, FX-line, and Pyxis probably have them thinking in that direction. They were grilling me on what an S1H successor should have. They’re working on it. I’d rather they go slow and really make a great camera.

 

Keep in mind, LUMIX is gaining the Varicam people as that division closes up/merges with LUMIX. At NAB, they said any products from that “merger” will be about two years out. 
 

I know it seems like they’re recycling the IMX410, but honestly? EVERYONE is kinda doing that. I don’t think it’s any kind of “sign” that LUMIX is ending. 

Yeah, I don't see a scenario where they give up on higher end full frame cameras because I'm not sure they could survive as a company that just releases mid-range cameras. I think they are in a tough situation where they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Would it be better to release an underwhelming S1H successor the way they did with the GH6? I learn towards "no."

 

I think sensor tech has slowed down in general. It felt like every single day specs for new sensors would get posted, with people speculating on whether it would be used in a forthcoming camera from this brand or that brand. I know people who think Sony's sensor tech was impacted significantly from the earthquakes that have hit the country over the last 8 or so years and the supply chain issues that happened during COVID. That would kinda make sense about why almost everyone is still using a 6 year old sensor.

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Honestly I'd consider dropping the S5 to near fire sale pricing as the entry level option into the L-mount/Lumix full frame family. I'd argue that it's still a great value at its current price, but there is just so much competition in that price range. The RP, R8, Z5, and A7C are all cheaper, and some of those even come with a kit lens for less. I'd definitely argue that the S5 is a superior camera to all of those, but Lumix is at an inherent disadvantage because Canon, Nikon and Sony have a much larger user base. So create a real incentive to try and entice people to dip their toe in.

 

For all of their flaws, and there are a lot of them, Canon has always been smart when it comes to getting casual users to buy their cameras.

100%

It can't be understated what a powerful factor having a massive user base is when it comes to choosing a camera. 

I'll happily take a 15% worse camera if it has 5x more users. 

Is why a Sony FX30 will probably be my next camera (if I even get another camera next year). 

As everyone and their dog has a Sony camera. You have to seriously beat Sony on price and/or features to make a person consider anything else. (although Canon gets an honorable mention when it comes to popularity, and Blackmagic does ok in their little indie niche) 

It's also why back when I first started with photography I went for a Nikon D50. Just didn't make sense to consider Pentax / Sony / Olympus / etc, as you can't just be better/cheap than Nikon/Canon. You need to be a lot better/cheaper. 

At the very least, Panasonic needs to be price competitive against the likes of the a7mk2 (which is still being sold brand new!) / Sony a7C / Canon EOS RP

It's too much to think Panasonic will ever undercut them in price, but at least be within a couple of hundred dollars of them!

 

9 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

The RP with a 24-105mm f/4-7.1 lens is $1,118. Is it a crappy lens? Absolutely, but for most people the first lens they use is the kit lens. I'd argue that Lumix's kit lenses are genuinely good lenses and are nicer than Canon and Sony, but they don't have anything comparable to the super cheap options from them.

Yup, it's not just camera bodies that need to be price competitive to grow the number of new photographers/videographers into the ecosystem, but the lenses too. 

Look at their prices for L Mount:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Camera-Lenses/ci/17912/N/4196380428?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH&filters=fct_a_focus-type_5738%3Aautofocus%2Cfct_lens-format-coverage_3332%3Afull-frame-lenses%2Cfct_lens-mount_3442%3Aleica-l-mount%2Cfct_lenses-kits_7315%3Alenses-only 

Cheapest is a $350 prime. Next cheapest from Panasonic is their new compact kit zoom at $500!

Compare that with Canon, who have four lenses which are cheaper than Panasonic's cheapest. 

Nikon has also four (well arguably "two") lenses cheaper than Panasonic's cheapest. And a zoom cheaper than Panasonic's cheapest zoom. 

(none of this is counting the various third party lenses either, of which there are for more for them than there are for L Mount)

Ideally I'd like Panasonic to do something such as a 50mm f2 lens for $160-ish, and a 28mm f2.8 pancake lens for sub $300

And a medium range zoom (24-90mm ish that is f4 ish) that's cheaper than any of their current zooms. 

That will fill in some big gaps in the entry level starting out lens kit, to make Panasonic competitive again. 

