Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I know a lot about exotic large-sensor cameras and s35 lenses for cinematic production, but I am completely ignorant of the camcorder side of the industry, the video-side so to speak. I've never shot anything where I don t have the ability to say ''let's take it one more time'', I've come to a job where I need this so help, there just seems to be an endless number of models when it comes to camcorders, much more than the large-sensor world, MUCH! I don't even know where to start. I need the following: Record a occurrence in time. That's it. I don't want it to be artistic, beautiful, shallow dof, long lens, slowmotion, whistles, just a camera that I can press record and point and will give viewers a high quality presence of what's happening, say it's for police work, record a raid, a bust, an operation, just as purely as an example. I need the following: -Unlimited recording time, and I mean UN-limited, I need it to go whatever long it will take it to get the coverage, one minute or 12 hours, not interrupt and stop on me at ANY given moment. I guess this would be achieved by a camera with dual card slots (say two 128gbs with sequential recording) coupled with a low bitrate/codec, just something that looks good enough. -A wide angle lens, where everything is in focus at all time, don't want to deal with that at any given moment, perhaps adjust it once before rolling and that's it. A 35mm FF equivalent would be ideal (not too distorted nor tight, normal wide, feels you're there), again with everything in focus at all time without a possible risk of AF failure so no that. I guess this will neccessitate a small sensor camera with a narrow lens, -Absolutely need it to adjust exposure by it self, good Auto exposure, just gets the shotsm and Auto WB. I trust both these Autos because I've seen phones get them right, these are a must, -Need it to record high quality ambient sound, not a unidirectional interview/narrative type just the space, so using my ambient XLR mics would be great but a 3.5mm input if the quality of sound is decent is good too. -Smallest size possible, not intruding and not go-pro, a small handheld camera, preferably. Something I can hold firmly yet not weight me down if long times are required, without drawing TOO much attention as a BROADCAST TV HERE. DSLR size or little larger is perfect. -A big one, un-ending magical battery life. I can't have it die on me in the middle of a shoot, yet can carry a V-lock on a rig, so internal battery that lasts longest as possible, C100/300-like (4-5 hours on one)-Having a 4K resolution would be highly beneficial as I'll be shooting at a fixed covering wide angle so ability to punch in on moments in post would be an added bonus, but sharp 1080p is also very acceptable for re-framing (the end delivery is probably broadcast SD & 720p maximum)-Here the thing, I know this might not exist, but can the image look good?! Can I have a detailed zero-sharpened image, no artefacts of aliasing or moire or halos or any kind of sharpening video look (rolling shutter acceptable and codec imperfections acceptable). Can it have a wide range, a flat image where it doesn't clip everything to yellow and black and over saturate everything to ridiculous levels? I mean a filmic image, a Log mode with good pleasing colours, high resolution, zero sharpening, adequate DR, flat contrast, non-clipped colour channels, nice skin, a nice non video camcorder look. Is that possible at all? Would be really lovely. Haven't seen it all small chip camcorder tests just look flat out bad. Things NOT needed: high end codecs, 10bit, 4:2:2, shallow dof, ''pretty'' ''cinematic'' aesthetic, long reach, too wide end, IS is unneeded for a 35mm, global shutter, SDI, manual controls or good button layout, pocket size or shoulder mounted size, slowmotion, I think you get the picture. In short, I need something I can point, press record, and just have no interruptions whatsoever as it would have catastrophic consequences on many points. What are the workhorses for such types of shooting? I thought C100, needs focusing, needs exposing, otherwise perfect and nicest image but it's out for these two drawbacks.I thought X70, looks perfect, but again sensor is not small so probably needs focusing and adjusting. Honestly I thought a low-end superzoom from Canon/Nikon that shoots HD video, small chip, wide, everything in focus, 3.5mm good enough audio, BUT crappy battery life and no long recording so out, What should I be looking at here, Sony super expensive PMW/PXW/PWM/PSX and all these hundreds of numbers I am seeing all over the web? Can't even try to to think where to start looking and what kind of budget I'll ask for. I wont be paying or owning so cost is no big issue, it'll be used for years and years to come at that given institution after I finish the job, Any help from documentarians would be very, very appreciated, now, as fast as possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 http://geizhals.eu/?cat=dvcam&sort=p&xf=209_3840x2160~1278_36~192_1500#xf_topFrom 3840x2160, max 36mm, up to 1.5kg. In that case, those are your options I guess. The AX100 has the biggest sensor and I remember when they first released footage, I was rather impressed (although it felt a bit videoey and