Leica SL3 / SL3-S

[Ninpo33]

News of the new Leica SL3-S on the horizon but still no news from Panasonic about the sister cameras the S1R2 and S1H2. And worse, lots of poor reviews about the new SL3 from Leica users. For a $7k camera I’m surprised to read about the poor build quality and its shortcomings. Was 2020 peak year for 4k cameras? Maybe a good time to pick up the SL2 and S1R before prices go back up? 
 

Have Leica and LUMIX changed their partnership/relationship?
 

It would be a real bummer to wait all this time for lackluster specs. I find it hard to believe Leica would put out the worse camera so it makes me fearful the S1R2 (if it comes out) is going to be a dud. With Fujifilm GFX 100s hitting $2k right now I think I may have to abandon my plan to stay L mount. I have a trip to Tokyo in January so I have to make some decisions for the high mp focused stills/video body. GFX 100s or Sony A7CR looks like the possible options for me now. Bidding on a cheap S1R this week so that may still hold me over for a little longer but I’m getting restless. I know I’m not the only one. 
 

I hope I’m wrong but the review below of the SL3 from Reddit is a downer for our Leica/Lumix future. 
 

From User: syrcular

I had an SL3 for about 3 months and recently sold it. The camera was fantastic in a lot of ways, but also fell short in many others. The image quality and colors out of this camera are absolutely stunning! There's very little editing to be done, if you nail exposure. The colors are gorgeous and the high resolution renders images beautifully! Additionally it matches really well with the M11 and Q3, when it comes to sharing the same resolution, so one of the main purposes for me of getting this camera was to have it complete my already 60mp sensor cameras; the Q3 and the M11-P. But in order for me to justify spending the money, that meant I had to let go of my professional Sony body. So I managed to convince myself to let the Sony kit go and go all in Leica SL!

In the beginning I was very excited about the migration, but I also ignored red flags that didn't fit me or my style, partly because I had leaped frogged to the new system and didn't want to look back! But the honey moon phase started fading away by the end of month 2 and into month three.

It is true, the build quality doesn't quite feel the same as the SL2 or SL2-S. I believe this is because they wanted to reduce the overall weight of the camera, so it makes sense, but it definitely felt different and in some ways cheaper.

The shutter slap on this camera, felt like an old medium format Pentax film camera. It's loud and proud. As a street and documentary photographer intending on using this to capture candida moments and activity behind the scenes, the shutter noise was way too loud for my taste, and often distracted or alerted people I was shooting the camera. For alot of people that's not a big deal, but for me, trying to be unoticed, it was a problem. Most note-ably because the shutter sound was completely different than the SL2 or SL2-S, which was quieter and more discreet in my opinion.

Knowing that this camera was going to be slow, I think I underestimated how slow this camera was going to be. The justification from Leica is that the camera his high resolution therefore it had to comprimise in areas like burst speed, flash sync and IBIS. But when you compare cameras like the Sony A7rV, which can handle 10fps Compressed and 7 frames Uncompressed burts rates, you wonder why Leica could not achieve the same. The fact that the camera could only do 5fps in Continuous AF, and that any burst above that were only in AF-S mode seemed like a step back from most cameras, and especially high res cameras of today, like the Sony A7rV, Canon R5 and the Nikon Z8. The combination of the slow burst rate and loud clunky shutter mechanism, definitely made the camera feel a little big cheaper. Which is not what you want to feel when you just spent $7000

The SL system has historically had an amazing EVF. And this was no different at first look with the SL3. However, when you shoot with continuous AF, the EVF brings down the resolution and the quality of the EVF takes a hit, the moment you half press the shutter to begin continuous autofocus. This is common in other camera brands, like Sony, but I hadn't seen it this bad. The Q3 has a similar issue as well. The quality bumps down so bad, that you really have to rely on the camera catching focus, because it's impossible to see outright. If you should in AF-S, this is not as prevelant, however, if you magnify the EVF quality does take a hit again, which is something I never noticed with my SL2-S. This constant quality change in the EVF affected my enjoyment of the camera and although I tolerated it at times, it started really bugging me.

I would occasionally experience the camera freezing up, which made you question the overall reliability of the camera system. I could quickly fix this by popping the battery in and out, but it happened a few times, and definitely made me feel uneasy.

Battery life was not good on this camera at all. I did end up having to buy a bunch of the updated SL batteries, which were expensive but necessary for my work. But I typically had to take about 3-4 batteries with me. That's at $200 a battery.

