New Fujifilm Eterna Cinema Cam.

[Django]

..or Gareth Edwrds who shot the Creator on an FX3. But I agree the cinema world is super conservative with ARRI sitting firmly on top. TV, docu & indie is a more crowded market but there are big players: RED, BM, Canon C & Sony FX. I'm not sure who the target of this Fuji Eterna will be, its gotta be super niche. It's kind of the camera nobody asked for. Medium format sounds great but if you're going to have poor rolling shutter with razor thin DoF plus huge lenses, I don't see many applications where this would warrant such an investment.

I've said this a while ago, but my dream for Fuji is that they revive their old school Fujica system with hand grip a la Bolex. Modernise it with pro I/O and an EVF/flip screen but keep the form factor and essence. Place the XH2S sensor with built-in cooling and an E-ND. It could even be vertical sensor default and it would switch if you rotate 90 degrees. That might make people cringe but the camera would be a hit in wide segments (think X100 craze). And if anyone can go quirky/retro/legacy its Fuji X:

[JulioD]

9 hours ago, ND64 said:

Its not like gaming PC that you overclock a bit and gain some extra performance. The sensor should support that specific read out capacity. 

Yes.  No way are they getting anything much better from what this sensor already does.

[eatstoomuchjam]

9 hours ago, ND64 said:

Its not like gaming PC that you overclock a bit and gain some extra performance. The sensor should support that specific read out capacity. 

Wrong. There are plenty of examples of overclocking various sensors over the years.  You can find them using a little-known research tool called "google."  You might try that in the future before responding.  Just like a computer, overclocking a sensor can lead to increased power consumption, increased heat (leading to more noise), and instability.

Here's one example.
https://wiki.edgertronic.com/wiki/Overclock

Increased power consumption and heat are hard to deal with in a hybrid camera body which takes a single fairly small battery and has no fan.  They're easier to deal with on a larger camera with integrated cooling fan and a v-mount battery (judging by the pictures, the camera uses them natively).

[JulioD]

Only if the sensor supports those modes.  
 

It’s not overclocking.  

[Ninpo33]

13 minutes ago, JulioD said:

Only if the sensor supports those modes.  
 

It’s not overclocking.  

And you know for a fact that this sensor doesn’t support any tweaks/adjustments or the ability to improve performance? Please post a link. 

[ND64]

4 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

And you know for a fact that this sensor doesn’t support any tweaks/adjustments or the ability to improve performance?

That tweaks/adjustments are hardware changes, and needs redoing a lot of stuff at fab level. It's not like you edit a few lines of code and get a more capable sensor. Does GFX100II sensor support different modes of read out? Who knows.. But if there is any, thats not simple as "let the sensor consume more power". 

[eatstoomuchjam]

46 minutes ago, ND64 said:

That tweaks/adjustments are hardware changes, and needs redoing a lot of stuff at fab level. It's not like you edit a few lines of code and get a more capable sensor. Does GFX100II sensor support different modes of read out? Who knows.. But if there is any, thats not simple as "let the sensor consume more power". 

Good job redefining the argument so that you can be right.  Literally nobody said "edit a few lines of code" or "let the sensor consume more power."  You win today's gold star for bad faith argument loss tactics.

[ND64]

4 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Good job redefining the argument so that you can be right.  Literally nobody said "edit a few lines of code" or "let the sensor consume more power."  You win today's gold star for bad faith argument loss tactics.

Dude its not abortion ban subject. You just need to learn more about sensors, even their datasheet can help, and you'll find out. "Literally nobody said let the sensor consume more power"? Really? This is your exact words: "Wrong. There are plenty of examples of overclocking various sensors over the years". Unless we assume you're "nobody". Fair enough.

[eatstoomuchjam]

8 hours ago, ND64 said:

Dude its not abortion ban subject. You just need to learn more about sensors, even their datasheet can help, and you'll find out. "Literally nobody said let the sensor consume more power"? Really? This is your exact words: "Wrong. There are plenty of examples of overclocking various sensors over the years". Unless we assume you're "nobody". Fair enough.

Yes, I said there are examples of overclocking sensors over the years.  No, I didn't say that doing so is simply a matter of adding a few lines of code or letting the sensor consume more power.  That's not how overclocking is done, even on a computer.  Maybe instead of telling me to learn more about sensors, you should learn more about electronics.

