Something is nagging at me to go back to smaller sensor

[BTM_Pix]

9 hours ago, kye said:

Please don't.

Sadly, I've reached the point where I have to choose between retaining a detailed knowledge of long forgotten music and recording technology or doing more than surface skimming a new camera spec sheet that I'm only vaguely interested in and thereby risk making erroneous assumptions.

I can't do both so I'm off to sit on a park bench with my thermos flask of tea and a tartan rug where I will wax lyrical to passing birds about how to manipulate the tape sync and sequencer functions of the Greengate DS:3 to fool it into becoming a de-facto AMS 15-80S for live triggered drum replacement.

[MrSMW]

20 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm off to sit on a park bench with my thermos flask of tea and a tartan rug where I will wax lyrical to passing birds about how to manipulate the tape sync and sequencer functions of the Greengate DS:3 to fool it into becoming a de-facto AMS 15-80S for live triggered drum replacement.

I find they don’t tend to give a fuck these days as their attention spans are limited to TikTok memes only.

Birds just aren’t what they used to be…

[PannySVHS]

14 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

One reason I like full frame is that I do not want the character of a wide-open lens! My most common lens choice is in the 28-35mm range at f5.6 or f8.

There are plenty lenses at F2.8 or F4 on MFT which deliver your desired depth of field and not being wide open. The 12-35 already fits the bill and is exellent at F4, same for the Oly 17mm F1.8 at 2.8/4 or some optics from Laowa and so on. F4 vs F8 also eliminates a two stop difference in iso performance.

@QuickHitRecord GH1 really has color mojo and palette. A GH1 with the 50mbit codec and highlight rolloff of a GH3 would be all I really need. With 10bit and 10 stops dynamic range it'd be all I want. Lovely montage and video!

@BTM_Pix You, your humour, support and knowledge are staying!:) I'm eager to see your footage of these lovely birds filmed with the mighty FZ2000!:)

@Andrew ReidI think the universe deserves a British gentleman filming the world on sticks. The nerd will celebrate your renewed interest in Mft. Dual Gain sensor and fast read outs in a rock solid body are compelling. I get a solid image out of full frame Lumix any time of the day. But I am not falling in deep love with it. The S line kicks ass in lit scenarios beyond anything I would be able to buy though. I could imagine the GH6/7 and G9II being a S1H with mojo, magic and fast readouts, also weighting 40% or 400g less and adding super much nerdy toys to play with, such as 4K120, HD240, crop modes and so on plus the aforementioned Dual Gain, an exiting tech and new processing as well as colour science to explore and tinker with.

[BTM_Pix]

21 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I find they don’t tend to give a fuck these days as their attention spans are limited to TikTok memes only.

Birds just aren’t what they used to be…

Indeed.

Any notion that the vagaries of Apple II based sampling/sequencing systems of yore is of any interest to the birds is, as they say, "for the birds".

Hang on, I may have crossed the streams there.

25 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

I'm eager to see your footage of these lovely birds filmed with the mighty FZ2000!:)

Live scenes as they react to my tales of 1984 technology 

[PannySVHS]

That bird reminds me of Paulie from "The Sopranos"?😂 @BTM_Pix

[Ilkka Nissila]

22 hours ago, sanveer said:

Interesting. That's what most people said was the reason why the iPhone shows 12 stops of dynamic range (whereas the real dynamic range and thus exposure latitude would be much lesser). 

This is why a standardized test protocol for dynamic range is needed that is not dependent on or sensitive to processing that trades off detail to reduce noise. Patch average-based DR testing would achieve that in part, but it would still need to somehow turn off temporal noise reduction to get a true idea of what the camera's hardware is capable of.

 

The solution could be to capture 1 second of video of a patch sequence and then average the pixels spatially within each patch and over the 1 second sequence of video, and use the DR evaluated from that. This would normalize the results so that spatial and temporal noise reduction are cancelled out. The patches should be of fixed size relative to the whole frame dimensions.