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Yup, it's not just camera bodies that need to be price competitive to grow the number of new photographers/videographers into the ecosystem, but the lenses too. 

Look at their prices for L Mount:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Camera-Lenses/ci/17912/N/4196380428?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH&filters=fct_a_focus-type_5738%3Aautofocus%2Cfct_lens-format-coverage_3332%3Afull-frame-lenses%2Cfct_lens-mount_3442%3Aleica-l-mount%2Cfct_lenses-kits_7315%3Alenses-only 

Cheapest is a $350 prime. Next cheapest from Panasonic is their new compact kit zoom at $500!

Compare that with Canon, who have four lenses which are cheaper than Panasonic's cheapest. 

Nikon has also four (well arguably "two") lenses cheaper than Panasonic's cheapest. And a zoom cheaper than Panasonic's cheapest zoom. 

(none of this is counting the various third party lenses either, of which there are for more for them than there are for L Mount)

Ideally I'd like Panasonic to do something such as a 50mm f2 lens for $160-ish, and a 28mm f2.8 pancake lens for sub $300

And a medium range zoom (24-90mm ish that is f4 ish) that's cheaper than any of their current zooms. 

That will fill in some big gaps in the entry level starting out lens kit, to make Panasonic competitive again. 

I agree, but one thing I think should be noted is just how good those Lumix lenses are for the price. They're built very well and are optically excellent. I can't say enough good things about them. 

But they do need budget options. Most entry level users are looking at the price first and foremost. Is that $350 Lumix prime nicer than the cheaper Canon or Sony equivalent? Yes, but those just getting started don't quite understand that, the first thing they notice is price. And when you can get an RP with a 24-105 kit lens for under $1200, that's a lot more enticing than an S5 with the 20-60 kit lens for $1700 even if the camera and lens are superior in every way. Mom and Dad don't know that when they're buying their son or daughter a camera for Christmas after finding out they're interested in photography. 

[Davide DB]

I don't want to hack the thread. Is there an advantage to making external zooms?
 

[MrSMW]

11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

As everyone and their dog has a Sony camera. You have to seriously beat Sony on price and/or features to make a person consider anything else.

Maybe, I dunno...

How many users there are for Sony or how popular/unpopular is also irrelevant to me. In fact, I tend to prefer stuff that the cool kidz are not using on TikTok which was partly why I was a big fan of Fuji 2011-2019, ie, they were a bit more of a niche underdog than they are today.

I buy stuff that is the best for my needs within my budget. End of.

S5ii for my kind of video work. I prefer the form factor and styling of the FX3/30 by FUCKING MILES, but ultimately, can they do 6k open gate with class leading IBIS? Nope.

I love my A7RV for stills. I think it would be great for hybrid but I have not shot a single clip of video on it ever. Or even looked a the video settings.

For me it's simply my stills workhorse and benchmark for every other camera out there.

I keep coming back to this hypothetical question of what would I use instead and the short answer is always, well actually nothing. Too big, too expensive, doesn't have the lenses...nothing comes close as a system.

And that is the thing with Sony and maybe it is because of it's popularity with the masses, - it is such a massive system.

For me now, it all hinges on a single body or a single lens, what I do next, if anything. And who gets there first. Or at all.

If Sigma bring out a longer focal length sibling to their recent 28-45mm f1.8, such as a 50-100 or thereabouts f1.8, it's game over LUMIX for me, as in I WILL buy that pair of lenses for my A7RV and possibly trade all my L Mount gear for Sony as there are certain pros that outweigh the 6k OG and better IBIS.

If LUMIX do bring out an S2R that is basically a half price version of the Leica SL-3, it's goodbye Sony because that WILL be the camera to beat my A7RV and the Sigma 28-105mm f2.8 would complete the L Mount system for me.

But then if LUMIX make the S2R AND Sigma make the 50-100 f1.8, double bonus!!

The one thing I know is this though and that is what I have is already good enough. I have spent years trying to find a combo of tools to suit my needs and this year has been the first time I have achieved that with zero complaints or even niggles. It. Just. Works.

Could it be improved upon? Sure. Smaller & lighter but that's about it.

If 'they' can come out with something more interesting than the typical DSLR box, even better!

'They' have 5-6 months max collectively or other than 1 lens swap, next year I'm re-running this years set up.