I also provided you an example of a manufacturer who gives advice on how to overclock their sensors.  Do you know more than they do, now?  Here's another example.  This one refers to overclocking a CCD, but the commentary can be applicable to CMOS sensors as well.

https://www.edmundoptics.com/knowledge-center/application-notes/imaging/basics-of-digital-camera-settings-for-improved-imaging-results/

As far as reading datasheets, that's far from the whole picture for everything that can be done with an image sensor.  Even without overclocking, there are readout methods supported that aren't documented.  One example would be the Z Cam E2-F6.  Again, it's not overclocked, but it does support several styles of readout that aren't documented in the datasheet for its sensor.

Even if overclocking isn't directly supported, it's not out of the question that Fuji could ask Sony to send them a tweaked variant of the sensor.

Anyway, moving forward, don't put words in my mouth and/or learn to read better.

[JulioD]

20 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

And you know for a fact that this sensor doesn’t support any tweaks/adjustments or the ability to improve performance? Please post a link. 

Here you go bro.

This is an example of a sensor spec sheet.  By the way, the really quick way to tell if the rolling shutter is “fast” is to look at the fastest frame rate the camera can do.

It’s not complicated.  But thinking you can just “overclock” without it being DESIGNED to actually do that or have those modes designed from the ground up.  

This sensor is designed around being a stills sensor.  Not a fast RS motion sensor.  

Page 105 shows the maximum frame rates depending on the mode being used.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/85986570odkx36kc7tw9e/GFX100-Data-Sheet-2.pdf?rlkey=6ek4lgy5lqcx138jz3afliuks&e=1&dl=0

 

 

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

3 hours ago, JulioD said:

Page 105 shows the maximum frame rates depending on the mode being used.

What a pity for me and for every other current user of the GFX 100 II that, according to the table on page 105, the sensor being used by it has absolutely no capability to do 4k at 60 frames per second, 8k at 24-30 frames per second, or 5.8k at anything resembling 24-30fps.  Thanks so much for enlightening all of us as to how useful the sensor data sheet is for understanding the actual capacity of the sensor being used in the GFX 100 II.  You also get a gold star.

[JulioD]

To be fair this is the spec sheet for the Mk1.

It’s safe to assume it’s in the same sensor family.  A modest improvement of RS time is likely compared to the MK2 as is.  It’s not going to be radically different. 
 

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

Cined's interview with Fuji that I posted above pretty much confirms that the Eterna camera is "basically the same" as the GFX 100 II in terms of capability.  So I don't think it's even safe to say that the RS improvement is "likely."  It's possible, but I wouldn't bank on it.

It's believed by just about everybody that the GFX 100 II continues to use an IMX 461, given the complete lack of meaningful change in photo capabilities and the fact that Sony doesn't have any newer sensor available.  It's not clear whether it's been tweaked by Sony or whether Fuji is using some other trickery (such as using an 11-bit readout instead of 12-bit) to achieve the increased frame rates.

Anyway, the point isn't what it's safe to assume about this camera, but that is a nice attempt to reframe the argument so that you'll be right.  The point is that the readout modes chart in the sensor data sheet doesn't give the entire picture about the capabilities of the sensor and nothing in that datasheet or elsewhere specifically excludes the possibility of overclocking.  You know, the argument that you were actually trying to make and failed at.

[ND64]

8 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Do you know more than they do, now? 

What you're talking about is for EM-CCD sensors, not CMOS.

"Pixel clock rate is an important specification for CCD and EM-CCD cameras, but not for CMOS cameras because of chip architecture. Unlike CCD and EM-CCD cameras where photoelectrons from each pixel are converted into voltage one-at-a-time via a single amplifier, in CMOS cameras each pixel has its own amplifier, so conversion of photoelectrons happens in parallel in all the pixels."

From Hamamatsu company website. You know more than they do? 

[eatstoomuchjam]

For fuck's sake.  I'm going to respond one more time to this stupid shit and then I'm done.

I'll repost it again for the two genius experts who failed to read it the first time.  Here is an entry on the wiki from a company who makes CMOS cameras talking about the overclocking options that exist for their camera, at least one of which is listed as potentially destabilizaing the camera.

https://wiki.edgertronic.com/wiki/Overclock

So, in the argument of "can you overclock a CMOS sensor," the answer is a simple "yes."  Unless you can provide a specific piece of documentation from the manufacturer of CMOS sensors that says that "CMOS sensors cannot be overclocked in any way," then it's not worth continuing this discussion.  Note that the above shit pasted from the "Hamamatsu company website" does not specifically say "you can not overclock a CMOS sensor."  It does sound, though, like doing so would be different than overclocking a CCD.

