What is Lumix thinking?!

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I think forming the L-Mount alliance might've been primarily because of the pre-existing relationship they had with Leica and the convenience, as they'd already worked with the mount due to the existing relationship. I think they could've created their own mount and still worked with virtually all of the same companies. It's not like the user base of Leica users that already had L-mount lenses was that huge or that those folks would be all that interested in Lumix cameras because they were Leica users already for a reason. And it's not like those who bought Lumix L-mount cameras ended up buying a ton of Leica glass. But why potentially piss off Leica?

Yes, choosing L Mount meant it kept rock and solid and secure their position as OEM manufacturer for Leica. 

But it's also about the impression / vibes that the L Mount gives to consumers. That there is the broad support for it, not just one company going at it alone.

EOS-M for instance I always thought it was going to be a dead end mount, that's is a dead man walking, which Canon would eventualy kill. Because nobody else was making EOS-M mount cameras, and because obviously Canon would bring out a new mount for FF mirrorless, which thus means they must kill the other mount. 

While L Mount Alliance had a multi company backing of Leica / Panasonic / Sigma right from early on (and now others have joined too, such as BMD and DJI are making L Mount cameras). 

It gives you confidence that L Mount is in it for the long haul! Not merely at the whims of just one company. 

(yes it's always possible that L Mount disappears, as nothing but deaths and taxes is certain)

8 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

The more I think about it the more I do think Lumix should consider releasing a smaller sensor L-mount camera and some smaller lenses. Testing the waters with the potential of unifying all their cameras under the same lens mount seems like the best bet. I know it risks hurting the M43 line but unifying all their offerings under a single lens mount seems like the best move long term, especially considering all of their current M43 lenses are getting a little long in the tooth and could use an update.

If Panasonic brings out an APS-C camera with an L Mount (that isn't specifically a S35 "EVA2" or the next Varicam, which is very unlikely currently) then that's the 10ft high writing on the wall for me to sell all of my MFT equipment before their value totally tanks. 

Olympus has sold off their cameras to OM, Blackmagic seems to be losing interest in MFT for their future releases, ZCam's one MFT camera is very niche, DJI seems to be stepping away from MFT as well, JVC will likely never make another MFT camera, etc.... so if Panasonic kills their MFT cameras (as surely an APS-C L Mount is a sign of this future) then MFT rapidly loses their reasons to stick with it. 

  

8 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I'd have to go back and look at old footage, but I don't think I ever encountered vignetting when using Lumix lenses on my old LS300. 

Exactly! 

Panasonic and Olympus could have embraced an approach kinda like Fujifilm does.

Have put more S35/APS-C sensors into future MFT camera, and owned this niche instead of Fujifilm. Then ignored / skipped over the FF camera bracket, and gone straight for making Medium Format cameras as the next step up. 

[John Matthews]

On 2/4/2025 at 2:51 AM, IronFilm said:

If Panasonic brings out an APS-C camera with an L Mount (that isn't specifically a S35 "EVA2" or the next Varicam, which is very unlikely currently) then that's the 10ft high writing on the wall for me to sell all of my MFT equipment before their value totally tanks. 

I doubt their coming out with anything APS-C, but from I've seen with the original Four Thirds mount, it doesn't follow that prices will tank. Sure, you can pick up a Olympus E-420 with 2 kit zooms for about 100 euros, but that camera is 15 years old on a dead mount. Also, brand new, it would cold less than 500 euros- not bad considering 15 years of use. Even Samsung's mount didn't have prices tank, they will go down eventually though until the collectors want them. Cameras are never investments unless they're collectable and if you find a deal. Actually, I'm surprised there isn't more interest in vintage lenses as they're old and limited in quantity.

[MrSMW]

They are not going to make an APSC because they would piss their FF market off big time when we are literally screaming for successors to the S line.

It’s not just the bodies but an entire lens line is required.

”Just use the existing FF lenses?”

In that case, your FF camera is also APSC. It’s called cropping.

And M4/3 users would flip out also and feel they were being neglected.

I doubt very much the market is there anyway and they are hardly the biggest player who can take a punt.

Nah, can’t see it. At all.

[Andrew Reid]

I think APS-C makes sense for Panasonic.

For a start it will be L-mount whereas Micro Four Thirds will never be.

That means a secondary, potentially very big customer-base for their current and future lenses!

With APS-C they have a higher-margin on the camera side, and can make smaller systems.

