What is Lumix thinking?!

[John Matthews]

7 hours ago, Davide DB said:

 

Any question about upcoming release? (The elephant in the room)

Nope. Those questions were all deflected like water on wax.

On other news. You now can pay for framing guide from Canon to the tune of $120. Oh yeah, you have to send your camera in too (and pay for shipping). Tell me, are there any companies that offer that offer framing guides when you buy the camera?

[eatstoomuchjam]

When I read about the Canon frame guide cost, I figured there was probably a business opportunity for somebody who would print custom frame guides on static cling film or something similar.

[Andrew Reid]

Sean is more senior in Lumix's marketing than people think.

The idea for Lumix Live was well meaning, but there's something wrong, as they barely get 800 to 1.5k views per live broadcast.

https://www.youtube.com/@LumixUSA/streams

This points to a lack of joined up strategy and not making use of their overall reach as such a big company with so many social media channels.

Or perhaps the content itself is just not compelling enough.

As the main social media marketing guy at Lumix USA, Sean probably has to shoulder some of the blame for that.

The strategy isn't working.

 

[Andrew Reid]

Also, to be fair to Sean... They haven't given him very much in terms of resources for these broadcasts.

As an official company spokesman, the first videos were done from his bedroom.

Which shows how little these large corporations invest in their staff, even senior ones.

[newfoundmass]

Yeah, my criticisms are directed toward Panasonic/Lumix as a whole, not at the staff who are doing the best with what they are given. There isn't much Sean can do without permission from the higher ups.

 

[Andrew Reid]

Mine too, and in that video Sean says there's a proper camera coming but of course nobody has any idea when.

He is against the regular 2 year release cycles and things like that.

Here is the big problem for Panasonic though...

Even if they do come out all guns blazing with an S1H Mark II, it's doubtful they'll fit an ND filter behind L-mount, and most customers will be even more locked into a rival lens mount like RF or Sony E than they were 6 years ago.

So the S1H Mark II could be really really good...

It could be a stacked sensor 8K camera and nobody will really care as they won't have any lenses for it.

If it is to be truly radical, new sensor technology, groundbreaking specs, under $3500 and cutting edge fundamentals like autofocus, then Panasonic's margin will be thin and people still won't buy it due to the lens mount, although this way it might get some of the faithful to upgrade from their Lumix S1H OG.

And it's the same problem with the S1, S1R successors.

I think Panasonic's problems run deeper than we care to admit on this forum.

I think they're fucked.

[IronFilm]

On 12/22/2024 at 1:13 AM, Andrew Reid said:

With a lens? I don't think so.

Some of those closed eBay auctions are coming with a kit lens. 

But if not, just pick up a nifty fifty from a dead mount for less than twenty bucks. 

 

[John Matthews]

I think most would agree that Panasonic's underperforming given their technology.

Personally, I think they're in year 2 or 3 of a five year plan to find a direction for M43. M43 needs a smaller, great-performing body. This could be a money-maker opportunity for them.

L-mount is their future, like it or not. They might not be that far off from the holy grail of the internal electronic ND filter. We'll see. If they can, it's not going to be with a Sony sensor. They'll need to design it themselves.

 

5 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Some of those closed eBay auctions are coming with a kit lens. 

But if not, just pick up a nifty fifty from a dead mount for less than twenty bucks. 

 

I'm fully behind the idea that those Chinese Amazon specials are really just scammers/slave drivers and e-waste abusers. Amazon and/or government should crack down on them. It's not right or fair. They're taking massive amounts of money away from the camera industry and the used market. I do think there should be some cheaper options for consumers, but this is why we have used cameras. There are so many sub $100 cameras (with lenses too) out there with less than 10000 clicks on them. All of those blow away this unethical e-waste for photography; for video, use your phone.

[MrSMW]

43 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

L-mount is their future, like it or not. They might not be that far off from the holy grail of the internal electronic ND filter. We'll see. If they can, it's not going to be with a Sony sensor. They'll need to design it themselves.

I don’t understand why they haven’t already.

It’s not as if they are a small company and I think are actually even slightly bigger than Sony?

Surely with the boffins that they have, it’s a case of reverse engineer someone else’s internal ND and one of Sony’s sensors and then make your own version?

Isn’t that formula exactly how Japanese companies got their start after WW2 by making knock off copies of Western manufactured items and in more recent times, China has taken over that role?

Of course Japan has moved on to now make exceptional quality items and China is not far behind, but they started out a lot of their bigger manufacturing companies by copying.