[fuzzynormal]

On 12/9/2024 at 10:12 PM, MrSMW said:

not a fan of non-deliberate camera movement... heavyweight tripods

Yeah, if a move isn't motivated, then...why do it? 

On the other hand, it's a lot of fun to actually and effectively realize motivated movement; movement that helps tell the story.  When that happens you're now not just getting coverage, but doing things that start to get cinematic, imo.

Been working on two documentaries this year and I've literally wanted to shake the camera-people that shot the footage and ask them how they like it.  Spaztic shooting, very amateur hour. 

For the most part I don't use tripods these days for my own stuff, but I try to stay as quiet with the lens as possible. Still, I would have loved a heavy duty smooth-as-silk-Sachtler for some recent wildlife work where I was over (ffeq) 1500mm a lot.  Had creative solutions to get me through, but something with excessive MASS would have been the exception to my typical "stay-mobile" attitudes.

[eatstoomuchjam]

1 hour ago, fuzzynormal said:

I was over (ffeq) 1500mm a lot

1500mm (equiv) will quickly show any weaknesses in your tripod.  Or your lens mount.  Or any heat in-between you and the subject.  Or somebody walking 5 meters away.  😉

[fuzzynormal]

58 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

1500mm (equiv) will quickly show any weaknesses in your tripod.  Or your lens mount.  Or any heat in-between you and the subject.  Or somebody walking 5 meters away.  😉

Or if you fart within arms length of the rig.  Looks cool when it work though.

[IronFilm]

On 12/10/2024 at 5:00 AM, MrSMW said:

In what regard...because nope, never heard of either of them?!

I was just joking around, as I don't think the next generation Z50 or a "Z90" (the mirrorless version of a D500) is coming any time soon. But if it was then it would for sure have 4:2:2 10bit and more?

 

[newfoundmass]

If the GH7 had come out three years ago I'd still be a m43 shooter. I only made the change because I thought Lumix had abandoned m43 and the S5 on the used market was such a bargain. It was like, do I hold on to all this m43 gear and hope Lumix comes out with a camera that works for me or do I offload this gear while it still has value and switch to something else?

The full frame look never blew me away the way it did others. For me the primary benefit has been the better low light, but as you said @Andrew Reidthe low light on the latest m43 cameras has been pretty darn good, certainly "good enough" for most of us. I sparingly want shallow depth of field, so I'm often shooting at f4 or more anyway. Is it nice to be able to throw on one of the fantastic Lumix f1.8 prime lenses and get really shallow depth of field when I want it? Yeah, but I usually only want that for stills not video and I can count maybe two or three dozen times in the last 3 years when I've wanted that look. That's not a lot, and I can't sit here and say that if I'd been "forced" to settle for a f1.4 or f1.7 prime on m43 to achieve it that I wouldn't have been pleased with the results.

I DO see an improvement in image quality, but I've also never been a stickler for that either. I loved the GH5 because of how it changed the way I shot, not because it had the best image quality or color science. For me, image quality and color were more than "good enough" even if they weren't THE BEST. I didn't need the best though, I just needed the features that the GH5 gave me that no other camera did. I used to have to use stabilizers to get useable handheld footage. All the sudden, because of IBIS and lens stabilization, I was able to get great handheld footage with nothing more than the camera, lens, a cage and a side handle. I could still get great footage even without the cage and side handle if I wanted to! That was HUGE. It was the greatest leap forward I'd had in changing my workflow since the switch from big clunky S-VHS and Betacam cameras to the Canon XL-1 and Canon GL-1 camcorders.