Again, provide actual hard evidence that counters the actual evidence that I have provided or stop making useless arguments.

[JulioD]

What they are calling "overclock" isn't.  This looks like some kind of industrial high speed camera.

It's just a different operating MODE.  Just like on the spec sheet. And the so called downsides are more to do with the engineering side on the camera (thermals and data pipes) not keeping up.

And 1000% certain that Fuji aren't going to offer a menu option that says "overclock me baby"

 

 

 

[KnightsFan]

It looks promising! Everything looks sensibly laid out, more or less. I'd be extremely surprised if Fuji doesn't intend to follow up with a S35 version if this sells well.

On a side note, the number of people on various sites who said "I would buy x camera if they put it in a cinema body!" and now turn around and say "it's just a lazily rehoused x camera" is truly mind boggling.

[IronFilm]

On 11/13/2024 at 2:05 AM, eatstoomuchjam said:

On a hybrid body like the GFX 100 II, they are fantastic options and the image can look really nice.  On a dedicated cinema camera, it seems bizarre.  If they put in a huge fan that lets them overclock the processor/sensor and get more/better modes than the GFX 100 II, it could be interesting.  If not, given that the price is likely to be $6k+, if I had that money burning a hole in my pocket, I'd be far more likely to pick up a C80 and get triple base ISO, internal ND (maybe the Fuji will have it, but those pictures don't look like it), faster readout, and better dynamic range.

I'd be guessing the new GFX Fujfilm camera rather than being similar priced to a C80 it will instead be closer to double (or more) the price of a Canon C80 

Hopefully there will be coming out a S35 version with an X Mount instead, and along with it a much lower price. 

On 11/13/2024 at 2:54 AM, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

"Oh, but the Fuji colors" - sorry, this is a non-issue on cine market, where everything is heavily color graded.

Color still matters a lot. There is a reason why ARRI is #1.

Plus there is an awful lot of content at the lower budget levels which uses SOOC colors, or just a simple LUT slapped on it. Because time is money, and they want a speedy workflow. 

 

On 11/13/2024 at 2:54 AM, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

But between this and the rumored "half frame" 1-inch camera, worries me as a Fuji user that development resources are being wasted in risky markets - much better be used to pay some Sony guys to change place for AF, and some Olympus guys for IBIS tuning in video...

Wait, what... there is a 1-in / Super 16 camera coming out?? Where is news of these rumors. 

https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilms-move-to-1-inch-sensors-a-perfect-opportunity-to-revive-the-x30-xq2-and-xf1/

Ahhh.... I see, will be something like a competitor to the Sony RX100 / RX10 ?? Would be nice, I really liked my Fujifilm XQ1 / XF1, would be nice to see an updated 1" version of them. 

[IronFilm]

On 11/14/2024 at 3:55 PM, Caleb Genheimer said:

Yeah. I have a feeling the next gen of BMD stuff will begin making the “big dogs” like Arri and Red more than a little concerned. Even simple iterations on the Pyxis and the new RGBW LF Ursa will be devastating. 

Just add NDs to the Pyxis and they'll make huge in roads. 

Add then next semi usable AF and it will be the cheery on top.

On 11/14/2024 at 3:20 PM, Ninpo33 said:

 

Maybe this will help give us the full frame lumix EVA or a FX3 mk2 box camera from Sony.

Panasonic already has the BS1H (& BGH1), the just need to do next the mk2 with all the various flaws of the original one fixed up.

On 11/14/2024 at 3:55 PM, Caleb Genheimer said:

I’m primarily eyeing the impact on classic-type Alexa pricing though! If I can snag one with open gate for around $4k I’ll be a happy camper. The bottom has to drop out eventually!

Nearly there!

 

[Ninpo33]

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

 

Panasonic already has the BS1H (& BGH1), the just need to do next the mk2 with all the various flaws of the original one fixed up.

Nearly there!

 

Yeah, we’ve had this discussion before. Obviously the 1st gen Panasonic box cameras were kind of a lazy recycling of parts, not a truly innovative new mini cinema cam. 
 

The GFX 100ii is $7k so the Eterna being double the price of a C80 makes sense. It’s apples or oranges anyway.