oversharpened): The JVC GY-HM170E would have that dual card slot you were talking about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 You want a professional or prosumer camera? I used to shoot a ton with Canon's XH cams, and that line has evolved into Canon XF300. Although, the 300 is not 4k and the build of the camera does look a little high end. Still, I was always able to make my XH-A1 look pretty good on documentary shoots. I have stuff from years ago that easily rivals stuff I've done recently.Maybe Panasonic's HC-WX970 would be a good stealth cam? It looks very unassuming, as does the Sony AX-100. Not sure how you'd stretch things to a full day of recording, especially with 100Mps 4k shooting. Still, swapping a card would only break shooting for about 5-10 seconds...assuming you have a camera operator doing that.You could rig a external battery without too much trouble to run all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I know a lot about exotic large-sensor cameras and s35 lenses for cinematic production, but I am completely ignorant of the camcorder side of the industry, the video-side so to speak. I've never shot anything where I don t have the ability to say ''let's take it one more time'', I've come to a job where I need this so help, there just seems to be an endless number of models when it comes to camcorders, much more than the large-sensor world, MUCH! I don't even know where to start. I need the following: Record a occurrence in time. That's it. I don't want it to be artistic, beautiful, shallow dof, long lens, slowmotion, whistles, just a camera that I can press record and point and will give viewers a high quality presence of what's happening, say it's for police work, record a raid, a bust, an operation, just as purely as an example. I need the following: -Unlimited recording time, and I mean UN-limited, I need it to go whatever long it will take it to get the coverage, one minute or 12 hours, not interrupt and stop on me at ANY given moment. I guess this would be achieved by a camera with dual card slots (say two 128gbs with sequential recording) coupled with a low bitrate/codec, just something that looks good enough. -A wide angle lens, where everything is in focus at all time, don't want to deal with that at any given moment, perhaps adjust it once before rolling and that's it. A 35mm FF equivalent would be ideal (not too distorted nor tight, normal wide, feels you're there), again with everything in focus at all time without a possible risk of AF failure so no that. I guess this will neccessitate a small sensor camera with a narrow lens, -Absolutely need it to adjust exposure by it self, good Auto exposure, just gets the shotsm and Auto WB. I trust both these Autos because I've seen phones get them right, these are a must, -Need it to record high quality ambient sound, not a unidirectional interview/narrative type just the space, so using my ambient XLR mics would be great but a 3.5mm input if the quality of sound is decent is good too. -Smallest size possible, not intruding and not go-pro, a small handheld camera, preferably. Something I can hold firmly yet not weight me down if long times are required, without drawing TOO much attention as a BROADCAST TV HERE. DSLR size or little larger is perfect. -A big one, un-ending magical battery life. I can't have it die on me in the middle of a shoot, yet can carry a V-lock on a rig, so internal battery that lasts longest as possible, C100/300-like (4-5 hours on one)-Having a 4K resolution would be highly beneficial as I'll be shooting at a fixed covering wide angle so ability to punch in on moments in post would be an added bonus, but sharp 1080p is also very acceptable for re-framing (the end delivery is probably broadcast SD & 720p maximum)-Here the thing, I know this might not exist, but can the image look good?! Can I have a detailed zero-sharpened image, no artefacts of aliasing or moire or halos or any kind of sharpening video look (rolling shutter acceptable and codec imperfections acceptable). Can it have a wide range, a flat image where it doesn't clip everything to yellow and black and over saturate everything to ridiculous levels? I mean a filmic image, a Log mode with good pleasing colours, high resolution, zero sharpening, adequate DR, flat contrast, non-clipped colour channels, nice skin, a nice non video camcorder look. Is that possible at all? Would be really lovely. Haven't seen it all small chip camcorder tests just look flat out bad. Things NOT needed: high end codecs, 10bit, 4:2:2, shallow dof, ''pretty'' ''cinematic'' aesthetic, long reach, too wide end, IS is unneeded for a 35mm, global shutter, SDI, manual controls or good button layout, pocket size or shoulder mounted size, slowmotion, I think you get the picture. In short, I need something I can point, press record, and just have no interruptions whatsoever as it would have catastrophic consequences on many points. What are the workhorses for such types of shooting? I thought C100, needs focusing, needs exposing, otherwise perfect and nicest image but it's out for these two drawbacks.I thought X70, looks perfect, but again sensor is not small so probably needs focusing and adjusting. Honestly I thought a low-end superzoom from Canon/Nikon that shoots HD video, small chip, wide, everything in