What is Lumix thinking?!

[newfoundmass]

 

4 hours ago, John Matthews said:

After reading all of what people are complaining about, I guess Panasonic should just focus on hardware, not firmware. Release it and forget it, right (à la Sony)? Rather, Panasonic has made meaningful efforts in firmware fixes. The S5ii when it was released is not the same camera as the current one. Not many of us are talking about that.

I don't think people are asking to do away with the firmware updates in exchange for more frequent camera releases. 6 years is a long time though in-between camera updates especially without any communication with your userbase about what comes next. I get why early adopters would feel a bit nervous. 

 

[John Matthews]

8 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't think people are asking to do away with the firmware updates in exchange for more frequent camera releases.

Question: Would you rather have significant, software-based firmware updates to add to existing hardware(option 1) or incremental updates to hardware with fewer software features (option 2)? Of course you want both, but if you were given the choice only. Option 2 will definitely cost more as well. You mention 6 years as being too long. What about 4 years? What is too often?

[newfoundmass]

31 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

Question: Would you rather have significant, software-based firmware updates to add to existing hardware(option 1) or incremental updates to hardware with fewer software features (option 2)? Of course you want both, but if you were given the choice only. Option 2 will definitely cost more as well. You mention 6 years as being too long. What about 4 years? What is too often?

I don't think you have to choose one or the other, but regardless, the issue is that if they DO need to choose one or the other they should communicate that to their userbase. Instead there's silence. 

If your userbase feels abandoned as some S1/S1R/S1H users obviously do, you should probably do something about that, especially if you're the #4 or #5 camera company that can't really afford to lose users. 

[Andrew Reid]

21 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

The Nikon Z6 came out in 2018, and the S1 in 2019. Z6 III released this year, so if a Panasonic camera comes out with a similar sensor, then next year will have the same latency in terms of time-to-new-sensor.

Not really the same latency at all.

The Nikon Z9 came out in early 2022 with stacked sensor tech, 8K RAW and high resolution. We are now nearly in 2025 and Panasonic has no answer.

Canon released the original EOS R in 2018 and followed up just 2 years later with the EOS R5 in 2020, with what is still even today one of the best next gen sensors in terms of fast readout speed, 8K with no crop, 4K/120p and oversampled 4K from 8K, the specs are on par with the best stacked sensors from Sony and Nikon.

In 2021 Sony came out with the a1, again a next gen sensor. The a7s III also has a next gen stacked sensor, and came out even earlier.

So no, Nikon did not leave the shelves filled with old sensor tech for 6 years like Panasonic have. Different latency. And remember the S1H was nearly $4k when it came out in 2019... With a sensor from 2017 similar to the basic a7 III, yet worse without PDAF. So you could say that the S1H as a flagship, although I like it very much, is fucking ancient in sensor terms...

The bottom line is that no other camera manufacturer has a current flagship model with a 7 year old sensor in it from a mid-range system camera, and contrast defect AF.

Fuji X-H2 is a 40MP 8K next gen sensor, and X-H2S is stacked.

Canon EOS R5, R5 II, R5 C... all flagships with latest sensor tech and have been on sale for 4 years in case of the original models!

Even god damn OM have a stacked sensor!

And they are a zombie manufacturer!

Nikon has the Z8, Z9 flagship sensor tech.

Sony we know.

Pentax and Panasonic are the only ones who can't seem to be bothered to utilise the latest Sony sensor technology for profit $$$

Pentax because their customers don't really need it and Rioch themselves would rather do a DSLR like it's the 1990s or something.

And Panasonic because they are completely revising or scrapping their S series above the S5 and entry level.

Or it's a prelude to a complete stop.

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

If your userbase feels abandoned as some S1/S1R/S1H users obviously do, you should probably do something about that, especially if you're the #4 or #5 camera company that can't really afford to lose users. 

Exactly.

I don't understand the paranoia at Panasonic about future plans. Why hide. What will Canon do? Act like "Oh no" Panasonic is coming out with a new S1 Mark II, we better abandon our plans and react in case Lumix overtakes us, and copy their niche camera which is on 0.01% market share!