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I agree, but one thing I think should be noted is just how good those Lumix lenses are for the price. They're built very well and are optically excellent. I can't say enough good things about them. 

But they do need budget options. Most entry level users are looking at the price first and foremost.

Exactly. 

Most first time buyers are not pixel peeping reviews of lenses, they don't care, or even for those who do care they night not even fully grasp understanding the reviews to figure out just how much better one lens is vs another. Or they might just flat out not have the money for it yet, even though they do want those better lenses. 

The 50mm f2 lens for $159 with the image quality of a nifty fifty from the 1980's is always going to out sell the $399 50mm f1.8 

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Maybe, I dunno...

How many users there are for Sony or how popular/unpopular is also irrelevant to me.

I am saying "generally speaking", and it's not true for all users. Of course lots of exceptions exist who buck the trends, such as yourself. You're very happy to experiment outside the mainstream. 

Plus you work solo? Never with other shooters? (either under you, or you working for someone else) And you never / rarely rent in extra equipment such as extra lenses or cameras?

The dynamics of investing in gear changes so much once you consider those factors. 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

In my view was a mistake to drop APS-C L Mount.

If they make a APC-S GM5, with the Sony 26mp sensor, IBIS, a decent EVF, with PDAF and their LUT system, I would switch form Fuji ASAP. With a Sigma 18-50 would be a winner.

Don´t want to develop APS-C lenses? Bring Viltrox to the party. Their 75mm f/1.2 is the sharpest lens that I've ever had. Their cheap primes are good and affordable. TT Artisan is doing interesting stuff too.

[newfoundmass]

3 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

In my view was a mistake to drop APS-C L Mount.

If they make a APC-S GM5, with the Sony 26mp sensor, IBIS, a decent EVF, with PDAF and their LUT system, I would switch form Fuji ASAP. With a Sigma 18-50 would be a winner.

Don´t want to develop APS-C lenses? Bring Viltrox to the party. Their 75mm f/1.2 is the sharpest lens that I've ever had. Their cheap primes are good and affordable. TT Artisan is doing interesting stuff too.

It'd be the death nail for M43 so it wouldn't make sense in that regard.

It's kind of a bummer that they didn't make the M43 lens mount larger when introducing it. I imagine they never thought they'd go full frame, but it'd have been really nice.

[newfoundmass]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The 50mm f2 lens for $159 with the image quality of a nifty fifty from the 1980's is always going to out sell the $399 50mm f1.8 

Ideally it'd have better image quality than that, haha. But if they need to sacrifice build quality and some optical quality to hit a certain price point then there aren't a ton of reasons not to. 

Yes, people should save money in the long run and jump straight to the nicer lenses since they're one and done purchases, but that's just not the way it works most of the time. 

[KnightsFan]

6 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Ideally it'd have better image quality than that, haha. But if they need to sacrifice build quality and some optical quality to hit a certain price point then there aren't a ton of reasons not to. 

Last week I tested my nikon ai 50mm from the 70s against a modern Irix 45mm, which is not a particularly cheap lens. At f1.4, the irix is clearly sharper and optically better in every way. But by f4 the only difference is that the irix is warmer, no appreciable difference in sharpness, CA, distortion, etc.

A decently made nifty fifty from the 80s can be pretty damn good, if it doesn't need to be super fast!

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Plus you work solo? Never with other shooters? (either under you, or you working for someone else) And you never / rarely rent in extra equipment such as extra lenses or cameras?

Nope, never. Just me myself and I 😱

Renting kit in France is not as easy as it is in say the UK or US.

Bigger cities have some rental places, but I am nowhere near any of them (closest is Paris at 3 hours) and the courier system isn’t great… 

The only playtime I get is if I can get into an actual bricks & mortar shop which again means big city which for me as a country boy, is about 1-2 times a year max.

So I need to really nail down my needs, do my research as best I can, buy & try.

And even then, sometimes you know straight away with a bit of kit and with other stuff, it takes time and more prolonged usage.

But as above, all of my needs are now covered and all of the major brands could now tick all my boxes so it’s mostly a case of want plus cost now that determines any future kit.

Arguably, I do not need anything beyond the S5ii from LUMIX and I don’t, but I would like certain things and if those things come in the future, I will consider them.

Just give me an S1H and an S1R in an S5ii body and holy crap, that would be a dream set up!