Something is nagging at me to go back to smaller sensor

[IronFilm]

1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

When it comes to camera bodies though, you've got the Sony FX30 which is arguably "the best" APS-C body there is today for pro filmmaking. But what is there for photograhers??? There is only the Sony a6700 at the top of their ranks, it's certainly falling far short of being a truly pro body.  

If Sony is to take APS-C photographers seriously I'd say at the minimum they need to put an APS-C sensor inside an a7 series body. (although of course their dream would be an APS-C sensor in an a9 body, but doubtful that will happen)

Although then again, perhaps I could argue Sony has kinda abandoned pro APS-C filmmakers, just like APS-C photographers.

Where are the APS-C replacements for the FS5/FS7/F5/F55???? 

I really feel like "an FX60" (an FX6 with a FX30 sensor) is needed if Sony wishes to show they truly are committed to the workingman S35 videographer.

At the moment he only has these four options:

1) use an ancient camera, such as the FS7

2) use the prosumer grade FX30

3) stretch his budget to get a Sony FX9, then use it only in S35 mode

4) ditch Sony and jump to another brand (RED Komodo X? Blackmagic Design URSA Mini Pro? Canon C70?)

[Andrew Reid]

On 12/21/2024 at 6:15 AM, IronFilm said:

Although then again, perhaps I could argue Sony has kinda abandoned pro APS-C filmmakers, just like APS-C photographers.

Where are the APS-C replacements for the FS5/FS7/F5/F55????

You mean Super 35mm. It's not called APS-C in filmmaking.

Sony have not abandoned crop sensor customers... it's the other way round, customers abandoned Super 35mm.

There's been a big shift to full frame. Surely you have noticed this.

There's not really a very big Super 35mm range of E-mount lenses from Sony, it's all about the full frame cinema lenses now.

Also with a full frame camera you get both formats in one sensor. Has been this way since the a7r II.

There's no need to box yourself into one crop sensor format any more.

The FX30 was a very nice gift to people who still prefer Super 35mm, and wanted a lower-cost solution to FX3.

On 12/21/2024 at 6:15 AM, IronFilm said:

I really feel like "an FX60" (an FX6 with a FX30 sensor) is needed if Sony wishes to show they truly are committed to the workingman S35 videographer.

Just use a crop mode instead.

On 12/21/2024 at 6:15 AM, IronFilm said:

At the moment he only has these four options:

1) use an ancient camera, such as the FS7

2) use the prosumer grade FX30

3) stretch his budget to get a Sony FX9, then use it only in S35 mode

4) ditch Sony and jump to another brand (RED Komodo X? Blackmagic Design URSA Mini Pro? Canon C70?)

The FS7 II is still a current model.

https://pro.sony/en_UY/products/handheld-camcorders

FS5 II is still very capable as well.

A lot of those who need a crop sensor might be better off with a 1" camcorder anyway.

Canon C70 would also be a good option.

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

You mean Super 35mm. It's not called APS-C in filmmaking.

Sure, I know that, but also the terms are kinda interchangeable-ish, especially when talking about the low end of filmmaking such as FS5/FS7 cameras.

The majority of the lens I use myself on my FS7 would be marketed as APS-C not exclusively as S35.

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Sony have not abandoned crop sensor customers... it's the other way round, customers abandoned Super 35mm.

There's been a big shift to full frame. Surely you have noticed this.

Why use the photographer's terminology of FF rather than saying VV / LF? 

Same point here as with APS-C vs S35. The terminology is kinda-ish interchangeable, and we all know what each other means when one or another is used.

And in the professional world of filmmaking, then S35 is still reigning supreme. 

ARR 35 is the dominant preferred choice when possible. The older ARRI ALEXA Mini is still very popular. Even the Sony VENICE still gets very frequently used in S35 mode, to ensure compatibility with S35 lenses. And when it comes to RED, then I personally by far see the RED Komodo (or Komodo-X) used far more often than I see RED's VV cameras on set. 

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

There's not really a very big Super 35mm range of E-mount lenses from Sony, it's all about the full frame cinema lenses now.

Has Sony ever made any Super 35mm lenses?? 

Aside from their sadly discontinued PL mount lenses (a pity they discontinued them! Prior to the explosion of chinese PL lenses on the market, then the Sony PL lenses were the best value PL lens set you could buy. So I wish more of them were still being sold, so thus more of them would exist on eBay, and it would be easier for me to get more lenses to further build up my set), and discontinued 18mm-252mm, and their still current 18-110mm lens (which also gets branded as APS-C) then I don't think Sony has made any other lenses which are explicitly marketed as S35?