LOL!

Just fucking communicate with your customers and reassure them that it'll be worth waiting for, tease the new direction and roadmap, make people think twice about jumping ship or buying that new Nikon Z6 III... DO Something!

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, hoodlum said:

The GH6 had one of the shortest shelf life for a GH body.

Sometimes I even forget it got released. I guess the GH5 was such a strong release, but when the GH6 got released there were so many other great cameras being released that it got a bit lost. 

6 hours ago, John Matthews said:

As I said earlier, I believe the release of the G97 basically puts a nail in the coffin of a mid-ranged M43 camera for at least 2 years. They've just spent their time coming out with a G97; they aren't going to get people to buy that only to come out immediately after with an upgrade.

Agreed, they've got their flagship G9mk2 / GH7 and their lower end G97. I doubt they'll squeeze anything in between those or below the G97 (with "a DSLR-ish style body") in the next couple of years. 

Their next MFT hybrid/stills release will be either an eventual update to their flagships, or maybe finally an update to their "rangefinder style bodies" (GX / GM / GF series). 

 

[Andrew Reid]

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I don't think it had in that they've been releasing a GH line camera every 1 to 2 years since 2009, if you count the GH5s as a "real" GH camera.

The GH6 did have a short life.

They have not been releasing a GH camera every 1-2 years since 2009.

Up to GH4 it was a regular cycle, but then was a larger gap of 3 years to the GH5, and then between GH5S and GH6 of 4 years (5 if you don't count GH5S as a 'normal' release - more it was aimed at bigger productions, not so much the usual consumers, with the removal of IBIS for example being very good when it's rigged up on Top Gear or the Grand Tour episodes and a low light boost much in demand too.

GH6 has had the worst depreciation of all the GH cameras, 2022 release a year later in 2023 halved in value already second hand ($2k to $1K) and then boom the GH7, and it's now worth only $750... so early adopters of the GH6 have had it pretty damn rough.

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

After reading all of what people are complaining about, I guess Panasonic should just focus on hardware, not firmware.

I don't follow the logic of that!

You need to do both.

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Release it and forget it, right (à la Sony)? Rather, Panasonic has made meaningful efforts in firmware fixes. The S5ii when it was released is not the same camera as the current one.

This is pretty normal, you can say that about any camera today...

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Really, people have their ass chapped because there's no high-end production camera (something I don't care about).

Again sorry to disagree but this simply isn't the case, there's no high-end camera full stop since the last decade and we're now half way through the next one. This is a long time for enthusiast Lumix photographers to wait for a new $3k flagship like the S1R Mark II isn't it? So it's not just the high-end production people who are waiting, and the S1H II has more broad appeal than just pros.

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

 I think we can agree that Arri-anything won't be in it.

Eh?

Why? They clearly have a licensing agreement already, for the GH7 and no logic or evidence to suggest future cameras above the GH7's positioning won't get the same.

The question is will the even be the next cameras.

[Andrew Reid]

On 12/17/2024 at 5:54 PM, mercer said:

Panasonic... S5iiX ($1999) vs GH7 ($2199). Full frame vs M4/3. The only other main difference is that the GH7 has internal ProRes Raw and 32bit float audio with the XLR handle and CF Express cards.

Full width 4k 120p is a major difference of GH7 to S5 II X.

It's a much faster sensor.

It also has the dual readout circuit ala ALEXA in the High Dynamic Range mode.

And it is an improved, new sensor vs GH6 with new processor.

The S5II X has a lot of cropping going on the full sensor width to do anything higher than 30fps.

Also I think the EVF is better on the GH7?

So still a lot of advantages but people want full frame and can get it cheap, so that's what's hurting the GH7 the most rather than any defects in the spec sheet.

On 12/17/2024 at 5:54 PM, mercer said:

That's not nothing but does it justify the GH7 costing $200 more? I guess you could argue that the GH7 is the flagship and the iix is not and I suppose the iix has been out for about a year longer.

