Interesting insights into the new Sony A7R II and RX sensor technology

[DBounce]

​Then why the hell are you using full frame lenses on a 2.3x crop? 

​Are you kidding? We have far, for more choice right now than we've ever had. It used to be the GH2 or shit. Nothing in-between. Now there's compelling options from Sony, Nikon, Blackmagic, Panasonic, the Digital Bolex people--hell, even Samsung and Olympus! You have every imaginable sensor size to choose from. Why force Panasonic to step in line with the rest?

Why not? S35 is the most widely used format for pro film/video.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Why not? S35 is the most widely used format for pro film/video.

​Because as Jimbo laid out, the smaller sensor size has a lot of benefits, not to mention the huge lineup of excellent m4/3 lenses they'd be throwing away by abandoning the format. 

If choice is good, why enforce a "standard" on manufacturers? If I like the 2x crop, and the lenses it allows me to use, how is it in my best interest for Panasonic to leave me out in the cold? Plenty of manufacturers make s35 cameras. If you want one, buy one.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

​Downsizing will help get it close to the A7S actually.

I expect it to match it until ISO 6400.

42MP from BSI copper sensor downscaled to 12MP in Photoshop is going to make for great ISO 3200 results vs the A7S on older sensor technology at native 12MP.

The new sensor has been engineered to beat the D810's sensor. That has the older Sony chip.

​It won't help at the pixel level. Equal output sizes, yes. But--in my experience--that won't help as much with the color and dynamic range penalties of high ISOs with smaller pixels. YMMV

Also, the D810 is not the same sensor as the D800(e) and A7R but rather a new/updated model. Ming Thein goes into this in his first impressions and long-term review of the camera. 

[psolberg]

 

basically sony allowed engineers to determine the MP specification, canon let the marketing team decide on it. go it.. no wonder the sony sensor runs circles around canon's.

But question, what does it take to make good 4K video using the full frame area? What does sony need to work out the resolution to? 8K oversample down to 4K? It may be beyond what they can do today but I'm thinking sony will beat canon to this. no doubt.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

 

basically sony allowed engineers to determine the MP specification, canon let the marketing team decide on it. go it.. no wonder the sony sensor runs circles around canon's.

​No one knows how the Sony performs until the camera goes out, so let's not disseminate information we don't have.

[agachart]

Why not? S35 is the most widely used format for pro film/video.

​Can not make s35 on m4/3 format ,i think you know.

if panny make s35 camera where is lens? that is main problem.

i only want they (panny) bring back Multi-Aspect sensor to new GH that will much good.

1.86 crop on exist M4/3,4/3 or manual focus it good enough for Indy cinema.

[Mattias Burling]

m4/3 on s35 is a genius idea. Its been requested by Blackmagic users for years and now when JVC has released it I think a lot of people see the potential.
Having s35, m4/3, s16 all in one camera.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

m4/3 on s35 is a genius idea. Its been requested by Blackmagic users for years and now when JVC has released it I think a lot of people see the potential.
Having s35, m4/3, s16 all in one camera.

​I'd love a m4/3 mount on every s35 and smaller camera. It's by far the most flexible lens mount out there.

[JurijTurnsek]

Since 42mpx means gives you a 8K 16:9 mode, I wonder if Sony will let this sensor design improve and trickle down to the a7s series of the future (not immediate future) when the processing power will catch up with 8K requirements or even before that to do full sensor read-out with downsampling to 4K and 8K external. I wonder what resolution Sony would then put into their a7r series.

[richg101]

​I'd love a m4/3 mount on every s35 and smaller camera. It's by far the most flexible lens mount out there.

​not as flexible as the sony e-mount.  e-mount can be adapted to m4/3, but m4/3 can't be adapted to e-mount.  

[Mattias Burling]

But Sony will never let anybody use it.

[maxmizer]

​Not gonna happen because the m43 lenses can't conver a sensor that big.

​they can do very well for crop for old lenses, just think that there are no lens film m4 / 3 except Veydra Mini Primes, who like me has 35mm Kit will continue to be bad ...

[Andrew Reid]

Since 42mpx means gives you a 8K 16:9 mode, I wonder if Sony will let this sensor design improve and trickle down to the a7s series of the future (not immediate future) when the processing power will catch up with 8K requirements or even before that to do full sensor read-out with downsampling to 4K and 8K external. I wonder what resolution Sony would then put into their a7r series.