So after really thinking about it, I decided, to sell the camera. My main issue was that for the price of $7000, the camera shouldn't be running into the issues described above or exhibit some of these short comings, when I could use the equivelant money, and have a camera and a few lenses performing reliably and with significant speed, whether I need it or not.

With my M, I expect to slow down and shoot differently but that's because the experience is vastly different. But with the SL, you would expect it to come close to the performance of modern cameras, and it couldn't quite keep up with my pace, even when I tried. This camera is perfect as a studio portrait camera, and married with M or SL glass, it's an amazing imaging machine for professional work, but I realized I needed more versatility and the SL3 doesn't quite give you that.

I could get into my gripes with the L Mount Alliance lenses, but thats for another discussion

 

 

[MrSMW]

11 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

GFX 100s or Sony A7CR looks like the possible options for me now

I considered both for my needs and in the end went for something ‘in the middle’, the A7RV. And I can’t really fault it.

It’s a much better piece of kit than the A7CR (better lens platform, vastly better rear screen, 2 card slots…) and not far off the 100mp sensor of the Fuji whilst being more compact and offering far more lens options, never mind the far superior AF.

For travel, I’d say its case goes up even further based on the size and weight of the body and the lenses.

I know one thing based on my most recent trip to Paris and that is I would not go out on any serious urban or landscape shoot without my 70-180 again.

I have mine with the Tamron f2.8 trio of; 20-40, 28-75, 70-180 and when you also factor in one click switch to 26mp crop mode, the focal range and sheer quality of output from such a compact small bag set up, is bonkers.

And cost-wise, all available on the used market at pretty decent prices. I think you could score the lot for around 5k not including anything you might sell to help fund it.

Japan is No.1 on my bucket list. I would even need to think about what I’d take because it would be this body and 3 lens set up with one small bag.

[MrSMW]

I should add that compared to the SL3, would I consider or go that route?

At 7k for the body alone? Nope.

For the same money, ie, if the SL3 was the same price as the A7RV used? Possibly/probably if only to scratch that Leica itch.

But then for travel purposes, bigger camera and bigger lenses, so maybe not.

It will be interesting to see if A. there is any kind of S2R and then B. what it is, but struggling to see past the A7RV right now for anything hi res and compact(ish).

[Andrew Reid]

16 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

With Fujifilm GFX 100s hitting $2k right now I think I may have to abandon my plan to stay L mount. I have a trip to Tokyo in January so I have to make some decisions for the high mp focused stills/video body. GFX 100s or Sony A7CR looks like the possible options for me now. Bidding on a cheap S1R this week so that may still hold me over for a little longer but I’m getting restless. I know I’m not the only one.

By advice would be to dump L-mount and get the GFX 100 with the Fringer EF adapter and Leica M adapter for GFX. It's glorious. The extra pizazz it brings to old SLR lenses when you find a good match, the XPan style wide aspect ratio mode, the massive sensor, the really good 10bit 4K, and the best build quality I have ever had the pleasure of, way better than the SL3 with it's terrible screen construction and dodgy on/off button (couldn't even get that right!)

As an added bonus... the phase-detect AF works REALLY well with the Fringer EF adapter and the 50mm F1.4, which is hardly an expensive Canon lens, doesn't have significant vignetting on the larger GFX format sensor.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

the XPan style wide aspect ratio mode

I really wish they would bring that to Sony cameras.

I have just bought a screen protector that I am going to tape up in that aspect ratio however as a ‘fix’.

 

[Ninpo33]

6 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I really wish they would bring that to Sony cameras.

I have just bought a screen protector that I am going to tape up in that aspect ratio however as a ‘fix’.

 

Yeah Sony is weird. They could learn from LUMIX and Fuji and give people more but they can’t seem to be bothered. I guess when you’re at the top you can throw down some scraps here and there and the people will gobble them up and sing your praises. Anamorphic crop modes, X-Pan crop, shutter angle, LUT previews… these were all things LUMIX gave as extras but trying to get Sony to update or add basic features has always been like pulling teeth. That fast, sticky autofocus, ease of use and clean UHD image is still winning the hearts and minds. 