There is still a lot to love about (and potential in!) m43. I miss the smaller, lightweight lenses of m43. I miss the smaller footprint overall (being able to take the GX85 with the 35-100 f2.8 into any venue with rules barring interchangeable lens cameras and not even raising an eyebrow was amazing!) I really, really wish they'd devote some resources to make truly small and compact cameras, because to me that is what is missing from the market. I don't want to use my phone because I don't get the same joy out of taking a picture or filming something with it. Could a modern Lumix GM1 work? I think so! I'd buy one and carry it with me everywhere! I think it'd even be a hit with the YouTube "creator" crowd.

But yes, we really have kind of lost the plot when it comes to this whole hobby and industry as a whole. We've gotten so caught up in hype and specs, while placing less value in what got us into it to begin with and that's the process and the rewards. To me, that's the biggest difference between modern "creators" and those of us who have been doing this before becoming a YouTuber/creator/social media influencer ever became a career path. I shot with extremely limited cameras (compared to today), edited on linear editing systems like Videonics and Video Toaster, and had to devote a lot of time, patience, and passion into what I created, even if it was a project that was under 5 minutes in length. Even when things moved to digital and NLEs first became available for us poor folk (thank you to my college friends that got me academic discounts!), we'd have to still capture the footage and do a lot of the work in editing. Now you just film, dump the footage, bring it into your editor, and the NLE does a lot of the heavy lifting. It's why most of it all feels and looks the same. 

Fuck it, let's all just start filming on Betacam shoulder cams and Video Toaster again! Or at least mini-DV and old copies of Avid or Final Cut Pro! I know I still have my original Final Cut Pro 4, 5, 6 & 7 install discs somewhere!

[fuzzynormal]

On 12/12/2024 at 12:22 PM, newfoundmass said:

 

and Video Toaster again! Or at least mini-DV and old copies of Avid or Final Cut Pro! I know I still have my original Final Cut Pro 4, 5, 6 & 7 install discs somewhere!

You joke, but I spent this summer getting my old Amiga 2500 back up and running and playing around with the VT.

As for FC7.  The best looking movie I ever made was cut in FC7 and shot with a LUMIX gx7, so....

[Andrew Reid]

That's quite funny as this summer I got hold of an Amiga 1200, then went down the rabbit hole of building a 1990s PC to accompany it. Next task to is to get the old firewire Macbook laptop up and running again for FCP 7 and import my MiniDV tapes.

On 12/12/2024 at 8:22 PM, newfoundmass said:

The full frame look never blew me away the way it did others. For me the primary benefit has been the better low light, but as you said @Andrew Reidthe low light on the latest m43 cameras has been pretty darn good, certainly "good enough" for most of us.

The fact is with sensor size, there are great lenses on all formats... from Super 16mm to medium format, and the sensor size only enables you to use more of them. There's also a point where full frame lenses all start to look very similar, with a few standouts... and it's the same on all formats, so it's better to have a crop sensor and a standout superb optic with rendering character and versatility, than it is to have a larger sensor and a boring modern lens on it. Small sensors also enable a deep DOF for telephoto shots which can be quite creatively interesting... for example there's nothing you can put on full frame that mimics the long telephoto reach of a Huawei P40 Pro 135mm along with such a deep DOF and so much in focus in the frame.

I like the 60MP sensor in the Sigma Fp-L as it performs very well at 1.0x, 1.5x and 2x crop for RAW video.

So you can go from shooting full frame one moment to Super 16mm the next with the same camera.

Or rather... From a Leica Noctilux to a Kern Switar 26mm F1.1 within seconds.

In the old days that would have required two cameras.

This with the Pana S9 is even better as the IBIS on maximum-crop for maximum stability is like using a tripod.

Except you can just walk around, frame up and go, from the palm of your hand.

It's such a nimble and quick way to shoot compared to how the pros and crews operate on location and how miserable they are.

[MrSMW]

49 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It's such a nimble and quick way to shoot compared to how the pros and crews operate on location and how miserable they are.