Sony simply has never been a big maker of cine lenses, in any format. (but yet, they've made more for S35 than they've made for VV/LF)

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

On 12/21/2024 at 7:15 PM, IronFilm said:

I really feel like "an FX60" (an FX6 with a FX30 sensor) is needed if Sony wishes to show they truly are committed to the workingman S35 videographer.

Just use a crop mode instead.

I wish! But then I can't shoot 4K with the FX6, if a S35 lens is being used. 

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

https://pro.sony/en_UY/products/handheld-camcorders

That's curious it's still listed there. Anyway, you can't buy a new in stock FS7mk2 from B&H, Adorama, AbelCine, CVP or anywhere else I tried to look. 

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

FS5 II is still very capable as well.

Image quality is kinda lacking by 2024 standards, can't even do 4K 10bit internally.

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

A lot of those who need a crop sensor might be better off with a 1" camcorder anyway.

While the likes of a Sony PXW-Z90 has some overlap with the FS5/FS7/FX30/"FX60" user, they really are quite different! (heck, these users also have some overlap with VENICE & ARRI 35 users. Doesn't mean one of these cameras are always an appropriate substitute for the other)

16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Canon C70 would also be a good option.

It's Canon, not Sony, further proving my point Sony has kinda abandoned the S35 / APS-C filmmaker. 

 

[Ninpo33]

On 12/22/2024 at 10:36 PM, IronFilm said:

Sure, I know that, but also the terms are kinda interchangeable-ish, especially when talking about the low end of filmmaking such as FS5/FS7 cameras.

The majority of the lens I use myself on my FS7 would be marketed as APS-C not exclusively as S35.

Why use the photographer's terminology of FF rather than saying VV / LF? 

Same point here as with APS-C vs S35. The terminology is kinda-ish interchangeable, and we all know what each other means when one or another is used.

And in the professional world of filmmaking, then S35 is still reigning supreme. 

ARR 35 is the dominant preferred choice when possible. The older ARRI ALEXA Mini is still very popular. Even the Sony VENICE still gets very frequently used in S35 mode, to ensure compatibility with S35 lenses. And when it comes to RED, then I personally by far see the RED Komodo (or Komodo-X) used far more often than I see RED's VV cameras on set. 

Has Sony ever made any Super 35mm lenses?? 

Aside from their sadly discontinued PL mount lenses (a pity they discontinued them! Prior to the explosion of chinese PL lenses on the market, then the Sony PL lenses were the best value PL lens set you could buy. So I wish more of them were still being sold, so thus more of them would exist on eBay, and it would be easier for me to get more lenses to further build up my set), and discontinued 18mm-252mm, and their still current 18-110mm lens (which also gets branded as APS-C) then I don't think Sony has made any other lenses which are explicitly marketed as S35?

Sony simply has never been a big maker of cine lenses, in any format. (but yet, they've made more for S35 than they've made for VV/LF)

I wish! But then I can't shoot 4K with the FX6, if a S35 lens is being used. 

That's curious it's still listed there. Anyway, you can't buy a new in stock FS7mk2 from B&H, Adorama, AbelCine, CVP or anywhere else I tried to look. 

Image quality is kinda lacking by 2024 standards, can't even do 4K 10bit internally.

While the likes of a Sony PXW-Z90 has some overlap with the FS5/FS7/FX30/"FX60" user, they really are quite different! (heck, these users also have some overlap with VENICE & ARRI 35 users. Doesn't mean one of these cameras are always an appropriate substitute for the other)

It's Canon, not Sony, further proving my point Sony has kinda abandoned the S35 / APS-C filmmaker. 

 

I think technology is just moving along and we’re able to do things now with sensor technology and processing that weren’t possible before. Fast enough read out speeds of a full frame sensor reducing rolling shutter and giving superior low light performance with low noise. As Andrew mentioned, you have a super 35 crop built into your FF sensor anyway now and things like “clear image zoom” on the consumer level Sony cameras for making use of all that realestate. 

Also, My friends at the rental house here in Hollywood say the Arri 35’s are sitting on the shelf. The Mini LF’s are rented out all day long along with the Alexa 65’s. They say it’s those two cameras on the high end and the FX6’s on the low end/doc work. That’s literally it. 

We also have to remember that these are companies that need to sell products so things are changing also based on a need to sell something new, to innovate. Why upgrade your 5 year old camera otherwise? I think FF is the sweet spot with all the glass that is out there from years of 35mm photography as well as form factor, light gathering, shallow dof if desired.. the new little fixed lens rangefinder GFX camera that’s rumored to be coming out soon has a 100mp MF sensor. Designs show a little zoom rocker switch to change crop modes/punch in. Huge sensor with a wide angle lens but the ability to have whatever you want in camera or in post. I think that’s where we’re headed. 