With the S9 they have tried to do that... But the S9 doesn't make sense with the higher-end full frame lenses being so massive, and massively expensive for that target market.

With a high-end APS-C camera, Sigma already has fast APS-C primes and zooms.

I can see Sigma coming out with an APS-C camera as what is the point of having a nice range of APS-C L-mount lenses with no APS-C camera for them?

Not everyone wants to buy a full frame camera.

I am reminded of that when I see the success of the OM-1 and X-T5!

[MrSMW]

I forgot that Sigma has APSC lenses and I own one of them! Duh!

Well OK, a body is not such a bad thing then and maybe they could do a collab with Sigma for something to replace the FP, just APSC?

[Andrew Reid]

I think Sony and Fuji are doing pretty well with APS-C sales? Think I saw a store chart on one of the camera sites that showed almost all the top 10 best sellers being APS-C bodies... Map Camera in Japan I think... I really do think Pana are missing a trick. Micro Four Thirds is basically just two cameras now, the GH7 and G9 II, and neither of them are what you'd call Sony A6400 or Fuji X-M5 level of affordable.

Why are camera companies so afraid of introducing new formats...

L-mount APS-C is basically just the Leica CL!

Fuji have... what, 25 different bodies?

Sony... at least 15?

Panasonic should axe Micro Four Thirds and go all in on L-mount... and that means crop sensor options, not just the mid-range stuff like S5 II and S9.

I have nothin against Micro Four Thirds by the way, our old fav

It's a great creative system with a fun factor that usually goes far beyond the worktool arena of full frame bores.

In fact I may just get an OM-1 and sign off... the system is dead, the peak of it was the last Olympus camera, the OM-1... The OM System rebadges are never going to be anything much more than a firmware update or slight tweak to the casing designs... And Panasonic G9 II / GH7 are too worktool focused to be very much fun or very different to the more expensive stuff.

[MrSMW]

Oh and Leica also have a range of APSC lenses don’t they and until recently had a range of bodies to suit…

OK, I must have been having some kind of brain fade when I commented the other day.

However/so, the S9 makes for a brilliant APSC lens platform/camera system then!

I even have mine right now and since it arrived with the Sigma 18-50mm on it 🤦🏻‍♂️

 

[ac6000cw]

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Panasonic should axe Micro Four Thirds and go all in on L-mount... and that means crop sensor options, not just the mid-range stuff like S5 II and S9.

I don't think they'd kill MFT completely while the GH7 and G9ii are still profitable, if only to get get a decent return on the investment in the 25MP sensor development.

If they wanted to do an APS-C camera, the obvious one to me would be an 'S90' with a (top left corner) high-res EVF i.e. a direct competitor to the A6700 and X-S20.

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

However/so, the S9 makes for a brilliant APSC lens platform/camera system then!

I agree, and have seriously thought about buying one plus the Sigma 18-50mm for that reason (I'm a '50p' video person and 4k50 is an enforced APS-C crop anyway). But then the A6700 has a much wider range of lenses available and an EVF... (Fuji cameras are ruled out for me as they don't support plug-in power for external mics).

[cosarth]

If only I could fit my L-mount glass into MFT...the GH7 would be an instant buy!

Apart from the low light capabilities in unpredictable dark conditions, it does everything I could ever ask for my video workflow.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

I agree, and have seriously thought about buying one plus the Sigma 18-50mm for that reason

I'm floating around the idea in my noggin of going for the 16 + 30 + 56 all f1.4 instead of the FF 18 + 50 f1.8s + 100 f2.8

Not as wide, not as much reach, but used, I can pick up the APSC trio for well under €1k.

Having said that, for me, it's not all about lowest price but rather a consideration as part of the whole.

And those FF primes from Lumix are not much bigger and heavier than those Sigma cropped lenses and I can keep on shooting 6k 30p open gate...

The/any S2R is going to be my trigger on this, but then having said that, part of me doesn't want there to be one so I can keep my A7RV 😜

[Thpriest]

I thought those Sigma 1.4 apsc lenses didn’t have great af?

[Walter H]

Latest rumors claim an S1Rii announcement on Feb 25th with a second full-frame body announced in April. 😐

[Andrew Reid]

11 minutes ago, Walter H said:

Latest rumors claim an S1Rii announcement on Feb 25th with a second full-frame body announced in April. 😐

I wish I could say I am invested in L-mount at the moment...

But I'm not. It would take something seriously special to tempt me back into the system now.