focus, 3.5mm good enough audio, BUT crappy battery life and no long recording so out, What should I be looking at here, Sony super expensive PMW/PXW/PWM/PSX and all these hundreds of numbers I am seeing all over the web? Can't even try to to think where to start looking and what kind of budget I'll ask for. I wont be paying or owning so cost is no big issue, it'll be used for years and years to come at that given institution after I finish the job, Any help from documentarians would be very, very appreciated, now, as fast as possible I doubt any camera would be able to record for more than 4-5 due to battery and memory restrictions. Try the XF100. With different batteries and huge cards u may be able to pull off about 4+ hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 This might sound silly but why not this:https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4kIt can stream to a pc so recording time is only limited by storage space. You can add whatever lenses you need, and it can be powered by ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Probably the same reason it's not going to be the 'C100, needs focusing, needs exposing, otherwise perfect and nicest image but it's out for these two drawbacks'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikkor Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 A webcam... IronFilm and Geoff CB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Suggestions so far: AX100: It's a large sensor so will need focus pulling while shooting. XF-100/205/305: Great call! Forgot these BM Micro to a PC: Interesting but again large sensor needs focus pulling and plus it would need a whole punch of accessories rig, power brick, PC, rails, not really a choiceA webcam: Well... why not Great suggestions, keep them coming guys please. Very helpful. I am looking into the Canon XF series now, especially their new XF-205 which seems to be everything I am asking for and more. Small ergonomic package, Small sensor, perfect 1080p, wide angle, all in focus, Auto exposure, dual slots, LARGE internal battery, XLRs and great audio, everything plus the image is actually pretty damn filmic and gives the option to dial sharpness all the way off, get a very flat contrast, and DR is surprisngly high at around 12 stops (more than XF305 by a good margin based on reviews), only thing, just not 4K which would have sealed the deal plus not cheap. Anything similar but 4K for post punching-in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 The XF205 has an AUTO switch which takes control of everything smoothly, IS, IRIS, Shutter, ISO, Audio levels, NDs, AF, and just records the scene it's pointed at, exactly what I need for this specific job, but plus 20 buttons shall the next users want to use it for film/video production manually. It has 2 CF slots and an SD slot. It records at the following formats: 50mbps 4:2:2 MXF (Broadcast standard) 35mbps 4:2:0 MP4 (Which is what I'd probably want to use) Could someone calculate for me how long can I fit onto say two 64GB CF cards recording at the ''one card then to the other after first is full'' mode? Calculating Both codecs would be very appreciated, Battery life is 4-5 hours, C300 standard and can be swapped very fast and small. It's 3999$. Hurts my feelings to pay more than a sexy C100 or a7r II but what are you gonna do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Wouldn't the AF100 with an UWA lens have "everything in focus" for all practical purposes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted June 18, 2015 Super Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 The XF205 has an AUTO switch which takes control of everything smoothly, IS, IRIS, Shutter, ISO, Audio levels, NDs, AF, and just records the scene it's pointed at, exactly what I need for this specific job, but plus 20 buttons shall the next users want to use it for film/video production manually. It has 2 CF slots and an SD slot. It records at the following formats: 50mbps 4:2:2 MXF (Broadcast standard) 35mbps 4:2:0 MP4 (Which is what I'd probably want to use) Could someone calculate for me how long can I fit onto say two 64GB CF cards recording at the ''one card then to the other after first is full'' mode? Calculating Both codecs would be very appreciated, Battery life is 4-5 hours, C300 standard and can be swapped very fast and small. It's 3999$. Hurts my feelings to pay more than a sexy C100 or a7r II but what are you gonna do The XF100 has 50mbit, 422, Dual Card Slots, XLRs and cost a third of that used.´Not as many buttons but more money left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdonovic Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I thought X70, looks perfect, but again sensor is not small so probably needs focusing and adjusting. x70 would work well. We have them at work, Low light is good, just throw them in auto. Battery lasts for ~4-5 hours if you use the extended battery. Just use 64 or 128gb cards and you will get many hours record time.No 4k yet.We also use sony EX-1s and they would also be perfect. I think on the big batteries we get ~5 hours, and if you can afford the cards, you can probably record continuously for that long. Not a small camera though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 The XF100 has 50mbit, 422, Dual Card Slots, XLRs and cost a third of that used.