🥶

[hoodlum]

I am looking forward to see what Canon has planned in 2025 for APS-C.  This will also force Nikon and Sony to start taking APS-C more seriously, providing more competition for the GH7 and Fuji.

https://www.canonrumors.com/there-are-a-couple-of-higher-end-rf-s-zoom-lenses-coming-with-the-eos-r7-mark-ii/

We have been told that Canon will be shaking up it’s APS-C line “significantly” later in 2025. It sort of sounds like there are going to be some deparatures instead of simple Mark II versions of the APS-C line.

The EOS R7 Mark II will be the first APS-C Canon camera to get a stacked sensor. There was no word on the resolution of the new sensor, but it would be cool to see it go slightly above the current 32.5mp to give it 8K capabilities. As we’ve mentioned before, and we’re being told again. The EOS R7 Mark II will be going “up market”, so it may be a true EOS 7D Mark II successor.

[eatstoomuchjam]

Don't Sony take APS-C seriously?  It seems to me like the FX30 is one of the most popular entry-level cinema cameras on the market - due in no small part to being an excellent camera (from all that I've heard, I've never used one personally).

If we're talking glass, I have no idea what's currently available from Sony themselves, but with the popularity of E mount and Sony being permissive with licenses (or not requiring them?), just about every third-party vendor releases a version of their stuff for it (including the outstanding Fujinon MK series).  🙂 

[PPNS]

On 12/14/2024 at 6:35 PM, Andrew Reid said:

It's such a nimble and quick way to shoot compared to how the pros and crews operate on location and how miserable they are.

Have you actually been on a real set Andrew?

[hoodlum]

37 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Don't Sony take APS-C seriously?  It seems to me like the FX30 is one of the most popular entry-level cinema cameras on the market - due in no small part to being an excellent camera (from all that I've heard, I've never used one personally).

If we're talking glass, I have no idea what's currently available from Sony themselves, but with the popularity of E mount and Sony being permissive with licenses (or not requiring them?), just about every third-party vendor releases a version of their stuff for it (including the outstanding Fujinon MK series).  🙂 

It is a great body but it still using a non-stacked sensor which Fuji and Olympus had a couple years ago already. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

14 hours ago, hoodlum said:

It is a great body but it still using a non-stacked sensor which Fuji and Olympus had a couple years ago already. 

I had no idea that a stacked sensor was required for a company to take a format seriously.

What a pity that Fuji don't take their medium format system seriously.  😉 

[IronFilm]

On 12/20/2024 at 10:39 AM, eatstoomuchjam said:

Don't Sony take APS-C seriously?  It seems to me like the FX30 is one of the most popular entry-level cinema cameras on the market - due in no small part to being an excellent camera (from all that I've heard, I've never used one personally).

If we're talking glass, I have no idea what's currently available from Sony themselves, but with the popularity of E mount and Sony being permissive with licenses (or not requiring them?), just about every third-party vendor releases a version of their stuff for it (including the outstanding Fujinon MK series).  🙂 

I agree, I think Sony and Fujifilm are the two best right now for APS-C. Fujifilm because well X Mount is APS-C, so of course they are taking it quite seriously. And the X-H / X-T / X-S series of cameras shows they'll cater to the mid to upper level photographers. 

With Sony, you've got an insane amount of E Mount choices for lenses, plus various nice first party lenses such as the Sony 18-110mm f4, and for photographers: Sony 16-55mm f2.8 / Sony 24mm f1.8 / Sony 16-70mm f4 / Sony 10-20mm f4 / Sony 15mm f1.4 / etc

When it comes to camera bodies though, you've got the Sony FX30 which is arguably "the best" APS-C body there is today for pro filmmaking. But what is there for photograhers??? There is only the Sony a6700 at the top of their ranks, it's certainly falling far short of being a truly pro body.  

If Sony is to take APS-C photographers seriously I'd say at the minimum they need to put an APS-C sensor inside an a7 series body. (although of course their dream would be an APS-C sensor in an a9 body, but doubtful that will happen)