The S5II X is an odd one, it's not flagship material, it's an S5 II with a better ProRes license. They chose to split the cameras into two models to avoid having to pay Apple for what basic S5 II owners and photographers weren't using.

The GH7 is the flagship in Micro Four Thirds mount.

The S1H II would be the flagship if we're talking L-mount but of course it appears to be AWOL.

On 12/17/2024 at 5:54 PM, mercer said:

But even still? Maybe it's time that they consolidate their camera lines a little. Does Panasonic really need an S5ii and an S5iiX... released at the same time?

They would have had to decrease the profit margin or up-the-price on the S5 II had they not done this, for the ProRes licensing reasons mentioned earlier.

On 12/17/2024 at 5:54 PM, mercer said:

But I guess they know what they're doing... nickel and diming their sub-$2500 enthusiast customers generates a bunch of profits with the upsells.

You can hardly accuse Panasonic of being bad value for money sub $2500 my friend.

[Andrew Reid]

10 hours ago, hoodlum said:

Panasonic's biggest mistake was not introducing PDAF with FF from the very beginning in 2019.  Then they could have rolled out PDAF to updated m43 bodies.  Instead we still had the GH6 introduced in 2022 without PDAF and other missteps, which required the GH7 to fix just 2 years later.  The GH6 had one of the shortest shelf life for a GH body.

The last 5 years was a great missed opportunity for Panasonic from a marketing perspective.

Yes huge mistake, especially combined with the introduction of such large, expensive S lenses for L-mount. They were asking photographers and filmmakers to make heavy investments, replacing what they already had with something worse basically - at least in terms of worse autofocus.

Canon EF users were not suddenly going to all run out and downgrade to an L-mount lens with contrast detect AF!

It's a terrible decision by Panasonic. Something which could have killed their more serious ambitions in the photography market.

In video terms, it also sank their lens range. AF is a must now. It has to be reliable and dependable in video mode.

If anything, it works even worse in video mode on Panasonic's CDAF cameras than in photo!

And this is the other mistake... for a brand with such a video following to fail so badly a video autofocus.

The S5 II is still not quite there... Even though it's PDAF, it's way behind the latest Sony models.

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Exactly.

I don't understand the paranoia at Panasonic about future plans. Why hide. What will Canon do? Act like "Oh no" Panasonic is coming out with a new S1 Mark II, we better abandon our plans and react in case Lumix overtakes us, and copy their niche camera which is on 0.01% market share!

LOL!

Just fucking communicate with your customers and reassure them that it'll be worth waiting for, tease the new direction and roadmap, make people think twice about jumping ship or buying that new Nikon Z6 III... DO Something!

This.

A big part is these businesses are just stuck in their ways. They don't take risks and there is no sense of urgency, even when they're in last place and showing minimal growth. 

There's no attempt to radically change up how marketing is done and they put no effort into directly reaching out to their community. The biggest change any of these companies have made is to include influencers and "content creators" with the press who get review units and are flown out on exotic trips, but that's not much different than what they've been doing for the last 60 years anyway. 

They should have representatives in every major Facebook group, every major video/photography forum, etc. Interacting with users every day. 

If/when a S1H replacement comes out, give a really talented filmmaker a budget for a short narrative film with the only limitation being they have to use the Panny camera and lenses. Then document it and release it as a series. 

Give a camera to a sports video shooter and document their use of it. A music video shooter. A news reporter. A TikToker. A High School A/V class. Just show the world what your cameras and lenses are capable of! That'd all be a lot more useful than the typical boring short doc or a video of a photoshoot in the deserts of Morocco that they usually put out. 

These ideas aren't even that radical. Some are ideas they've scratched the surface of but haven't fully explored. There's just so much more they could be doing but they don't. 

[Ninpo33]

On 12/17/2024 at 9:54 AM, mercer said:

Does Panasonic really need an S5ii and an S5iiX... released at the same time?

But I guess they know what they're doing... nickel and diming their sub-$2500 enthusiast customers generates a bunch of profits with the upsells.

