Canon R5 Mark II - Firmware Problems

[Django]

Yeah RF lenses definitely feel plasticky and cheap. I think its mostly because Canon was trying to adjust the weight for small mirrorless bodies but I agree it doesn't feel like quality, especially for the expensive price you pay for L series. However optically they are far superior to EF. I've A/B'd them on shoots and its almost night & day, especially on 45MP sensors. That said, EF lenses are so widely available and affordable on the second hand market and some do have a certain mojo. Very good point about the vND adapter, I kinda forgot about that. 

Body wise, yeah they feel kinda cheap and plasticky as well. I shot on a 5D4 recently and was shocked how sturdy it felt (I had forgotten after so many years on mirrorless). The R3 though feels great. Z9 is still the benchmark for me. Sony is the worst, feels so consumerish. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

One thing in favor of the plastic RF lenses - the consumer primes are pretty cheap and they're really light.  You can put together a pretty decent S35 kit (I use mine with the K-X if I go hiking) for not a lot of money.  The 16, 35, and 50 cover the most-used focal ranges.

Also, the RF 70-200/4 is really small for a 70-200.  Like, it's shockingly small.

Would any of them be the first lenses that I'd choose to bring on set?  Hellll no.  Would I bring them out for informal stuff or travel?  Absolutely.

[gt3rs]

DR improvements seem real. Battery life is quite good (or amazing compared to the R5c), overheating ok.

[independent]

13.6 stops? What?

[herein2020]

7 hours ago, gt3rs said:

DR improvements seem real. Battery life is quite good (or amazing compared to the R5c), overheating ok.

Battery life makes sense, new battery and it doesn't have to run a cooling fan. I am curious how long it will record in 4K30 line skipped with no battery grip.

I don't shoot much longform work so as long as 4K30FPS line skipped doesn't overheat without the cooling grip then it will work as a b cam for the C70. The only problem is, when I do shoot long form its for 2hr+ dance recitals or other live events and it absolutely must not fail. 

For the first few times I will probably bring along the R7 just in case. The R7 never overheated in line skipped mode, it would overheat around 50 min in 4K fine mode, I had hoped the R5II would at least not overheat at all in that mode.

4 hours ago, independent said:

13.6 stops? What?

 Surprised good or bad? It had to be somewhere close to 14 stops for Canon to include CLOG2. I think the R5 topped out around 11 or 12 stops.

[independent]

Canon c-series cameras all have clog 2 and none of them have over 13 stops in any codec, including the DGO c300iii/c70. 
 

Arri Alexa mini LF measured at 13.5 stops…

[eatstoomuchjam]

It might be time to start specifying the SNR when talking about how many stops.

The C70 definitely has more than 13 total stops.  It has about 17 perceivable stops on a Xyla 21, but by SNR=2, it's only about 12.5 stops.  One would assume that's where you are when saying Alexa Mini LF is 13.5 stops since that matches CineD's lab results (which is also where the C70 numbers are from).

Basically every camera vendor except Arri lists the total perceivable number to describe their DR, not SNR=2.  Plus as Gerald's video demonstrates, DR at a given SNR can also be a function of oversampling, noise reduction, and capture vs timeline resolution.

[gt3rs]

From what I could see so far (1 week of usage)

 

R5 II vs R5 advantages:

8k 60

SRAW

2k 240

Audio in 120fps and 240fps

Better rolling shutter

Better DR, CLog2

Better AF (I need to test more)

Better overheating resistance

6h recording limit 

Better IBIS (I need to do some more tests)

Waveform

4 channel audio

USB-C iOS support allows you to use an iPhone as monitor with the App with almost no latency. Does not work in video playback. App UI is a bit crap and does not take full advantage of the iPhone screen size

Full HDMI

disadvantages:

Price, especially vs used R5

Needs new battery

 

 

R5 II vs R5c advantages:

8k 60 RAW with internal battery

SRAW

2k 240

Better DR, CLog2

Audio on the same file for 120fps

More than double battery life, no need of external battery or battery grip.

IBIS (still need to check more for the wobble).

Better and much more customizable AF, all features available in all res and frame rate.

WiFi

USB-C iOS support allows you to use an iPhone as monitor with the App with almost no latency. Does not work in video playback. App UI is a bit crap and does not take full advantage of the iPhone screen size

Quicker way to delete video files

When playing back it has the view assistant LUT applied, why why and one more why the R5c cannot do this. Is so bad to show clients dull videos....

