new camera purchase

[maxJ4380]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

@maxJ4380 I know Canon was taken off the table early on in the discussion but since nobody inquired about the animation purpose of the camera, I figured I'd bring it back into the mix. The reason I mention it is because Canon has introduced animation versions of some of there cameras. I was always curious about those models, but since I do not do animation, my curiosity was fleeting.

from what i have read you need to send the camera back to a service center. The animation firmware update for the camera adds another $300 to the cost. perhaps you can buy preinstalled. i'm not sure.

CanonEOS R960 x 640

CanonEOS R (Stop Motion Firmware)1920 x 1280

CanonEOS RP 960 x 640

CanonEOS RP (Stop Motion Firmware)1920 x 1280

CanonEOS R3 960 x 640

CanonEOS R5 960 x 640

CanonEOS R5 (Stop Motion Firmware)1920 x 1280

CanonEOS R5 C 960 x 640

CanonEOS R6 960 x 640

CanonEOS R6 Mark II960 x 640

CanonEOS R6 Mark II (Stop Motion Firmware)1920 x 1280

CanonEOS R7 960 x 640

CanonEOS R8 960 x 640

As far as i am aware it alters the live view size, which is useful when you set up your scene. its probably very handy to have a larger view available. however the camera still shoots a raw file for your animation.  

it also does something with rf lenses to control flicker and thats as much as i know about it.

I have enough vintage mf lenses and i know the workarounds for flicker so i am not that excited for the canon. if i lacked lenses and was buying into a new system and rf lenses then the canon might be ideal.   

the PanasonicLumix DC-G9  does 1280 x 960 which is better than a standard canon but not one with the animation update. I'm not so sure i am missing out on too much  between the g9 and the canon all things considered. The only other thing that concerns me is mf lenses are fairly solid things, not much to go wrong.

This new rf mount is electronic and plastic (as far as i am aware) what sort of life can you expect if used day in and day out specially if the animation update has the lens working all the time to avoid flicker? you would think canon have done their homework but i would prefer not to be using my money to find out.  

 

[maxJ4380]

for your perusal i found some more info on the canons 

Canon offers a Stop Motion Animation Firmware addon for EOS R, EOS RP, R5, R8, R100, and EOS R6 Mark II cameras. You must purchase a camera with the special firmware, or send your camera in to get it updated. It is a paid offering. (The models that are available may vary by region.)

Here is an overview of the features it provides, and the support in each version of Dragonframe:

FeatureDragonframe 4Dragonframe 5 or newer

Supported CamerasR/RPR/RP/R8/R100/R6 Mark II

HD Live View (1920 x 1280)YESYES

Focus PeakingYESYES

Aperture Lock---YES

Focus Programming---YES

HD Live View: The live view (video assist) is doubled from 960×640 to 1920×1280.

Focus Peaking: The camera shows which parts of the image are in focus with bright colored pixels. You must use an RF lens and set it to ‘MF’.

Aperture Lock: The camera keeps the lens closed during video assist and while capturing photos. This prevents potential flicker from the aperture opening and closing repeatedly. Requires an RF lens and Dragonframe 5 or newer. The feature is always on in Dragonframe 5. You can verify by choosing a fairly closed aperture, like f/22, and looking into the lens. Verify that it is closed during live view. Then verify that when you take a picture it does not open and close.

Focus Programming: This also requires an RF lens and Dragonframe 5 or newer. Dragonframe can program the focus if you create an axis in ARC and set the Connection to ‘Digital Focus’. This feature does not work on a shot that also zooms. Changing the zoom affects the focus range. 

[mercer]

8 hours ago, maxJ4380 said:

from what i have read you need to send the camera back to a service center. The animation firmware update for the camera adds another $300 to the cost. perhaps you can buy preinstalled. i'm not sure.

