$2300 Leica SL2 for hybrid work, pros and cons

[Andrew Reid]

17 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Should Leica have done anything at all?

https://petapixel.com/2022/07/08/2021-was-leicas-best-financial-year-ever/

Last year, they had almost a half billion dollars in revenue and increased their profits by 16% over the year before.  Seems like they're going the opposite direction from Olympus.  Operating a high-profit luxury brand seems to be working about as well for Leica as it has for the last 70+ years.  If inflation gets too bad or the economy crashes, though, so that people have less money to spend on high-end gear, my guess is that's what would inspire a fire sale for the brand.

Coke is profitable, that's just sugar in water. Leica are a very small fish compared to bottled sugar.

It's a vulnerable position, one change in the wind and it's dead. 80% of their customers are fickle. The other 20% are hardcore photographers who understand that the product isn't just a fashion symbol.

[Andrew Reid]

14 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Leica exist in their own bubble.

They are an odd one in that along with Hasselblad, they are priced above most ordinary folks means. Or you have to be otherwise extremely keen.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Hasselblad, as at the moment they are a phone badge and a DJI subsidiary more than they are a medium format camera maker.

14 hours ago, MrSMW said:

But they also put their name to cheap rebranded lower end stuff.

I think they are one of those companies like Porsche that are better off not trying to compete at the mid or lower levels and instead, remain in their niche.

Lumix I am adamant though has mostly been a case of poor marketing.

They seem to be one of those companies who score hits from time to time and then never capitalise on it.

Yes the occasional hit, but never more than about 5% market share which considering the hits is quite bad.

- First mirrorless lens mount in the digital era (non-rangefinder)

- First mirrorless camera (if you don't count rangefinders)

- First hybrid camera

- First affordable 4K mirrorless camera (GH4)

- First to Mini DV

- First with 10bit on a mainstream mirrorless camera (outside of Blackmagic niche)

- With Leica and the original SL, only the second full frame mirrorless camera system after Sony a7

- Generally very good value for money

So add it all up and you get jack shit thanks to Mr Marketing Geniuses with their MBAs.

14 hours ago, MrSMW said:

When the GH4 came out, my brother was the video side of my business and we were all over that marvel, but then years until the GH5 and it’s minor updates.

S5 came out and other than the lack of PDAF, a great bit of kit, but no real fanfare.

The S1 trilogy were and still are, great bits of kit, but to most, they went a bit too large on the bodies, but to have zero official sign from them of any follow up is IMO, just insane. If something is coming. If not, probably understandable and their goose is cooked.

Too big, too fugly, too heavy, wrong AF system, and too long left on the shelf with no evolution in sight.

They better have something proper special coming in 2025 or it's game over.

14 hours ago, MrSMW said:

This next announcement really is the final straw for me with them…

If there is no official announcement of something relatively substantial such as a new S camera, then they are not a company I can have any further faith or investment in.

I run a business. I have business needs. I have zero interest in partnering with lame ducks.

I agree wholeheartedly.

14 hours ago, MrSMW said:

The bottom line for me is other than the S5ii, they do not have the tools I want and need for 2025 and going forward.

Loved my S1H and for its time, it was great, but was always a compromise for my needs. Even more so now to the point where I would deliberately be making a conscious choice of compromise if I chose to work with it today.

S1R delivered great results for stills and is borderline arguable something I could still make work. And they are stupidly cheap now.

But I would like a system that can do it all and the reality is no one quite does for my specific needs.

It’s between Sony, Nikon and Lumix for different reasons but not a single one of them meets my needs.

Very happy with the tools I have, but those tools are 1x Sony, 1x Nikon and 1x Lumix and whoever gets their first with the system that does it all within one brand, will get my loyalty and therefore, my $£€.

It will be a very sad day if Panasonic call it quits but the way it is going, they may be forced into it.

Panasonic are a good company. The overall bosses have given the camera division a lot of leeway and time, the engineers themselves have been superb... marvellous... especially firmware and featureset... the problem lies purely in the product planning and marketing.

[IronFilm]

On 12/13/2024 at 9:48 PM, Ninpo33 said:

Secondly, if you made it “a thing” and clients notice the Leica badge you could actually give your business a slight edge in prestige and use that to your advantage. I know it’s a Panasonic with some slight tweaks but most people simply know the brand name.