C1-C3 memory, super easy to switch between 8k 50 RAW to 4k 120 10 bit. You can also switch from PAL to NTSC with the C memory. On the R5c is a pita changing from 8k 50 RAW to 4k 120 10 bit, many menus and for PAL to NTSC is a reboot.

Switching video to photo and back is instantaneous, although it really never bothered me the R5c

Full HDMI

A bit smaller body

disadvantages:

Price

No crop RAW

No 4k 60 oversampled

Less customization, cannot really decide what you want on the screen, hdmi, evf

Less proxy choices, for 8k RAW just one as is 2k.

Overheats vs no overheats

Waveform is a single size and there is no way to assign a button to show it or not. R5c has two sizes plus button assignable. Seems a last-minute addition this waveform.

Peaking is available only in MF. I like a lot to have Peeking on also in AF so I can easily see if the subject is really in focus, or the AF did not pick it up.

False colors works only with view assist (709 LUT) disabled.

I like the cinema menus better, they seem more logically organized. The R5 II res/format/framerate is confusing, maybe I just need to get used to it.

 

 

Still missing from all of them the possibility of zooming in while video playback.... why is such a thing so difficult to implement?!? Also why I cannot stop on a frame and have a clean screen so I can check the framing...

[Andrew Reid]

23 hours ago, herein2020 said:

The first clue that quality has decreased is when you hold any current R body; not even close to the quality of the DSLRs or even my Panasonic S5; so much plastic. The RF 70-200 F2.8 is nice in the way it is compact compared to the EF version, but feels so much more cheaply made due to all of the plastic.

I have to admit that RF 70-200 F2.8 lens is sharper than the EF version that I used to use, but for video sharper isn't necessarily better. So basically, you are paying exorbitant prices for lower quality lenses and losing the ability to use the vND adapter....no thanks, my current collection of EF glass is all I need.

The 2k, 3k, 4k canon stuff is still cost cut but not as bad as the construction of the entry and mid-range stuff. Local store here in Berlin had a tiny, light 18-45mm kit zoom gently fall off a table onto soft flooring and it was irredeemably fucked forever.

The stuff I have taken apart such as an R10 was so delicate inside that I have no idea how they even service the things.

Just the act of partial disassembly is enough to make it dissolve.

It is like the materials are brittle and made of a very low grade plastic, and the ribbon cables seem to be made of paper.

The internal layout is also very busy and you can tell that it is not really meant to be serviced at all by hand.

They seem to have automated a lot of the build.

[Django]

@gt3rs Nice summary, thanks! I would just add in R5C's favour shutter angle (a big plus), custom LUT support and Q&S. 

Also I think there may be more crop modes on R5C and even anamorphic modes?

[gt3rs]

26 minutes ago, Django said:

@gt3rs Nice summary, thanks! I would just add in R5C's favour shutter angle (a big plus), custom LUT support and Q&S. 

Also I think there may be more crop modes on R5C and even anamorphic modes?

Yes good points.

Q&S that is the only way to use 24p without reformatting the card if you change from 25,50 (I never understood this one). Also allow you to use 48fps.

Shutter angle would be very useful indeed if it would be easier to switch fps and formats. As written above going from 8k 24/25/50 RAW to 4k 120 10 bit needs a few menu clicks.... in the R5 and R5 II I store it already with the right shutter speed in C1 and C2.... they really need to add memory banks in Cinema OS. Only use that I would see for me is 1/48 instead of 1/50 for 24p

Anamorphic desqueeze, unfortunately not open gate. 

Custom LUT are supported in the R5 II too: https://cam.start.canon/tc/C017/manual/html/UG-03_Shooting-2_0130.html

Forgot this one too max shutter speed is max 1/2000 on the R5c vs 1/8000 on R5/II this is something that I use for remote camera as I stopped using triggers and try to get the right timing, I just film 8k RAW with high shutter speed and select the  frame after.

 

[independent]

11 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

It might be time to start specifying the SNR when talking about how many stops.

 

For better or worse, I think any standard of dynamic range in quantifiable terms has been established at SNR 2, granted by the only two reviewers who possess Xyla charts. 

Anyway, the recent review shows that the r5 ii in c-log 2 can deliver 13.6 stops at SNR 2, in camera, in 4k modes including 4k fine.

There are very few full frame cameras, cine or not, that have hit that mark. 

[Django]

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Yes good points.

Q&S that is the only way to use 24p without reformatting the card if you change from 25,50 (I never understood this one). Also allow you to use 48fps.