CanonEOS R960 x 640

CanonEOS R (Stop Motion Firmware)1920 x 1280

CanonEOS RP 960 x 640

CanonEOS RP (Stop Motion Firmware)1920 x 1280

CanonEOS R3 960 x 640

CanonEOS R5 960 x 640

CanonEOS R5 (Stop Motion Firmware)1920 x 1280

CanonEOS R5 C 960 x 640

CanonEOS R6 960 x 640

CanonEOS R6 Mark II960 x 640

CanonEOS R6 Mark II (Stop Motion Firmware)1920 x 1280

CanonEOS R7 960 x 640

CanonEOS R8 960 x 640

As far as i am aware it alters the live view size, which is useful when you set up your scene. its probably very handy to have a larger view available. however the camera still shoots a raw file for your animation.  

it also does something with rf lenses to control flicker and thats as much as i know about it.

I have enough vintage mf lenses and i know the workarounds for flicker so i am not that excited for the canon. if i lacked lenses and was buying into a new system and rf lenses then the canon might be ideal.   

the PanasonicLumix DC-G9  does 1280 x 960 which is better than a standard canon but not one with the animation update. I'm not so sure i am missing out on too much  between the g9 and the canon all things considered. The only other thing that concerns me is mf lenses are fairly solid things, not much to go wrong.

This new rf mount is electronic and plastic (as far as i am aware) what sort of life can you expect if used day in and day out specially if the animation update has the lens working all the time to avoid flicker? you would think canon have done their homework but i would prefer not to be using my money to find out.  

 

I saw that the canon site has the RP with the firmware pre-installed for $999. B&H sells the R6 Mark II with the firmware for $2099 on sale.

It sounds like you know what you need, right now I'm just curious about the process. It seems with the firmware, the Canon variants will have the increased Live View plus a few other benefits. I would think you'd get better raw stills from a larger sensor, so that may be another reason to go a different route than the G9, plus the crop factor you'll get on your vintage lenses.

That said, if you're looking primarily at Live View, then it seems like the Sigma FP/L is the clear winner with 1620x1080 but there are no options to control focus check, magnification. The G9 has some refresh rate issues as well, but I know little about the program and how important/significant that is.

As far as the RF mount... it is an electronic mount but it isn't a plastic mount. Canon may make some cheap, plastic mount, kit lenses, but even the cheapest R mount camera, the R100 has a metal mount.

 

[maxJ4380]

I'll be honest, i haven't explored every possible camera option. When i first looked at the canon. i'm pretty sure you had to buy and send it back for the update. For whatever reason i decided to pass on it at the time. Its nice you can get it preinstalled now.   

None of the (popular) youtubes i have watched mentioned refresh rates issues with the g9 (but thats hardly surprising is it ?) i'll have to go google that and get back to you.

Barely any youtubes talk about any cameras ability to tether to a computer and why you may want to do so. Although if we have another covid outbreak (insert your pandemic of choice here) a niche market might suddenly open up. Hmm something to blog about perhaps ? no one else is doing it. 

A larger sensor would give a better image undoubtably, however i somewhat constrained myself by buying 2 new mft lenses recently, after i decided against going the full frame path. One is the sirui 24mm anamorphic and the other is the artisan 4mm f/2.8 for its interesting perspective. I also have a few dmx lights computer controlled, so getting a nice image isn't a problem on my small sets. 

Not sure anyone has done an anamorphic stop motion movie yet. Think j.j. abrams but with lego, it will be cinematic i swear  😁

[MrSMW]

I’ve seen ‘cinematic with Lego’ on TikTok 😜

[maxJ4380]

6 hours ago, mercer said:

The G9 has some refresh rate issues as well, but I know little about the program and how important/significant that is.

 

 

i could only find one reference is this what your talking about ?

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61375480

curious do you know if the gh5 suffers from the same affliction ?

[maxJ4380]

13 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I’ve seen ‘cinematic with Lego’ on TikTok 😜

cmon, TikTok thats hitting below the belt isn't it 🤔

[John Matthews]

I owned the Olympus E-m5ii for about a day. When I saw the moiré coming off that image, it was sent back in a heartbeat. There was no using it for anything video related. Funny that they marketed it for video because it felt like a bad joke. When you can't trust a camera 90% of the time for moiré, it just becomes unusable.