[Ninpo33]

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

By advice would be to dump L-mount and get the GFX 100 with the Fringer EF adapter and Leica M adapter for GFX. It's glorious. The extra pizazz it brings to old SLR lenses when you find a good match, the XPan style wide aspect ratio mode, the massive sensor, the really good 10bit 4K, and the best build quality I have ever had the pleasure of, way better than the SL3 with it's terrible screen construction and dodgy on/off button (couldn't even get that right!)

As an added bonus... the phase-detect AF works REALLY well with the Fringer EF adapter and the 50mm F1.4, which is hardly an expensive Canon lens, doesn't have significant vignetting on the larger GFX format sensor.

Thanks. I’m leaning that way. If only they would give us a nice little firmware update on the 100s to add some crop modes like the 100 II or anamorphic support… $2k is crazy for that 100mp sensor though and I can live with just leaving it on 24p 10bit 4KDCI all the time. I’ve already been building a collection of medium format lenses for a few years knowing things would eventually go this way Mamiya 645 and Russian glass mostly. So nice to be able to adapt for full frame while waiting on the GFX prices to come down. And with the Kipon focal reducers it’s really opened things up. Looking forward to playing with the Fringer adapter. If only they would make one for my Minolta A mount stuff… the Sony AF adapter is loud and slow and only works in stills mode. 
 

If I pick up a cheap X-H2s for the high frame rate stuff and then a little X-M5 for pocket 6.2k open gate I will be sorted for a while. 
 

Very impressive video I found from this guy testing the X-M5 on holiday alongside the X-H2s.

 

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

$2k is crazy for that 100mp sensor though and I can live with just leaving it on 24p 10bit 4KDCI all the time. I’ve already been building a collection of medium format lenses for a few years knowing things would eventually go this way Mamiya 645 and Russian glass mostly.

The GFX100 is the most misunderstood camera on the market.

It's a full frame mirrorless camera, which just so happens to have an even larger sensor and the highest resolution of any mirrorless camera.

In the full frame mode it is 60mp, like an a7r V.

In the medium format mode, it is more like full frame+ rather than real medium format like a Hasselblad film camera, so the full frame lenses still work.

Had it been an even larger sensor or a reflex camera with a mirror, of course you'd need to get the native lenses but really you don't.

So that brings the cost down massively and opens up the creative possibilities more than any other camera I know.

Also what people don't understand is that the smaller GFX 100S is a significantly cost cut version, which doesn't feel anywhere near as good.

The OG GFX100 has the best build quality and ergonomics of any mirrorless camera, full stop. The size isn't too bad, and neither is weight a problem. It's closer to a Nikon Z9 than a RED.

I also really like the top display and gunmetal blue, and the detachable viewfinder which the GFX 100S doesn't have.

It becomes completely flat on top without it, which is somehow quite charming and brings the profile down.

With it, the EVF is one of the best on the market - big, detailed, fast.

With superb IBIS and on-sensor phase-detect AF it has all the bells and whistles.

You put a humdrum 50 dollar M42 lens on there and it looks like a fucking Noctilux.

And this is the part I don't understand - the lack of awareness for that, and the massive depreciation as if nobody wants it. This was a $10,000 camera when it came out, and it came out in the modern era not in the fucking 90s!

At half that price apparently it didn't really sell, so second hand prices kept going down and down.

Now it is less than the price of a Z6 III!

It makes that camera feel like a complete toy.

[Ninpo33]

Yeah I've lusted after the 100 since day one. I just saw one sell for below $2k. 

The 100s is in my budget and size and for travel I could really use the savings in weight and extra space in the bag. Ideally I would save up for the 100ii and at around $5,000 I could make that work. For now a 100s for $2,000 would be a nice intro into the system and allow me to start playing with all this vintage glass. Yeah, maybe not the same build quality as the original with better design and EVF. I'll keep an eye out for a deal. 

Bidding on an S1R for below $1,000 at the moment, Talking to a local chap for an SL2 at $2,000 and keeping an eye out for a steal on a GFX 100/s. Fun Times...!!! At least one of these high MP monsters will be under the tree soon.

[Andrew Reid]

The GFX100 is about 300-400g heavier than the SL2 or S1R, so depending on what small nifty lens you put on it, it could in total end up lighter than those.

Good luck!

[eatstoomuchjam]

FWIW, the Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 seems to be the most popular cheap/light/small lens to pair with a GF body.  Autofocus works great with Fringer and there's no hard vignette - and it's nearly a full stop faster than the Fujinon 50/3.5.

