Lumix Live Event Stream 8th October 15:00 BST

[BTM_Pix]

Live stream for the announcement of whatever it is they're announcing.

 

[j_one]

Confirmed: So it's S5D, S9 firmware, and S5ii/x firmware.

...Tired of waiting. Literally just want the S1H and S1R with some refresh features from the s5ii. I've been thinking of going full nikon Z + sony E for the system I grow into.

[MrSMW]

Yep, it’s a bit of a yawn fest…

S5D? Umm, yeah, that one is going to absolutely fly off the shelves…

The kit lens. OK as a little travel thing I guess but only if you shoot in good light and don’t mind variable aperture. 

Some LUT stacking firmware and I think an option to remove the record limit on the S9 and cause it to melt at your own risk.

[eatstoomuchjam]

I didn't watch the presentation yet so sorry if this is a dumb question that I'll answer as soon as I've actually watched it later - 

So the S5D is the S5 (not the S5 II), but with some sort of integration with the DJI Lidar sensor that allows it to use the autofocus motor instead of DJI's focus gear?  But since it's not the S5 II, no PDAF if you don't put on the DJI sensor?  Which, to be clear, the DJI Lidar unit costs $600 on its own without the handle or focus motor ($999 for the "Creator combo" which includes all 3 and some cables and mounting hardware).

Who is the target market?  I get that they must have a bunch of S5 in their warehouse that they want to move, but...  who wants this over PDAF in the S5 II?

[zerocool22]

I was hoping on a big firmware update for the s5ii, but looks like a snoozefest. Unless I am missing something, there isnt anything in there that I need.

[sanveer]

What a damp squib. They could have Totally avoided this ... 

[KnightsFan]

I can't help but feel panasonic didn't do anything wrong here. They had a small announcement, so they didn't hype it. The only hype was the outlandish rumors a bunch of people started throwing around. There was no reason to believe there would be a big cinema announcement... if panasonic had a big announcement, they would have hyped it themselves.

What we got was a bunch of firmware updates, a refresh of a low end camera, and a pretty cool new compact lens. I'd actually love their new 18-40 for backpacking trips. Again, if they had indicated in the slightest that there would be a major announcement, that would be a different story.

Kind of amazing if people get disappointed that the thing they made up didn't happen. 

[Davide DB]

How can we not think they are leftovers?

That is why I continue to say that this announcement is pure commercial suicide.

- Hey, we have 5,000 electronic S5s and S5 shells in stock. What are we going to do with them? 
- Why don't we write a firmware upgrade for the Lidar and resell them?
- great idea!

They would have been better off throwing them to the recycling bin. 

[Davide DB]

41 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

I can't help but feel panasonic didn't do anything wrong here. They had a small announcement, so they didn't hype it. The only hype was the outlandish rumors a bunch of people started throwing around. There was no reason to believe there would be a big cinema announcement... if panasonic had a big announcement, they would have hyped it themselves.

What we got was a bunch of firmware updates, a refresh of a low end camera, and a pretty cool new compact lens. I'd actually love their new 18-40 for backpacking trips. Again, if they had indicated in the slightest that there would be a major announcement, that would be a different story.

Kind of amazing if people get disappointed that the thing they made up didn't happen. 

 

No, I do not agree.
Regardless of what is said between the alps, it is a fact that they have not renewed their flagship FF models for more than 5 years. And it doesn't matter that the ones we have are very good. That's the market, baby! That's the rules, right or wrong, and if Pana doesn't follow them they get written off.
Unless Lumix is a secret cult or has a history like Leica.

No, it doesn't have both.

In the next few weeks Sony will make a big announcement. By the time (perhaps) Pana unveils these damn S1M2s, its direct competitors will have completed two iterations of their models.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should follow trends but let's connect the dots: if Pana wants to be in the market and have access to the latest technology in sensors and microchips they have to have the minimum numbers. Having the sufficient numbers is not just to make money but mainly to be able to afford to have a custom sensor designed or access to fewer nanometer (advanced) chips. Otherwise they are cut off.