They have just gone so long without the new Panasonic cameras, I had no reason to buy any lenses.

And without any native lenses, a big investment is needed to make full use of an S1H Mark II or whatever's next.

Not for me. I'll pass.

[IronFilm]

On 2/5/2025 at 7:20 PM, John Matthews said:

I doubt their coming out with anything APS-C

I doubt it too. 

Just if it happened, then I'd know LUMIX MFT is minutes away from being EOL.

On 2/5/2025 at 7:33 PM, MrSMW said:

They are not going to make an APSC because they would piss their FF market off big time when we are literally screaming for successors to the S line.

Aside from the very sad death of MFT that it would mean, I'd love a S9 with an APS-C sensor, then I could use teeny tiny lenses that match the small S9 sized body.

On 2/5/2025 at 7:33 PM, MrSMW said:

In that case, your FF camera is also APSC. It’s called cropping.

Rather not use an APS-C lens on a 24MP FF sensor. 

On 2/5/2025 at 7:33 PM, MrSMW said:

And M4/3 users would flip out also and feel they were being neglected.

100%!

On 2/6/2025 at 9:45 AM, Andrew Reid said:

With the S9 they have tried to do that... But the S9 doesn't make sense with the higher-end full frame lenses being so massive, and massively expensive for that target market.

They just need more pancake lenses!

Viltrox 28mm f4.5 just released their pancake lens (truly teeny tiny, in fact they call it a "chip" lens not pancake) for Fujifilm, which I'll be getting. Hopefully L Mount is next?

15 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

I don't think they'd kill MFT completely while the GH7 and G9ii are still profitable, if only to get get a decent return on the investment in the 25MP sensor development.

Yes, I wouldn't expect a big announcement "WE. ARE. KILLING. MFT." rather the years would just slowly roll by without us ever seeing a GH8 or G9iii until 2030 rolls around and we ask "huh, where is our updated flagship??"

On 2/6/2025 at 1:38 PM, Andrew Reid said:

I really do think Pana are missing a trick. Micro Four Thirds is basically just two cameras now, the GH7 and G9 II, and neither of them are what you'd call Sony A6400 or Fuji X-M5 level of affordable.

Reason number eleventy hundredth and the third as to why Panasonic should release a Panasonic GX950, to give us both an affordable /  small body alternative to the flagship cameras and to cash in on the compact / retro hype that the X100 series has been generating.

 

[Andrew Reid]

3 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Doesn't look like she eats many crisps.

There should definitely be more thin lenses.

I have become allergic to heavy stuff.

I mean look at this pair...

So much more fun than your average worktool + heavy work zoom

[IronFilm]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

So much more fun than your average worktool + heavy work zoom

Yup! I went to a meetup last night and to take pictures of the speakers I just simply brought along my compact Fujfilm camera with a Siru 23mm f1.2 on it and a Viltrox 56mm f1.7 slipped into my pocket! So easy to bring along. 

[ac6000cw]

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

There should definitely be more thin lenses.

I have become allergic to heavy stuff.

I mean look at this pair...

So much more fun than your average worktool + heavy work zoom

I agree - and what I sometimes do with my OM-1.

With the Oly 14-42 EZ or Pana 12-32 pancakes on it the grip is the deepest part and I can fit it in quite a small camera bag (and the combo weighs less than 700g).

I use the Oly 12-100mm F4 IS Pro sometimes which is a great lens (and has Sync-IS) but it's 5x longer and 6x heavier than either pancake lens, so I've really got to want to take it... or I sit on the fence and use the Pana 14-140 F3.5-F5.6 instead (3x longer and heavier vs. pancake).

While I'd like a small but still high-spec MFT camera, I also like the having deep grip, the two front function buttons and the high-res EVF (and generally good handling), so I'm experimenting with the OM-1 plus small lenses as a good compromise for everyday use.

(...and I've got a ZV-1 if I want pocket-sized)

Choices...

[Walter H]

I hear everyone's lament about the lack of Panny releases and I too am concerned about how well they are positioned to continue - they certainly killed Varicam which at the time was very good and promised improvement. But I feel the criticism about longer periods without a flagship release (and the accordant undertones of feeling betrayed) is partly about being seduced by the market and the immediacy of contemporary capitalism than the tools themselves.

My S1 is still killing it as my primary hybrid camera. Within months of its annoucement, I picked it and the 24/105 up and within a year three primes and this has been the best value return system I've ever owned. My only lament is the autofocus (unsurprising), which renders it virtually unuseable in lower lighting for event photography, etc. 