You CAN trust the E-m5 iii, E-m1ii, E-m1iii, and E-m10 iii (and iv), E-PL9, E-PL10, E-P7 and E-M1x (which is the bargain of the century IMO- just a little big). IMO, most of these Olympus cameras seem to produce better images than the cropped 4k images from Panasonic GX85, GX850, GX9, GX8, etc. However, the Panasonic cameras seems to better with less sensor (noise and less color weirdness). Panasonic always seems to blow away the 1080p of Olympus cameras. Also, most of the tools seem better. Honestly, I'd choose the camera with the best audio; for me, it's the E-M5iii, E-m1ii or iii, E-M1x. All the others don't have audio-in and have crap on-camera audio (get a decent sound recorder).

 

[ac6000cw]

On 9/23/2024 at 3:48 PM, John Matthews said:

I owned the Olympus E-m5ii for about a day. When I saw the moiré coming off that image, it was sent back in a heartbeat. There was no using it for anything video related. Funny that they marketed it for video because it felt like a bad joke. When you can't trust a camera 90% of the time for moiré, it just becomes unusable.

I remember looking at the E-M5 ii for video some years ago (due to it having IBIS, which Pana didn't have at the time). I downloaded a few test clips from reviews, saw how bad the aliasing was and stayed with Panasonic...

On 9/23/2024 at 3:48 PM, John Matthews said:

You CAN trust the E-m5 iii, E-m1ii, E-m1iii, and E-m10 iii (and iv), E-PL9, E-PL10, E-P7 and E-M1x (which is the bargain of the century IMO- just a little big). IMO, most of these Olympus cameras seem to produce better images than the cropped 4k images from Panasonic GX85, GX850, GX9, GX8, etc.

I think I'd agree (based on my E-M1 ii & iii versus G85 & GX85 experience), but the GH5 & G9 are at a higher level of quality. especially in 1080p.

On 9/23/2024 at 3:48 PM, John Matthews said:

Also, most of the tools seem better.

Yes, video is definitely the 'poor relation' to the stills side on Oly/OMDS cameras (even on the OM-1, which is otherwise a much improved video camera over its predecessors). I'd love to be able to reduce the sharpness in 10-bit video on the OM-1 but you can't (it's close to being over-sharpened) and have a 10-bit 'Flat' or 'Natural' picture profile available. On the other hand, the simple three-level IBIS adjustment and being able to turn on and off magnify/movie tele-converter while recording are really useful.

On 9/23/2024 at 3:48 PM, John Matthews said:

Honestly, I'd choose the camera with the best audio; for me, it's the E-M5iii, E-m1ii or iii, E-M1x. All the others don't have audio-in and have crap on-camera audio (get a decent sound recorder).

The on-camera audio is better than the Pana G85 & GX85 (which are particularly bad)...

On 9/18/2024 at 11:27 PM, Andrew Reid said:

I also find OM-LOG very iffy... It needs a lot of work to colour correct.

I agree.

The official 'OMSYSTEM_OM-Log400_BT.2020_to_WDR_BT.709_v1.0.cube' conversion LUT seems to produce odd colours, and I've never found any 3rd party LUTs for the OM-1. After a lot of trial-and-error (and learning about LUTs) I made my own OM-Log400 BT.2020 to BT.709 LUT which I use most of the time.

[maxJ4380]

Everytime i come here, i learn something new. While the e-m5ii is supported on the dragonframe site. The e-m5iii is not, i thought it was because, it was newer perhaps, turns out olympus sort of down rated the e-m5 iii from "professional status" and quietly dropped the tethering and a couple of other things...   There's a lot of things to like about the e-m5 iii but the fact its doesn't tether any more is a dealbreaker for me.

  I did find a site that suggested the olympus protocols has been reverse engineered, so you could have your cake and eat it too, however installing the libraries and getting it set up and running robustly with an e-m5iii is not a course i want to pursue.

I'm of two minds at the moment, considering its 2024. I'd like a later model sensor. Buying an e-m5 ii is a step backwards with its 16mp and ordinary video. it does however tether, the e-m5 iii doesn't. So i am looking at an E-M1 Mark II, new in box been used as a shop display, very low shutter count and new warranty at a price i can afford. The e-m1 iii jumps up a little to steeply for me. Couple of people have mentioned om-log to be a bit iffy. Thats potentially a problem but since i haven't done much with video. Is it likely to be worse or horribly much worse than what's already on youtube ? I think i would be just another sheeple amongst the herd 🙄

i was liking the g9 for a while as well until mercer pointed out an issue with refresh rates and live view which would be a problem when integrated with dragon frame. I'm kinda liking the gh5 for the video side of things i can also find a gh5 at a price i like, the gh6 prices goes up pretty steeply. Unless more info comes to light in the next week or so  i'll probably watch a few more vids and toss a coin.