Shutter angle would be very useful indeed if it would be easier to switch fps and formats. As written above going from 8k 24/25/50 RAW to 4k 120 10 bit needs a few menu clicks.... in the R5 and R5 II I store it already with the right shutter speed in C1 and C2.... they really need to add memory banks in Cinema OS. Only use that I would see for me is 1/48 instead of 1/50 for 24p

Anamorphic desqueeze, unfortunately not open gate. 

Custom LUT are supported in the R5 II too: https://cam.start.canon/tc/C017/manual/html/UG-03_Shooting-2_0130.html

Forgot this one too max shutter speed is max 1/2000 on the R5c vs 1/8000 on R5/II this is something that I use for remote camera as I stopped using triggers and try to get the right timing, I just film 8k RAW with high shutter speed and select the  frame after.

 

I remember an R5C review from a guy doing commercials that said he always used this one unusual frame rate for very slight slow-mo. I forget maybe it was 48fps? The result was more subtle than your typical 50/60fps. I have the files somewhere on my hard drive, going to try and figure that one out. I just seem to remember it was in Q&S.

I love having shutter angle, because even in custom modes for HFR it sometimes happens you accidentally change the shutter speed. It also alleviates the math for creative shutter angle shots like 45/90/360 degrees. But yeah no custom banks on cine OS is a bummer. It seems like they're sleeping a bit on that side of things. What about the crop modes on R5C, you can do S35/S16. That's pretty cool if not too many hoops in the menu? 

[eatstoomuchjam]

41 minutes ago, independent said:

Anyway, the recent review shows that the r5 ii in c-log 2 can deliver 13.6 stops at SNR 2, in camera, in 4k modes including 4k fine

Keep in mind that is after noise reduction is applied - and I think that neither the Alexa's 13.5-stop measurement nor the C70's 12.5-stop measurement included that.  It would be useful to understand the numbers.  Still, it looks to be enough of a boost over the R5 for me to do a trade-in once used bodies start hitting the market.  😃

[independent]

Well, I think most cameras have internal processing for noise reduction, even "raw." The Arri Mini LF's dynamic range numbers in Arriraw and Prores were almost exactly the same across the board, which shows you how much NR is being applied in "raw." 

Regarding the c70, the Austrian reviewers measured 12.5 stops in canon raw, and it tops out at 12.8 in XF-AVC. You'd think it would have benefited more from the compressed codec. But the DGO likely already maxed out the DR, cleaning up the canon raw, which otherwise must be the noisiest (least cooked?) raw out there. 

Interestingly, the R5II's 13.6 stops were consistent in oversampled 4k, regular 4k, and even 4K120. Seems to lend credence to a real, meaningful improvement in DR, wherever it is in the pipeline. 

Also, the Canadian reviewer shared the R5 II's XYLA chart, which looks really clean for a Canon camera. Count the stops.

 

[herein2020]

12 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The 2k, 3k, 4k canon stuff is still cost cut but not as bad as the construction of the entry and mid-range stuff. Local store here in Berlin had a tiny, light 18-45mm kit zoom gently fall off a table onto soft flooring and it was irredeemably fucked forever.

The stuff I have taken apart such as an R10 was so delicate inside that I have no idea how they even service the things.

Just the act of partial disassembly is enough to make it dissolve.

It is like the materials are brittle and made of a very low grade plastic, and the ribbon cables seem to be made of paper.

The internal layout is also very busy and you can tell that it is not really meant to be serviced at all by hand.

They seem to have automated a lot of the build.

I think Canon has joined the ranks of the rest of the disposable world, where nothing is expected to last more than 2-4yrs and right at the end of that 2-4yrs they will have a shiny new object for you to buy, and of course when it breaks they expect you to blame yourself for "using it wrong". 

I don't know much about Nikon, but I have held a few of their bodies in the retail stores and I can say without a doubt, between Nikon, Sony, and Canon, Panasonic's bodies feel the highest quality by far.

 

3 hours ago, independent said:

Well, I think most cameras have internal processing for noise reduction, even "raw." The Arri Mini LF's dynamic range numbers in Arriraw and Prores were almost exactly the same across the board, which shows you how much NR is being applied in "raw." 

Regarding the c70, the Austrian reviewers measured 12.5 stops in canon raw, and it tops out at 12.8 in XF-AVC. You'd think it would have benefited more from the compressed codec. But the DGO likely already maxed out the DR, cleaning up the canon raw, which otherwise must be the noisiest (least cooked?) raw out there. 

Interestingly, the R5II's 13.6 stops were consistent in oversampled 4k, regular 4k, and even 4K120. Seems to lend credence to a real, meaningful improvement in DR, wherever it is in the pipeline. 