´Not as many buttons but more money left.From what I can see, the XF100 is 2499$ and the XF200 is 3899$ so not a big difference and it lacks many of the new 205 improvements most importantly the brand new much higher performing sensor, it has much better ISO performance and bigger DR and too many ergonomic improvements. Canon are saying the XF205 is actually a killer for the 305 as it takes all the best from the 105 and the 305 and puts them on one package with improved sensor and ergonomics. I think it's worth it for a long term investment for a police organization. They'll probably use it long after I leave for years and not update frequently so I want to get them the most long-term solution as possible. X70: The big sensor is my problem, it needs focus pulling throughout the entire shooting experience, plus I don't like the image the XF205 sensor looks so much better in colours, DR, no sharpening artefacts, roll off, My best candidate for now is the XF205. Anything competition I should look at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted June 18, 2015 Super Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 From what I can see, the XF100 is 2499$ and the XF200 is 3899$ so not a big difference and it lacks many of the new 205 improvements most importantly the brand new much higher performing sensor, it has much better ISO performance and bigger DR and too many ergonomic improvements. Canon are saying the XF205 is actually a killer for the 305 as it takes all the best from the 105 and the 305 and puts them on one package with improved sensor and ergonomics. I think it's worth it for a long term investment for a police organization. They'll probably use it long after I leave for years and not update frequently so I want to get them the most long-term solution as possible. X70: The big sensor is my problem, it needs focus pulling throughout the entire shooting experience, plus I don't like the image the XF205 sensor looks so much better in colours, DR, no sharpening artefacts, roll off, My best candidate for now is the XF205. Anything competition I should look at? Like I said, used. There is one on a Swedish forum right now with pelicase, extra batteries, wide angle adapter in good condition for $1300 but he will of course let it go for $1100 or less. Should be much cheaper in other countries. It was just a suggestion for saving money, if its the 205 you want, go for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronChicago Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Just curious, is the job long term? If not I would just rent a camera for temporary use.EDIT: Sorry I see where you said it will stay at the institution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Wow 1100$ for the XF100, that's a great deal. If I could find one here I'd definitely get that and suggest they have a 2-3 camera setup for when the situation demands. But I wouldn't be able to but it for that price at all unfortunately. Doesn't Sony make any competitior to the XF205? A small chip camcorder? I hear they have lots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted June 19, 2015 Super Members Share Posted June 19, 2015 Wow 1100$ for the XF100, that's a great deal. If I could find one here I'd definitely get that and suggest they have a 2-3 camera setup for when the situation demands. But I wouldn't be able to but it for that price at all unfortunately. Doesn't Sony make any competitior to the XF205? A small chip camcorder? I hear they have lotsNow there are two, the other is listed as $1150 or something like that. Probably go for less. Not much demand around these parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRenaissanceMan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Now there are two, the other is listed as $1150 or something like that. Probably go for less. Not much demand around these parts.Just curious, but do the guys on these Swedish forums sell to Americans? I'm starting to get a bit jealous of these deals you're finding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted June 19, 2015 Super Members Share Posted June 19, 2015 Just curious, but do the guys on these Swedish forums sell to Americans? I'm starting to get a bit jealous of these deals you're finding. They probably do if you convince them that posting to the US is just as easy as posting to someone in Sweden.I see it often both on Swedishforums as well as Americans ("us only")But when people finally take the step, march down to the post office they quicklyrealize that they have been limiting their market all these years. Lenses is the best example, I've sold lenses for +$50 on eBay that I've paid $5 for in Sweden. And one of my favorites is buying batch of old Sega games for $200 just to get $1000 on eBay. My current gear of a Blackmagic Pocket, Digital Bolex, Alphatron EVF and all the lenses all come from classifieds and ebay. Even if the D16 was to break down today I still could buy a new for the money I've saved.Sometimes I play with the thought of starting a full time business of buying and selling old stuff So to sum up, don't buy new, stick to used and always lowball like there is no tomorrow. Sorry for the Off Topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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