And when the numbers are what we were quoting just few post before, they are on the edge of extinction. 

Imagine that in 2025 Pana sells 260K cameras while retaining 2023 numbers. How many will be S1HIIs? I mena with a new sensor? That is, how many custom sensors can you ask a supplier for? Maybe too few and you have to choose from the catalog.

[Andrew Reid]

They have not entirely quit the camera industry but it does feel like a soft quit at the moment.

[KnightsFan]

My comment was exclusively about todays live stream, which was very low key and routine for some mundane items.

But in the larger picture, its true that in the past few years, panasonic has exclusively released mid budget full frame cameras. They haven't competed with the $4300 R5 for sure. So if we are talking about the >$3500-ish market, Panasonic may be out. But in the $1500-$2500 market, I don't see anything that is noticeably more appealing than what panasonic offers, except maybe the quite recent Nikon Z6III, specifically if you care about readout speed.

Like I said in the other topic, it may be the case that there simply isn't a better sensor that is reasonably priced right now. It's not like the competition has better sensors in similar priced bodies.

[Andrew Reid]

I'd say the A7 IV has a better sensor in a similarly priced body ($1500-2500 market).

The Z6 III clearly is a new generation of sensor, in that same mid-range price bracket.

The S5 Mark II is competitive on price, but Panasonic may as well give up on taking any sales away from the others.

I really do think now that they have quit the flagship enthusiast and high-end market, in order to leave it to Leica.

There can be no other explanation.

The S1 series didn't sell well enough, so why throw good money after bad when they can use a tiny fraction of the budget on very low-cost stuff like the S9 with a 7 year old sensor?

And they have continued to get new LSIs and new firmware features such as on the GH7, new codecs, ProRes, etc.

So maybe there is a built up to a new S1H or something like that.

But I just find it all very strange that in the 6 years between the big important S1 series launch and now, they have absolutely nothing to show for it.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/panasonic-hiatus-worries-as-flagship-cameras-remain-nowhere-to-be-seen-in-2024/

[KnightsFan]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I'd say the A7 IV has a better sensor in a similarly priced body ($1500-2500 market).

Maybe slightly, but not in a meaningful way imo. If you really want slightly higher resolution. Similar to the z6III where it's better if you specifically want faster readout.

So I don't think that panasonics S5 line is significantly behind the similarly priced competition today, and while you can certainly disagree, I bet a large chunk of buyers see that pool of 24 MP hybrids as being pretty similar in overall value, considering the body alone.

[eatstoomuchjam]

At some point, the ecosystem becomes relevant.  Are Panasonic's bodies in the $1,500-2,500 range price-competitive with competition in a similar bracket?  Sure.  Do any/many of them offer compelling features in excess of the competition?  Not really.

In that range, I can get an R6 Mark II, A Z6 III, or an A7 IV.  Just slightly out of that range, an R5 (currently about $2,900) or even a used Komodo (I can say from personal experience that they're now available on ebay for <$3,000 - my K-X now has a cute little brother).  Those options would put me in RF mount, Z mount, and E mount which are all supported by vendors who are regularly releasing new cameras and show every sign of still being in the industry in 3-5 years.  Fuji X mount is also an option in that price point and excellent, though there's no FF option if that's a requirement.

On the other hand, if Panasonic folds or stops releasing new cameras, what are my other options in L mount?  Leica are a combination of expensive as hell and seemingly reliant on Panasonic for their electronics.  Sigma haven't released a new L mount camera since the fp-l in 2021.

What does Panasonic offer that the others don't?  In photo terms, not much that I can think of.  In video terms, internal ProRes on some models?  Fuji has it too, but again, if we're only looking at FF...  ProRes could be useful for some working professionals, but for a lot of the kids, they're apt to be a lot more excited by internal raw on Canon and Nikon.   Panasonic still have, I think, the best IBIS in the industry.  Is that enough of a selling point?  Judging by the sales numbers above, a big majority of customers say no.  If I have $1,500 in my pocket to buy a camera, do I buy the S9 or the FX30?