Also, the Canadian reviewer shared the R5 II's XYLA chart, which looks really clean for a Canon camera. Count the stops.

 

 

It is odd to me though, when you put away all of the charts and pixel peeping and actually get out and shoot, the DR still seems about the same as the R5, there are a few YT videos where they just shot the same outdoor scene with them side by side and the difference did not seem that dramatic; it definitely did not look like the C70's amount of DR. The R5C to R5II comparisons seemed like even less of a difference in real world shooting.

The inclusion of CLOG2 will help with highlight rolloff and make it easier to match the R5II to the C70 when using it as a B cam; in my opinion that will make a bigger visual difference than the DR improvements.

I am noticing in Davinci Resolve that CLOG2 also seems to affect saturation when using managed color, so I will need to brush up on how to properly color grade CLOG2.  Exposing properly seems easier than CLOG3, but color grading it even with managed color seems a little more difficult.

[gt3rs]

In preparation of the next two weeks of Horse Showjumping Events I went to test out the AF and the 200fps.

Both R5 and R5c struggle a lot to keep the rider in focus when filming at field level due to all the obstacle coming in front of the subject. R5 struggles to face AF on people wearing helmets, R5c has helmet support and is surprisingly a tad better, none of the two you can define a custom Area where it searches for faces/helmet, R3 has it. 

R5 II has now this custom area with face tracking that seems to work much better in this extreme scenario:


These 3 examples (same run) R5 and R5c would have lost AF at least 2 out 3 cases







Still surprised by 2k 200fps quality, yes is not super detailed, yes it has stong aliasing but on the market there not much with good DR, good AF that can do 240fps...



 

[herein2020]

3 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

In preparation of the next two weeks of Horse Showjumping Events I went to test out the AF and the 200fps.

Both R5 and R5c struggle a lot to keep the rider in focus when filming at field level due to all the obstacle coming in front of the subject. R5 struggles to face AF on people wearing helmets, R5c has helmet support and is surprisingly a tad better, none of the two you can define a custom Area where it searches for faces/helmet, R3 has it. 

R5 II has now this custom area with face tracking that seems to work much better in this extreme scenario:


These 3 examples (same run) R5 and R5c would have lost AF at least 2 out 3 cases







Still surprised by 2k 200fps quality, yes is not super detailed, yes it has stong aliasing but on the market there not much with good DR, good AF that can do 240fps...



 

 

That does look pretty good, what lens did you use, the RF 70-200 F2.8? You are lucky to have such fun events to go practice with, here all we have right now is endless rain, heat, and humidity, few live events and unless you are shooting for the house good luck getting professional camera gear into the event.

[gt3rs]

38 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

 

That does look pretty good, what lens did you use, the RF 70-200 F2.8? You are lucky to have such fun events to go practice with, here all we have right now is endless rain, heat, and humidity, few live events and unless you are shooting for the house good luck getting professional camera gear into the event.

RF 100-300 at 2.8

I need to practice a bit, this weekend I will film a local event as additional test, but from next week for 4 days there is the biggest international event that I cover, and I don't want to do experiment there. So, camera arrived just in time.

Hockey season starts and the pro team that I cover will soon start the championship, curious to see the AF there as it is also quite challenging.
To launch the season, we wanted to do some high fps slow motion of their top players while shooting onetimers with studio lights, I was looking in renting an Freefly Ember for this, but the super noisy sensor and no AF scares me. I will do some test now with the R5 II at 240fps to see if the effect is good enough as I can then skate with a gimbal and add movement to it at 2.0 with AF so I need way less light.... I did a few years ago at 120fps with the normal stadium light was good but not wow, at 240 plus studio lights may add a bit the wow effect. 

I'm accredited to these events so I can bring whatever I want, this helps.
 

[gt3rs]

19 hours ago, Django said:

What about the crop modes on R5C, you can do S35/S16. That's pretty cool if not too many hoops in the menu? 

Both R5c and R5 II have S35 or APS-C modes but the R5 II is more limited. Both is one menu item, in the R5c you can have it as a button on the R5 II I did not check. 

R5c can do RAW in cropped mode around 5.9k up to 60, plus it can do S16 at 2.9k also RAW (I believe it can do this 2.9k RAW 120).

R5 II can do 4k (oversampled from around 5.1k) up to 60fps and 2k up to 120 fps.

I don't use any as I prefer to crop from 8k as it gives me more freedom and I don't have any S35 lens but for sure for some it may be a very important point.