Or is it a case with Panasonic that their camera division, LUMIX, is too small and does not have the R&D budget for this?

And if that is the case, sometimes you have to speculate to move ahead, ie, gain more market share and momentum.

I have a theory about business that I have applied to my own for over quarter of a century and that is there are 3 types.

Those that don’t do enough. They were and are fucked from the moment they started up.

Those that give it 100%. They will never go beyond a certain point and sometimes even backwards because…

The third type gives more than 100% simply in order to stand still and maintain market position and it’s only those that go well beyond 100% that actually truly succeed. Other than by chance (such as they are a bit shit but get a lucky hype break anyway).

But what do I know…

[Thpriest]

I don't get "there aren't any lenses" talk. There are less lenses available than to a Sony shooter but there are plenty of lenses and more are appearing all the time. What lenses do most people really have? A 24-70 f2.8, maybe a wide or tele zoom depending on their work and 2 or 3 primes. You can easily have a decent L mount kit that covers most needs.

[MrSMW]

Agreed. L Mount is pretty good now especially this year with the Sigma 28-45mm f1.8 and Sigma 28-105mm f2.8 becoming available and probable purchases for me in 2025.

Pretty sure I am going to go for the 28-45 as I need something faster than f2.8 for low light work and though not as fast as the 50mm f1.2, has more practical real world use for me.

The 28-105 I am still on the fence over and depends on whether an S2R appears.

If it does, as a LUMIX version of the Leica SL3, then it’s a done deal and I will trade my Sony A7RV and 3x zoom lenses for that combo as it will cover 95% of my needs as a ‘one and done’ and that last 5%, at the extreme ends, will be my compromise.

But if there is no S2R, then there will also be no 28-105 for me either because although it is available in Sony E Mount, I would rather have my smaller trio of Tamron zoom lenses for that compact Sony body.

All pieces of the greater puzzle.

[John Matthews]

35 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

I don't get "there aren't any lenses" talk. There are less lenses available than to a Sony shooter but there are plenty of lenses and more are appearing all the time. What lenses do most people really have? A 24-70 f2.8, maybe a wide or tele zoom depending on their work and 2 or 3 primes. You can easily have a decent L mount kit that covers most needs.

Going either the prime route or the variable focal length route, everything is covered out to 200mm. The lenses are modern, sharp, with appropriately consistent coatings. All the Lumix lenses are weather resistant, fairly light with bright options available. They also have breathing correction, unlike MANY more popular brands. Don't like the Lumix lenses, get the Sigma ones and they're native mount too being part of the L mount alliance. You want anamorphic? There's that too. By the way, Lumix can also stabalize those very lenses too along with appropriate desqueezing. If you think the problem is L-mount, it's not- it's you.

[newfoundmass]

I think L-Mount's weakness, re: lenses, is in a more affordable/consumer sense. Sony and Canon have a lot of options, for all price brackets, that L-Mount doesn't hit. I think Lumix has a bigger issue than not having affordable lenses that average users can get (namely getting their cameras into the hands of average users to begin with) BUT it probably doesn't help. Average users, and heck, even some enthusiasts, don't always need f1.8 or f1.4 lenses. A bargain set of compact f2.8 primes wouldn't hurt the system, I don't think.

With that said, their current lenses are excellent and are among my favorite I've ever used, as far as new lenses go. I also think they are excellent value for what they are, though I know some people can't get over how much more expensive they are vs. their Sony and Canon counterparts, particularly the f1.8 primes. But the build quality and optical performance of the f1.8 primes blow both Sony and Canon's out of the water. Still, price often is what dictates people's spending habits.

I do wish Tamron would enter the L-mount, but I have a feeling that they don't because Sony owns a piece of them. They've rolled out lenses for pretty much every other mount at this point, even RF, so there has to be some reason for that. I suppose you could argue it's because there isn't a big enough customer base, but Fujifilm might have an even smaller one and they've released lenses for them.

[MrSMW]

46 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I do wish Tamron would enter the L-mount

Yes please. 

My 3 current zoom trio is their f2.8; 20-40, 28-75 and 70-180 and that was partly what sent me to Sony for my stills needs because they are just as real world good as their 24-70 and 70-200 counterparts, but much smaller and lighter.

I really like the latest Sigma 70-200, but it's facking huge and heavy compared with the Tamron 70-180 and as above, real world, there's nothing in it image-wise.