For my use I could switch to Canon (a C80 and R-something for stills) but the expense of buying into that system is just too much. I don't connect with Sony imagery. I've loved Nikon but they lost me with the Z6iii - I cannot imagine contending with the variable shadow noise while shooting in uncontrolled environments. (Honestly, if it were't for that issue, I'd strongly consider the switch to Nikon). 

And then I come back to the clean sensor and the color and the robustness of the Panny... If I'm not moved by their releases in the next two months, I will likely (finally) pickup an S5ii/x for low-light autofocus to have alongside my S1 for my hybrid work and, with money saved, get the 24/70 (finally) for that gorgeous microcontrast and leave it at that. 

Lastly, the hope of the Viltrox 28mm for L-mount actually has me holding on to my S5 body since I could perhaps sell it for $600 at this point. I never really liked the S5 beyond its sensor but I think it would be a great carry most everywhere body - throw-it-in-the-glovebox-and-not-care-much camera. Everyone is rushing to spend so much more than $600 for small cameras (generally with smaller sensors), espeically if your needs dictate an evf (mine do). 

Lastly, lastly, f'ing tethering to Capture One What The FFFFFFFFFF?! I had to pick up a Fuji X-H2 for proper tethering when needed. The Panasonic workarounds are cumbersome and glitchy. Looks like with the release of the S1Rii, there is a partnership with Capture One so hopefully that will be resolved going forward.

 

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Walter H said:

But I feel the criticism about longer periods without a flagship release (and the accordant undertones of feeling betrayed) is partly about being seduced by the market and the immediacy of contemporary capitalism than the tools themselves.

Maybe, but...

2 hours ago, Walter H said:

My only lament is the autofocus (unsurprising), which renders it virtually unuseable in lower lighting for event photography, etc. 

Is for me anyway, my gripes against the S5, the S1H and S1R.

To be fair, they were and are OK in most situations, more photo than video, but it was the forward tracking on video where I struggled.

And the size/weight was a bit more than most wanted but actually not a deal breaker for me.

With the S5II, they solved all of that...except according to some, at the expense of outright image quality.

I am not seeing that myself, but probably more because when I switched from OG S5 to S5II, I also switched lenses, filters, from editing with a LUT in post to shooting with a LUT baked in, in camera and from 4k 50p to 6k 30p.

The S1H is still my favourite video camera of all time except for 2 factors:

1. The AF tracking.

2. Cannot bake in a LUT and so does not fit with my workflow so was replaced with another S5II.

For stills, I switched from S1R to Sony A7RV and it's night and day better IMO. 

Marginal in IQ if we are talking web and social media, but when I am editing stills images, a positive difference. Could also be the lenses...and my heaviest combo in that regard is a whopping 1kg lighter in hand!!

But principally, it's the entire experience from the size & weight, through speed and accuracy and then the actual editing and IQ.

I'm still on the fence whether I will go for the S2R/S1RII or whatever it may be called but the rumour mills are adamant it is going to be announced in a few weeks and if we get wind of more than a few being in Norway around this time, that might have been the likely place for the influencers to have gathered as a couple I have noticed of LUMInati have just been there for 'something'...

My fence sitting is purely down to the A7RV and the 3 lenses I have for it. Combined, they are the near perfect solution for my stills needs and the only thing missing from the lineup, is a dedicated fast aperture low light AF lens and I have held off on that until I know whether I am going all in on L Mount (subject to that S2R), or sticking with Sony.

Head says Sony. Heart says LUMIX. Wallet says either.

 

[newfoundmass]

4 hours ago, Walter H said:

But I feel the criticism about longer periods without a flagship release (and the accordant undertones of feeling betrayed) is partly about being seduced by the market and the immediacy of contemporary capitalism than the tools themselves.

It's not the lack of releases that is the issue, at least not for me, it's the lack of communication. They don't need to be like Sony, who releases a new camera every time there is a minor upgrade that could've been released as a firmware update. In fact I'd prefer they don't! But simply giving people an idea on what is in the pipeline would sure be welcomed. Tell people that S1, S1R and S1H successors are in the pipeline and give people a little meat to chew on. There's no reason not to, especially when the user base and many in the industry are nervous about the company's future in the marketplace.

The silence reminds me of period between the GH5 and the announcement of the GH6 and why I moved on from M43 to begin with.