The extra features on the S5iiX are awesome. Recording to SSD is a breeze and ProRes without needing an external recorder is really nice. Not everyone needs that so it’s nice that it’s a slight upgrade for a nominal fee. I wouldn’t call it nickel and diming though. If anything it probably just covers the licensing fees LOL. 

[Ninpo33]

https://leicarumors.com/2024/10/03/new-leica-sl3-s-camera-rumored-to-be-announced-in-a-few-months.aspx/amp/
 

New SL3-S rumored. This better not be a rebadged S5ii. Really strange that we haven’t heard about any of the Lumix equivalents. 

[John Matthews]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Their next MFT hybrid/stills release will be either an eventual update to their flagships, or maybe finally an update to their "rangefinder style bodies" (GX / GM / GF series). 

Let's hope they can pull that off. I'd probably get it if it has modern features. If there's only a USB-C jack, forget it.

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

GH6 has had the worst depreciation of all the GH cameras, 2022 release a year later in 2023 halved in value already second hand ($2k to $1K) and then boom the GH7, and it's now worth only $750... so early adopters of the GH6 have had it pretty damn rough.

That's exaggerated. Most of the sales were on huge discounts as new. You'd get easily for 1200 euros 2 years ago. Now it's just shy of 1000 euros. Granted, it took a massive hit when it came out because nobody was going to pay for that camera if it didn't have PDAF. If it does hit 700 euros, I'll pick it up again I think. I really liked using it when I had it. It feels better in my hand than most cameras I've owned.

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

You need to do both.

OK. What if you don't have the resources? Clearly, one has priority. Look how long it took, if ever Sony to make updates to some updates. People were livid. Didn't happen with Panasonic. Look at Fuji, they screwed up their AF in trying to fix it. Not Panasonic. More cameras, more problems.

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Again sorry to disagree but this simply isn't the case, there's no high-end camera full stop since the last decade and we're now half way through the next one. This is a long time for enthusiast Lumix photographers to wait for a new $3k flagship like the S1R Mark II isn't it? So it's not just the high-end production people who are waiting, and the S1H II has more broad appeal than just pros.

I meant flagship hybrid.

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Why? They clearly have a licensing agreement already, for the GH7 and no logic or evidence to suggest future cameras above the GH7's positioning won't get the same.

Are we taking bets? No Arri Log in FF Panasonic cameras like the deal in the GH6 and GH7. I'll take that bet.

I do think it would be a smart move for short-term cash for Arri, but the exclusiveness behind "Arri colors" would be diminished. I hope I'm wrong because I like those Arri LUTs and for them to be tuned for Panasonic cameras, it would increase Panasonic's credentials I imagine.

[MrSMW]

14 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Still, I'd love to know exactly how you think the features will be that much better than the current models for pros. Better build? 12k, 8k? 4k 120fps? 32bit float? Internal RAW? Arri log? Which will most disappoint if it's not there? I get the feeling people just want GH7-level features in a FF body? I think we can agree that Arri-anything won't be in it.

S1H level of build quality as a minimum including damped shutter button.

Rear screen a la S1H.

High res rear screen, unlike the S5ii which is ‘average’.

Better AF than the S5ii which is ‘decent’ but no more than that.

Full 6k 50/60p.

60mp for stills for both detail and ability to crop.

Available March 2025 latest.

S2H and S2R or one single camera, I don’t mind but they would have my money instantly. Rather than Nikon or Sony who almost certainly otherwise will.

Bonuses, but not deal-breakers for me would be:

Internal raw

Some kind of ‘colour by Arri’ match up like Nikon/RED. That would really put LUMIX on the filmmakers map at least.

Options that aren’t just fucking black! I mean I probably would go with black when it came to it, but a series of classy colours would give the thing more appeal to a wider demographic simply by having the option. But keep the colours the same as other models such as the S9 etc so folks can match their kit.

 

[John Matthews]

13 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

S1H level of build quality as a minimum including damped shutter button.

Rear screen a la S1H.

High res rear screen, unlike the S5ii which is ‘average’.