Samyang of course make their 35-150 equivalent in L Mount but it's too big for my tastes. If it was internal zoom, I could possibly make a case for it but anything over 1kg as a lens these days, is a hard no for me.

I was always put off the f1.8's from Lumix though because they just look so dull and for the few primes I have had in L Mount, went with the f2's from Sigma with their metal build and aperture rings.

[John Matthews]

48 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Average users, and heck, even some enthusiasts, don't always need f1.8 or f1.4 lenses. A bargain set of compact f2.8 primes wouldn't hurt the system, I don't think.

Yes, this is their weakness, for sure. I don't think those Sigma primes really cut it. I've said it before- they need a 28mm f2 and 40mm f2. If they want the S9 to succeed, that's what they need.

49 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I do wish Tamron would enter the L-mount, but I have a feeling that they don't because Sony owns a piece of them.

The more the merrier. Samyang and DJI should do something more at some point too.

[ntblowz]

I do like Lumix's prime lens and some zoom is using the same 67mm filter (except 1.4), and similar size and weight make hotswap on gimbal/filter much more convenient

 

Meike does make the entry level L mount lens with their 85/50/35mm f1.8/f2 lens, I hope there is a 24mm coming from them.

[Thpriest]

The Lumix 1.8 primes are great, the best I’ve used for video.

I’d love the Tamron 20-40 f2.8 on an L mount (or a Sigma equivalent).

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Thpriest said:

I’d love the Tamron 20-40 f2.8 on an L mount

It's a good lens.

I am currently trialling it adapted with full AF on my Zf because I am somewhat disappointed with the 'kit' 40mm f2 SE.

Everything is a bit to mushy for my tastes...

[newfoundmass]

8 hours ago, Thpriest said:

The Lumix 1.8 primes are great, the best I’ve used for video.

They really are great and well thought out. Love that they are all the same size. They definitely were thinking of video shooters when they made them.

Honestly I've been impressed with every L-mount Lumix lens I've used. Even the 20-60 kit lens is excellent. Easily the best kit lens I've ever used. I have yet to use any Sigma lenses though, as until I got the S5II X I didn't think they were worth getting because I'd heard the auto focus with contrast detect auto focus cameras wasn't as good.

[IronFilm]

On 12/24/2024 at 5:15 AM, newfoundmass said:

I think L-Mount's weakness, re: lenses, is in a more affordable/consumer sense. Sony and Canon have a lot of options, for all price brackets, that L-Mount doesn't hit. I think Lumix has a bigger issue than not having affordable lenses that average users can get (namely getting their cameras into the hands of average users to begin with) BUT it probably doesn't help. Average users, and heck, even some enthusiasts, don't always need f1.8 or f1.4 lenses. A bargain set of compact f2.8 primes wouldn't hurt the system, I don't think.

Yes, would be nice if Panasonic released cheaper primes (don't have to be weather sealed, f1.4, or made out of carbon, or whatever. Just give us those cheap "nifty fifties" that other systems would have, such as Canon 50mm f1.8 EF lens that would sell for only a little more than a hundred bucks. Or similar for Nikon, you can even go for less than a hundred bucks from B&H if you don't mind buying a Nikon refurbished lens. Although it seems the switch from DSLR to Mirrorless means the cheapest first party lenses seem to be a bit pricey now, the cheapest Canon 50mm for RF is US$199 vs US$125 for EF mount)

I see also personally the issue of lack of third party support as an even bigger sticking point, normally if you pick any mount, then filter for only AF lenses then sort by price, you'll see a tonne of cheap lenses being offered. 

For example I have to go more than half way down this page of Z Mount AF lenses before I discover the first Nikon branded lens:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Camera-Lenses/ci/17912?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH&filters=fct_a_focus-type_5738%3Aautofocus%2Cfct_lens-mount_3442%3Anikon-z-mount

Let's compare with the situation for L Mount:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Camera-Lenses/ci/17912/N/4196380428?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH&filters=fct_a_focus-type_5738%3Aautofocus%2Cfct_lens-mount_3442%3Aleica-l-mount

They have between one and zero 3rd Party Lenses which are cheaper than the cheapest first party lens. ("one or zero" depending on if you count Sigma as third party lenses or not, as normally you would, but then again they do make L Mount cameras) 

I recently put together a very cheap Fujifilm lens kit (12mm f2 / 21mm f1.2 / 25mm f2 / 56mm f1.7), which if I'd tried to do the same for L Mount (to use with say a cheap S1 or S5 mk1) might have cost twice or even thrice as much.