 

[PannySVHS]

GH5 is still a valid choice. I preferred it's HLG over VLog recording btw. HD mode is fantastic too. Beyond image quality it is just great to use for video, regarding battery life, sturdiness, video modes and so on. I bet they are close to be a steal now on the used market. @maxJ4380

[ac6000cw]

On 10/1/2024 at 12:15 PM, maxJ4380 said:

So i am looking at an E-M1 Mark II, new in box been used as a shop display, very low shutter count and new warranty at a price i can afford. The e-m1 iii jumps up a little to steeply for me

Video quality is the same on both E-M1 ii and iii. Video-related differences are basically better C-AF and IBIS on the iii.

Note the E-M1 ii got a major firmware upgrade in June 2019 (to rev 3.0) so if you buy one, check/update the firmware (latest version is rev 3.7). See https://support.jp.omsystem.com/en/support/imsg/digicamera/download/software/firm/e1/ for firmware details.

On 10/1/2024 at 12:15 PM, maxJ4380 said:

Couple of people have mentioned om-log to be a bit iffy. That's potentially a problem but since i haven't done much with video. Is it likely to be worse or horribly much worse than what's already on youtube ? I think i would be just another sheeple amongst the herd 

'OM Log400' on E-M1 ii & iii is only 8-bit, so isn't as 'gradable' as the video from modern cameras with 10-bit Log. Probably better to shoot in 'Natural' or 'Flat' (low-contrast, but not as low as OM Log).

As for previewing the image before shooting, don't forget that you can connect a large-screen monitor or TV to the HDMI output of the camera, *but* that might not be available when the camera is 'tethered' to a PC.

[maxJ4380]

On 10/3/2024 at 6:20 PM, ac6000cw said:

 

As for previewing the image before shooting, don't forget that you can connect a large-screen monitor or TV to the HDMI output of the camera, *but* that might not be available when the camera is 'tethered' to a PC.

That might work as a simple external monitor. The thing with live view as i understand it is it gives you a constant image which gives you the peaking, magnification and dragonframe takes that and adds onion skinning. Which is used for your shot setup. Feeding a hdmi image back into dragonframe will probably require a capture card as well, more expense and there's a paragraph on the site which says its all doable, but they don't recommend going down that path.

[zlfan]

On 9/18/2024 at 3:27 PM, Andrew Reid said:

I have very mixed feelings about the OM-1.

On one hand, it's a bundle of fun.

On the other hand I have yet to see what the 10bit codec brings to the table over the old E-M1 II. Just doesn't seem to really up the ante for me. The other issue is that the noise is very blotchy and it tops out at 800 for clean results - after 1600 it's really pretty poor and 3200 is a bit of a shit show in 4K and fine detail has a pixel-binned or upscaled look to it, rather than it being oversampled  as was the case with the E-M1 II.

The E-M1 II was the GH5 sensor... And the OM-1 I am not sure what chip it has. But it ain't a GH6 that's for sure.

 

I guess the OM-1 sensor is optimized for DR, sacrificing the high ISO performance. Its DR is said to be at least 1 stop better than EM-1 2 and 3. 

[zlfan]

On 9/28/2024 at 4:03 AM, ac6000cw said:

 

The official 'OMSYSTEM_OM-Log400_BT.2020_to_WDR_BT.709_v1.0.cube' conversion LUT seems to produce odd colours, and I've never found any 3rd party LUTs for the OM-1. After a lot of trial-and-error (and learning about LUTs) I made my own OM-Log400 BT.2020 to BT.709 LUT which I use most of the time.

I guess that the Rec 2020 has a wider gamut than Rec 709. the mapping may not be accurate enough. Another possibility is that Davinci Resolve may not understand the OM-1 10-bit footage well enough to produce accurate results.