Better AF than the S5ii which is ‘decent’ but no more than that.

Full 6k 50/60p.

60mp for stills for both detail and ability to crop.

Available March 2025 latest.

S2H and S2R or one single camera, I don’t mind but they would have my money instantly. Rather than Nikon or Sony who almost certainly otherwise will.

Bonuses, but not deal-breakers for me would be:

Internal raw

Some kind of ‘colour by Arri’ match up like Nikon/RED. That would really put LUMIX on the filmmakers map at least.

Options that aren’t just fucking black! I mean I probably would go with black when it came to it, but a series of classy colours would give the thing more appeal to a wider demographic simply by having the option. But keep the colours the same as other models such as the S9 etc so folks can match their kit.

 

All of that would sound great! Not a camera for me, but sounds awesome! Of those feature, the one that would interest me the most would be the rear screen and maybe the 6k features, for avoiding moiré.

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

All of that would sound great!

All of that is pretty much the S1H with the sensor from the SL3.

Job done!

[ND64]

11 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

They don't take risks and there is no sense of urgency, even when they're in last place and showing minimal growth. 

Taking risk is riskier for smaller player. Look at the internet backlash against Z6III new sensor problems. Nikon might sell fewer than it expected because of that, but the volume of this all arounder is enough to absorb the lost sales. With smaller volume, you have to be sure nobody will complain. I'm not saying they should be conservative, I'm saying maybe they couldn't find a trouble free sensor with the price they can afford. Maybe A1 sensor isn't for sale, or Sony's charging too much.

[Andrew Reid]

8 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Rear screen a la S1H.

You really want the Sony a7r V rear screen instead, it's much nicer designed 🙂

8 hours ago, MrSMW said:

High res rear screen, unlike the S5ii which is ‘average’.

3.5" would be good wouldn't it? Very brave to break out of that 3.2" maximum!

8 hours ago, MrSMW said:

S2H and S2R or one single camera, I don’t mind but they would have my money instantly. Rather than Nikon or Sony who almost certainly otherwise will.

So the old way of doing cameras was when Sony did:

a7r for resolution

a7 for basic model

a7s for video and low light

Now the thing is, resolution and speed can be done in one body = flagship a1

Video and low light are handled very well by the basic model = 24 megapixel stuff

So they now really only need to do a high res flagship, and a basic model.

No need for another s1r, s1... And on Sony side, arguably no need for another a7s camera now a1 and a9 III exist.

Make the s5 series the basic model

Make the s1h II the flagship high resolution fast 8K video and stills flagship.

Sorted with just two cameras!

Everyone happy.

We can stop moaning.

Lumix can profit $$$

[MrSMW]

57 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

You really want the Sony a7r V rear screen instead, it's much nicer designed

Agreed. Sold the S1H to find the A7RV.

58 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Now the thing is, resolution and speed can be done in one body = flagship a1

Video and low light are handled very well by the basic model = 24 megapixel stuff

That is what I would also rather see; a 60mp and a 24mp model.

Pretty much an instant sale for (to) me.

[Ninpo33]

While waiting for new Lumix stuff I’ve decided to enjoy how cheap 2020 technology is getting…
 

My $535 original S5 arrived from The Yahoo Japan Auction this week and I’m finally getting to put my Minolta AF set of lenses to good use with a new adapter. These lenses are still under most people’s radar because of the autofocus but they are a steal for the optics. The end days of Minolta and A mount so right before Sony bought them and used a lot of their lens designs on the first Alpha bodies.
 

The set of 

20 f/2.8, 28 f/2, 35 f/1.4, 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.4 and 100 f/2

rival the Canon FD’s for a fraction of the cost. The 35mm actually gets sold up to $1,500 these days because the rehoused FD’s had no 1.4 option. You can find it for under $500 if you are patient however. 

so $535 for the camera and $250 for a Ninja V and I’ve got 5.89k ProRes raw, 3.5k Anamorphic and the original S5 processor and nice organic sensor unlike the newer S5ii Not bad…

Now to find an S1R for under $1k that’s not a scam…