[MrSMW]

I’ve been so tempted with a used OG GFX100 except for one thing and that is no AF zoom option outside of the native lenses which for me are either too big or too slow. Or both.

Now if Fuji X was just full-frame instead of APSC…

Nah, I’ll stick with my A7RV.

S1R is a VERY good option for the price though 👍

[Django]

I'm a little confused, so the GFX has a 60MP FF crop mode but when in 100MP MF mode FF lenses fit without needing to crop? 

SL2 5K "open-gate" mode isn't really open-gate as it has a S35 crop so not full sensor width and of course not FF.

[Ninpo33]

6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

FWIW, the Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 seems to be the most popular cheap/light/small lens to pair with a GF body.  Autofocus works great with Fringer and there's no hard vignette - and it's nearly a full stop faster than the Fujinon 50/3.5.

You recommend the Fringer adapter for EF lenses? I only have the 24mm 1.4 mk1 for now but would like to get the 50mm and 85mm 1.2 to add to my Minolta A mount set. 

[Andrew Reid]

The Fringer works the best, much more reliable, dependable than the Techart with really the peak performance in terms of AF, but beware going wider than 40mm as you will see vignetting on a lot more lenses, especially the 24mm f1.4. You can shoot 35mm crop mode (full frame) on the GFX 100 but not in video mode.

Minolta MD and A mount lenses work well but for autofocus you need that Fringer EF adapter.

[Ninpo33]

4 hours ago, Django said:

 

SL2 5K "open-gate" mode isn't really open-gate as it has a S35 crop so not full sensor width and of course not FF.

Not sure I follow? The regular modes are all 4k FF and it even does 4k 60p with no crop which was rare at the time. Why are you highlighting one of the super 35 crops? 

[Ninpo33]

13 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The Fringer works the best, much more reliable, dependable than the Techart with really the peak performance in terms of AF, but beware going wider than 40mm as you will see vignetting on a lot more lenses, especially the 24mm f1.4. You can shoot 35mm crop mode (full frame) on the GFX 100 but not in video mode.

Minolta MD and A mount lenses work well but for autofocus you need that Fringer EF adapter.

Awesome. 
 

I think I will have fun with the Mamiya 645 set and the Kipon 0.8x adapter. I’ve been shopping for the 80mm f/1.9 because my copy is a little hazzy. Kind of a built in cinebloom filter though… lol

These vintage MF lenses were cheap the last couple of years but now the rehousing companies have gotten ahold of them. Very versatile though being able to speedboost to full frame and GFX though. The Arsat 30mm fisheye should be interesting, I have yet to try it. I found one with a rare Mamiya mount so it fits right into the speedbooster. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

7 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

You recommend the Fringer adapter for EF lenses? I only have the 24mm 1.4 mk1 for now but would like to get the 50mm and 85mm 1.2 to add to my Minolta A mount set. 

Yes.  The Steelsring adapter is also great, but they haven't updated the firmware in a while and there are occasional fuck-ups with it - like the Canon 40/2.8 in photo mode on my 100 II kept going to minimum focus and just staying there (if I turned on autofocus, manual focus worked fine).  Worked fine in video mode, though.
I should see if they ever updated the firmware on the Techart.  I have one around here somewhere and I stopped using it when other adapters got PD support and it didn't.  Maybe they finally fixed that.

Any time you're curious about whether a given lens will cover the sensor on a GFX, btw, there's a community google spreadsheet which is pretty comprehensive.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uxvvpxJ9QVFFyh0pW2rs9KBmUW9vlh-d-VnbcLDCTn8/edit?gid=0#gid=0

I was just looking at it again and realized that the FD 20mm f/2.8 actually covers the full sensor.  Now I have to check if I actually have that one (I think I do?)...  could be a fun look on the GFX.

But if you want a 24mm EF lens that covers, I think your only option will be one of the PC/TS lenses.  They have huge image circles.  Won't be an f/1.4, though.

[Ninpo33]

2 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I was just looking at it again and realized that the FD 20mm f/2.8 actually covers the full sensor.  Now I have to check if I actually have that one (I think I do?)...  could be a fun look on the GFX.

Thanks for the info. That’s a nice spreadsheet, very handy. I’ve been working the other way and buying 6x6 and 6x4.5 lenses I know will cover and then speed boosting down. It will be a pleasant surprise to find out that some of my full frame lenses will cover.