Panasonic S1R + leather body case / grip +  Leica badge & red dot from Aliexpress/eBay + glue = "Leica camera"? 😉 

On 12/14/2024 at 3:48 AM, eatstoomuchjam said:

Keep in mind, in terms of "prestige" with clients, Leica don't seem to be super famous among the general non-camera nerd population.  I'm sure it varies by market, but I can say that on a number of the shoots that I go on, when I take out my Leica M glass and say things like "we're going to shoot with Leica glass," people are often like "Oh, that's nice."  On the other hand, I take out the CN-E and people are like "Ohhh, those are really nice lenses!"  Which, they are, but could also be described as the same optics as equivalent still lenses, but with focus rings and maybe different coatings. 

True. Those CN-E lens simply "look professional" with their cine design. Even though CN-E are kinda "budget" cine lens. 

A person could even be shooting on even cheaper DZOFilm VESPID lenses and you'll get that better reaction (with non-gear nerds) than if you're shooting on far more expensive Leica M glass / Canon L Series / Nikkor Gold Ring / Sony G Master / etc lens. 

Average people don't recognize brands but they do recognize "that's not a normal still photography lens". 

On 12/14/2024 at 3:48 AM, eatstoomuchjam said:

Take out the GFX 100 II?  "Oh, I thought you'd use full frame, not APS-C." "Uh, this is medium format, bigger than full frame." "Hmm. OK."  Take out the Komodo (which is S35)?  "Whoa! Is that a Red?"

Anyway. At least for a video shoot, if you want to impress a normie, you probably want to break out Red or Arri - with honorable mention for Sony...  and within the Sony ecosystem, they are almost equally unlikely to be aware of the difference between, for instance, FX6 and Burano.

Bingo, and just like they won't be able to tell apart Sony cameras, they can't tell apart generations of ARRI or RED either. Having a RED Scarlet X will impress a normie just as much as a RED Komodo X or even a RED V-RAPTOR XL.

 

On 12/14/2024 at 6:54 AM, Django said:

Oh I agree, I was thinking more about the photography world. Also depends on the scene, here in the EU Leica is pretty well known, especially in the art/music scene. That's where I mainly see Fujis & Leicas. Art galleries, concert halls, red carpet events etc. It's why I said its niche! But beyond the prestige/hype I really do like Leica products and color science.

True, a normie in the arts scenes will be far more likely to recoginize the Leica brand name even though the rest of their photographic knowledge will be quite similar to the average normie (i.e. won't even know what an f-stop is). 

On 12/14/2024 at 6:54 AM, Django said:

For pure video work, the FX line is everywhere around me. Will probably upgrade my FS7 soon to an FX something just because it gets you work. It's rather annoying because Sony is my least favourite brand and I find them trailing behind as a result of being number one (a bit like Canon back in the day) but so it is. 

So true, when it comes to the commercial aspects of filmmaking, then it's pretty hard to choose anything else than a Sony FS7 / FX6 / FX9 from a purely business perspective. They're the in demand swiss army knife of video productions. And only if you're much higher end and/or more niche, then does anything else become  easily much more compelling. 

On 12/15/2024 at 5:33 PM, MrSMW said:

Lumix I am adamant though has mostly been a case of poor marketing.

They seem to be one of those companies who score hits from time to time and then never capitalise on it.

When the GH4 came out, my brother was the video side of my business and we were all over that marvel, but then years until the GH5 and it’s minor updates.

I think the true screw up was the lack of cooperation/coordination (worse than that... they were enemies!) between the consumer and the professional sides of the business. 

After the smash hit of the GH4 that was the perfect timing to release the "Panasonic AF200" (an updated AF100, but with the guts of a GH4 inside it, rather than a GH1 inside it like the Af100 was, which by the time the GH4 launched then the AF100 was very old)

Imagine how good an EVA1 MFT or DVX200 MFT could have been! Would've made the loooong wait for a GH6 much less traumatic. (especially if there were even updates from the pro division, such as an EVA2 MFT or DVX300 MFT or AF300)

Or even if they were simply speedier/better in the release of their box style cameras, what if the Panasonic BGH1 got released immediately when the GH4 was (or say only six months after?), and imagine if it had a zero delay SDI output and 10bit internal. Sure it would at such a point have had the GH4 sensor, not the GH5 sensor, but it would have served as a very appealing upgrade option for the GH4 owners, while they wait for a GH5. Then "the Panasonic BGH2" (with the GH5 sensor), could have / should have given us built in NDs. 