​8K is a while off and here's why...

Hard to edit and store. Needs better compression and for H.265 to gain widespread support with editing software (Adobe, cough cough)

No consumer 8K TVs on the market yet and people only just starting to get with the 4K programme. In terms of content it is only just reaching 1080p, there's hardly anything in 4K yet (on Netflix for example) and 8K... well... nadda.

Then there is the processing power required to record it in the first place. Look at how big the cooling mechanism is on the Dragon for 6.5K raw. Now on top of that add the bump to 8K and compression processing. Storage to record 8K raw would not be in consumer price range.

The battery would die and the camera would overheat even if the sensor could do 8K at 24p, which currently it can't.

I think 8K is 10 years off at best and its benefits very questionable anyway (for the home & consumer market).

[Andrew Reid]

​Can not make s35 on m4/3 format ,i think you know.

JVC did. They have a Micro Four Thirds mount camera with Super 35mm sensor in it.

if panny make s35 camera where is lens? that is main problem.

Cooke, Panavision, etc. and they already have made a S35 camera, it's called the Varicam S35!

In the consumer market there's a ton of lenses... all the APS-C and full frame stuff in the world for example.

If Panasonic want to sell lenses like that there's nothing to stop them building some or outsourcing the work to Sigma. It has to make economic sense though.

i only want they (panny) bring back Multi-Aspect sensor to new GH that will much good.

1.86 crop on exist M4/3,4/3 or manual focus it good enough for Indy cinema.

​We don't need that now we have the Speed Booster XL for 1.5x crop in 4K and 1.28x for stills. Far better.

The key thing for me is how Panasonic are going to compete with Sony.

How would an updated GH5 with 2x crop sensor be better than the A7R II for either 4K or stills exactly?

They HAVE to up their game on the sensor side.

[Vesku]

These new "super fast" Sony sensors cant do 4k 60P. GH5 will do it and take the lead again.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

How would an updated GH5 with 2x crop sensor be better than the A7R II for either 4K or stills exactly?

​-No overheating
-No record limit
-A larger library of smaller, lighter lenses
-Longer battery life
-10-bit recording
-Faster AF
-Faster burst rate
-Larger buffer
-Fully articulating screen

I may be missing something. Still, that's a compelling enough list for some to stay with Panasonic. I'd stick with them for the next product iteration if the GH5 has internal 10-bit and V-Log L.

[DBounce]

​8K is a while off and here's why...

Hard to edit and store. Needs better compression and for H.265 to gain widespread support with editing software (Adobe, cough cough)

No consumer 8K TVs on the market yet and people only just starting to get with the 4K programme. In terms of content it is only just reaching 1080p, there's hardly anything in 4K yet (on Netflix for example) and 8K... well... nadda.

Then there is the processing power required to record it in the first place. Look at how big the cooling mechanism is on the Dragon for 6.5K raw. Now on top of that add the bump to 8K and compression processing. Storage to record 8K raw would not be in consumer price range.

The battery would die and the camera would overheat even if the sensor could do 8K at 24p, which currently it can't.

I think 8K is 10 years off at best and its benefits very questionable anyway (for the home & consumer market).

8k it's going to happen sooner than you think. Oculus stated 16k is ideal for VR. So 8k is a given. New chips will support it natively. It's in the cards.

[DBounce]

​-No overheating-No record limit
-A larger library of smaller, lighter lenses
-Longer battery life
-10-bit recording
-Faster AF
-Faster burst rate
-Larger buffer
-Fully articulating screen

I may be missing something. Still, that's a compelling enough list for some to stay with Panasonic. I'd stick with them for the next product iteration if the GH5 has internal 10-bit and V-Log L.

My money is on Samsung. I've got a feeling they're in it to win it.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

My money is on Samsung. I've got a feeling they're in it to win it.

​Like I said, all I need is 10-bit and Samsung will have basically my perfect camera. I rather like their lenses, too. They're good, small, and cheap--a killer combination. 

[smuncy]

If the A7rii uses the 1.5 crop mode to record 4K video, then compared to the Samsung NX1, which uses all of the APS-c sensor, then:

Then a lens, used on both, of a given focal length (adapted or native) would yield the

1. same angle of view
2. same DOF
3. Both would use roughly the same number of pixels which are then down sampled to the 4K file.

The 42MP is not used in video, only stills? Is this correct? Or have I missed the boat entirely? Thanks