But also, as far as working pros go, these days, most are going to go Sony and of those that don't go Sony, most will go Canon.  That's just how the industry has gone.

[eatstoomuchjam]

It's regrettable because cameras like the GH2 and GH5 were truly industry-leading in any number of ways.  I loved both of them - but failure to continue innovating has let everybody else catch up or surpass them.

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

But also, as far as working pros go, these days, most are going to go Sony and of those that don't go Sony, most will go Canon

Without question, if I had a blank slate, I’d buy either Sony or Canon now. Maybe Nikon, but mostly likely Sony.

They may not be the most exciting and are lacking in various areas, but so many options and combos that can be put together.

For stills, for my needs, I have already found the best combo (IMO) available ok the market based on a single body plus 3 lenses.

For video, ditto but with L Mount. But would I invest in L Mount today? 

Absolutely not because it does appear very much now as Andrew says, they are soft-quitting the marketplace.

Leica is too expensive and Sigma look like they are just focusing on glass now so it does look like:

Leica = high end bodies

LUMIX = low to mid bodies

Sigma = lenses

As a business user with a clean sheet start, absolutely no way I’d invest in a product line that I had no faith I could grow with over the years.

But it is what it is. A bit sad really…

[ND64]

9 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I can't help but feel panasonic didn't do anything wrong here.

Except that they let somebody leak S5 local minor update, and snowball effect started from there. 

[ND64]

5 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If I have $1,500 in my pocket to buy a camera, do I buy the S9 or the FX30?

If you were a 22 years old vlogger, you would buy FX30. Not because its a better camera, but because you've seen it in hand of many of other vloggers you are trying to replicate their style of work. Sony marketing has established a collective belief that if you wanna do video, you've got to use Sony. You can't beat a better marketing with better IBIS. 

[John Matthews]

Wow. It sounds like everyone is giving up on Panasonic. Not me. I get the disappointment—no S1H II—but you still have to hand it to them for taking a different path of fewer camera updates and more firmware updates. Granted, they've seemingly screwed the pooch on two successive events: the S9 and the S9 firmware update. It seems this was mainly an attempt at a re-release of the S9, responding to the many complaints about it. Given the hardware they put in it, I think it's successful. No, it doesn’t have an EVF, mechanical shutter, or hot shoe, but they did address other issues. The new 18-40mm lens isn’t exactly God’s gift to lenses, but it's a good start to the lineup. Now, we need to see smaller primes for it to make some sense.

Personally, I won’t leave Panasonic now, nor will I entertain the idea for some time. I don’t see the point in chasing the latest and greatest without any serious need for the features they offer, and I intend to reward the company for continuing to make improvements. Sony offers firmware—it’s called a 'new camera.' Canon offers firmware when people complain enough. Nikon releases cameras and apparently forgets to check if they work as intended. Fuji used to issue major firmware updates, but now they just mess up their cameras. Panasonic is the only one giving a slow, methodical release schedule. Sure, their cameras don’t always hit home and their marketing is wacky, but I don’t see the snafus of other companies. I imagine they are proud of the cameras they release, and they’re probably equally proud of the cameras they haven’t released due to not being ready.

[BTM_Pix]

Something the S9 has going for it over the other S cameras is the hybrid zoom function.

Its 1.5x in 4K so this new 18-40mm becomes an 18-60mm with that extension so it actually makes the whole combo a more interesting proposition as a package.

I'm guessing that Panasonic not giving it to the other cameras is a deliberate differentiation for that purpose so they can offer compact packages albeit with slower lenses that still maintain some of the range people want.

If it was launched as this combo from the get go then I think a lot of the "I'm trying to be positive about this camera because they've flown me all the way here to shill it for them" lukewarm fixed grin "reviews" would've been a lot more positive.

Because with this lens - and I'm guessing a similar tele companion version won't be far behind -the S9 makes a whole lot more sense.

As it was, they blew that by having the silly pancake lens with it for the launch so all compactness would have to go out of the window by putting the usual L mount lenses on it.