[MrSMW]

8 minutes ago, Ninpo33 said:

the new little fixed lens rangefinder GFX camera that’s rumored to be coming out soon has a 100mp MF sensor

WHAT??!!  Take my money 🤑

Well, as long as it has 65:24 X Pan crop mode, digital zoom and at least an f2.8 FF equivalent lens (an f2 40mm would be perfect thanks Fuji), IBIS (plus not a dealbreaker but ideally a flip out screen like the A7RV).

[Ninpo33]

5 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

WHAT??!!  Take my money 🤑

Well, as long as it has 65:24 X Pan crop mode, digital zoom and at least an f2.8 FF equivalent lens (an f2 40mm would be perfect thanks Fuji), IBIS (plus not a dealbreaker but ideally a flip out screen like the A7RV).

https://www.canonrumors.com/need-a-point-shoot-fujifilm-to-bring-a-fixed-lens-100mp-gfx-rangefinder-style-camera-in-2025/
 

I wish they could have been able to get faster lens in there but it’s already going to be quite the engineering feat at that size. 

[MrSMW]

OK, just looked it up on Fuji Rumors and because no IBIS and estimated cost, TBH, a used 100S with a pair of primes makes more sense at the likely price!

So maybe not...

 

[MrSMW]

2 minutes ago, Ninpo33 said:

I wish they could have been able to get faster lens in there but it’s already going to be quite the engineering feat at that size. 

Yes. That and the lack of IBIS.

Makes zero sense against a used 100S and say the 45mm f2.8 + 80mm f1.7 (or 110 I think it is?)

[eatstoomuchjam]

If you really want small, go with the Fringer adapter and the Canon 40/2.8 pancake.  The Fujinon 45 is pretty big.  The 80/1.7 has its fans, but for me, it never clicked or felt good.  It's a technically competent lens, but I just never liked the images I took with it.  It's the only Fujinon lens that I sold (though I returned the 100-200/5.6 within the return window, but that's was only because it ended up too big for the trip I was taking (and for its size, I might as well just bring the EF 100-400L)).  The 110/2, on the other hand, is truly gorgeous.  Some would say that it's the best reason to get into the GF system.

On the other hand...

5 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

Also, My friends at the rental house here in Hollywood say the Arri 35’s are sitting on the shelf. The Mini LF’s are rented out all day long along with the Alexa 65’s. They say it’s those two cameras on the high end and the FX6’s on the low end/doc work. That’s literally it. 

One can hope that means that rental rates on the Arri 35 will drop a lot and/or that they'll start hitting the used market for $10k or less.  😉

[IronFilm]

On 12/25/2024 at 12:12 AM, Ninpo33 said:

you have a super 35 crop built into your FF sensor anyway now and things like “clear image zoom” on the consumer level Sony cameras for making use of all that realestate. 

Not much point having a S35 mode for a VV/LF 4K sensor if you want to shoot 4K S35, as it's impossible.

On 12/25/2024 at 12:12 AM, Ninpo33 said:

The Mini LF’s are rented out all day long along with the Alexa 65’s. They say it’s those two cameras on the high end and the FX6’s on the low end/doc work. 

That's not what I'm seeing, I haven't worked on a production with a Mini LF in a while. ARRI 35 are far more problem. I think most people saw the Mini LF has stop gap measure that ARRI had to rush out so they could shoot "true 4K" (not upscaled 4K such as the AMIRA or Mini did), a demand that numerous productions (such as Netflix) insisted upon. 

Of course once the ARRI 35 came out then that both solved the native 4K issue and gave the shooter a better camera as well.

20 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

One can hope that means that rental rates on the Arri 35 will drop a lot and/or that they'll start hitting the used market for $10k or less.  😉

Doubt we'll see that happening within the next decade.

[Ninpo33]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Not much point having a S35 mode for a VV/LF 4K sensor if you want to shoot 4K S35, as it's impossible.

Who said anything about 4k? I said full frame. (And yes Full Frame because I’m not talking about cinema cameras I’m mostly talking about Mirrorless cameras used for video)

My buddy runs a large rental house in LA so I’m just passing along what he told me last week. He works with Apple on a lot of their shows and some other big studios. Alexa 35 is not renting well or the Canon C400. He ended up selling the C400’s to buy more Fx6’s 

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

Who said anything about 4k? I said full frame.

Using the S35 mode of the FX6 was the first reference to using FF cameras with the S35 mode in this thread, and I thus replied how that can't be done if you wish to film in 4K. 

6 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

He ended up selling the C400’s to buy more Fx6’s 

I think that's more a comment on the dominance of Sony, and how Canon has lost the top spot in the low/mid market. (after all both the C400 and FX6 are VV/LF/FF cameras)