 

[Pepe]

On 12/9/2024 at 9:54 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Just some impressions...

Second time out with an SL2, last time was in early 2020. Terrible things followed. Let's hope I haven't just cursed myself with the second coming 🙂

So it has had a lot of firmware updates, but some things remain the same... The 5K open gate mode has some mojo, like the camera it was based on (Panasonic S1R)

Take a look at this footage early in the video of his family...if you didn't know you'd think that was actually a reel of film.

I know he's done quite a bit to it in post but still... That is crazy filmic.

Second thing which sold me on it was the price...

I think 2300 euros is fair. In today's market we can get 8K and 4K/120p for this with the second hand EOS R5 bless his overheating heart.

So this is 4K/60p full frame 10bit LOG H.265, 5K open gate, 1080p goes up to 180fps... And best of all it isn't a fucking Canon.

The second hand market with these sorts of prices has to make you think twice about buying new stuff especially if it is $3-6k doesn't it?

The UHD 4K is pixel binned in 24p and 60p, there is a very small 1.1x crop of sides, it does however look very clean and detailed, you'll only notice a difference to oversampled 4K from 6K on a test chart really. DCI 4K mode there is no crop, goes edge to edge of full sensor width.

The in-camera LUT view assist works well, and has a few built in pre-sets as well from Leica like Classic and Natural. There are 3 slots for your own .cube files. You cannot bake a LUT into the recording, it's only for display.

In stills mode autofocus is very very fast when it works, just not as reliable as phase-detect obviously, and in video mode it is neither fast or reliable 🙂

EVF is immense.

Entering video mode is a single button tap. Like Samsung NX1. A great and minimal way to quickly toggle between photos and videos.

It has USB charging, full size HDMI, dual card slots

Now the not so great stuff...

A tad on the heavy side, but not as chonky as S1H.

No articulated screen... The main downside where video is concerned.

No phase-detect.

Could benefit from a few more function buttons.

5K Open gate is a Super 35mm crop

L-mount lacks a few exotic adapters like the Techart Leica M Autofocus beasty which I have for Sony

But biggest downside is the dilemma of choice at $2000... the market is ridiculous. So much going on now at this price region...

There is the Nikon Z6 III which obviously has better specs where video is concerned, the only question is whether you need the higher numbers or not. The EOS R5 is also better specced for used price of $2000-25000... Fuji GFX 100S can be had also for around $2.7k now if you want 2019's $10k medium format camera in a smaller, more compact form. Absolute steal. And of course the Nikon Zf will do a lot of things right for a lot of folk. Panasonic S5 II / S9 as well.

None of them have quite the same magic feel when shooting though as the SL2

can someone explain the difference in color science between the Leica SL2, the SL2S, and the S1R?

That footage on the video looks really nice. Can the SL2S sensor footage be graded with same results?

Anyone?

Cheers

[Ninpo33]

On 1/18/2025 at 6:39 AM, Pepe said:

can someone explain the difference in color science between the Leica SL2, the SL2S, and the S1R?

That footage on the video looks really nice. Can the SL2S sensor footage be graded with same results?

Anyone?

Cheers

You just need to go through the spec sheet for each. Beyond the stuff on paper, the main big difference for me is that there is no Log profile for the S1R. Many people have good results with HLG and Flat profiles with the Panasonic however. There is an L-Log profile on both Leica's. Next will be what modes you want to use and if there is 10 bit color for that mode. Beyond that, there is the subtle difference between the way Leica and Panasonic choose to "tune" the sensor. Many people really like the mojo of the Leica, myself included. I'm not a fan of the SL2-S because it really is pretty gimped for the price tag and you are around the image quality of my $535 Lumix S5 o.g. But even the lowly S5 shoots 6k RAW to the Atomos Ninja V and has anamorphic modes. The SL2 at least does 47mp stills and 5k. Full Frame 60p etc... If I had the money I would go 

1. SL3-S for A-Cam

2. SL2 for B-Cam

3. Q3 for C-Cam (but probably a Lumix S9 really)

 

I found a great video that was helpful for me to be able to see some subtle differences between the S1R and SL2, let me see if I can find it.

 

 

[fuzzynormal]

f me.  I'm over here shooting a doc with an EM10iii I bought used for $300 and thinking, "Dang, this looks pretty good!"

 

And yet now I want an SL2.

 

Damn you all.