Leica SL3 / SL3-S

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Why is a camera as powerful and obviously NOT obsolete as GFX 100 worth only 2k?

I'm guessing it's a combo of size + lack of hype.

Plus a little of 'maybe the price was a bit too high in the first place?'

I'd have one for sure. If only I had slightly different needs...

And that is probably the 4th element. Same as stuff like the Sigma FP, it's a little too quirky and doesn't quite fit into the low-end pro market for wedding vid hacks like me, but also isn't something the bigger boys can work with, so these things find homes with the slightly left-field enthusiasts.

I've tried the 'wilfully different' approach many times over the last couple of decades and have come to the conclusion that whilst it might be fun, it's also frustrating and frustrating in business costs time and money.

So whilst I refuse to conform 100%, I have to lean evermore into the 'sensible corner' 😏

[ArashM]

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Leica would be mad to use the S5II body as it’s not in the same league build-wise.

It will be a SL3 body with the logo blacked out, there is no world where I see them using a S5ii body (unless I totally miss-understood your comment)

[eatstoomuchjam]

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Whereas the X100 VI is a very cool pocket camera, I don't understand why the image quality of the GFX 100 is worth $0 premium over it... Alas, I will never understand the average photog.

Keep in mind that you're comparing an outlier low price on a used camera (at least in the US, going rate for a used GFX 100 in good condition is closer to $3k) to MSRP on a brand new camera that many people purchase as much as a lifestyle/fashion item as they do for any other reason.  Most of the people who buy an X100 VI would be better off just spending the money on the latest iPhone Pro if they don't already have it.  It'll look just as good for most of their use case, give them an integrated wide angle and telephoto option, and it can use apps to post directly to their social media platforms of choice.  😅

I can also say that after years of travel and trying to fit the GFX 100 into various smaller camera bags, the size of the GFX 100 II was a major selling point for me.

[ac6000cw]

SL3-s has arrived - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/leica-sl3-s-initial-review

Spec comparison table from the article - it's seems basically an S5iix in a Leica body (at 2.5x the price).

[Thpriest]

With a better screen and viewfinder?

[ac6000cw]

2 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

With a better screen and viewfinder?

Yes. Worse battery life (based on CIPA ratings) plus a bit larger and heavier.

[eatstoomuchjam]

Yes, and it will have a much nicer body, different (and generally agreed to be better) colors, and may or may not work well with L mount lenses from other vendors (based on Andrew's recent experience).

It does have a dedicated timecode input.  That's nice.

But if this is a preview for any sort of S1H II...  🥱

[ac6000cw]

33 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

But if this is a preview for any sort of S1H II...  🥱

Being realistic, any S1H successor has to at least match and preferably exceed the basic video specs of the Z6 iii e.g. full-frame UHD/6k video up to 60p with sub-10ms rolling shutter, otherwise there's no point (and even fewer sales)... This means a new (to Panasonic) sensor - the old 24MP sensor just won't cut it in that market any more.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Thpriest said:

With a better screen and viewfinder

Is about the real world sum of it.

I would MUCH rather have one of these over the S5II, but financially, back in my real world...

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

But if this is a preview for any sort of S1H II...

Agreed, highly unlikely or LUMIX will be up a creek because it's just S5II spec internally which you can get for around €1k.

 

[Ninpo33]

43 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

Being realistic, any S1H successor has to at least match and preferably exceed the basic video specs of the Z6 iii e.g. full-frame UHD/6k video up to 60p with sub-10ms rolling shutter…

Agreed. And the Z6 iii just went on sale already this week…!!! Panny Boi is really late to the party…!!!

 

 

 

[Ninpo33]

Just now, MrSMW said:

Agreed, highly unlikely or LUMIX will be up a creek because it's just S5II spec internally which you can get for around €1k.

 

Well, SL3-S has recording to SSD and is pretty helpful so really the S5iiX specs, but yeah. Same same mostly. 

 

[Ninpo33]

Well, The best news from today?

I can now scoop up an SL2 for just under $2,000 finally. And I can add a s5iix as my second body and not feel bad about what I’m missing out on LOL. 

I was really hoping for a preview of what LUMIX will bring in 2025 but instead we get to see more recycled tech 
 

[MrSMW]

4 minutes ago, Ninpo33 said:

I was really hoping for a preview of what LUMIX will bring in 2025 but instead we get to see more recycled tech

I think this one any one of us could have written the script for this release any time within the last year.

And so it came to pass...

Now where is my S1R mk II??!!

[eatstoomuchjam]

I just watched the PetaPixel preview for it which was, ironically, fairly photo-focused and didn't include the Jordan section.  But my jaw dropped a bit when Chris mentioned that the ES readout time is 25ms.  25ms!  On a 6K $5,000+ video-focused body released in 2025!  Also, the H.26whatever 6K that it records internally is only 4:2:0!  What's a guy gotta' do to get some chroma subsampling around here?  (Shoot ProRes, I guess, I think that's also internal).

Since the Z6 III has come up a few times in this discussion already, its rolling shutter is <10ms.  And sure, rolling shutter isn't the most important or only spec for a camera, but...  heck, the R5 II has something like 13ms in 8K!   

Even knowing that Leica's luxury brand pricing is detached from reality, it seems just brazen to release a camera with specs that were pretty good 3 years ago (when the S5 II was released) at this price point!  Guess they need to get some YouTubers to release a video that looks just like all their other videos and then insist that there's some special magic to the Leica image.  Someone call Pooter McCubbins or Cam Mackackackacky STAT!

[MrSMW]

I am hoping the deal went something like this…

Leica: “Can we please use the internals from your S5IIX for our SL3-S?”

LUMIX: “Sure can, but immediately after you announce that, can we have the internal stuff from your SL3 for our S2R?”

And both parties agreed.

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I just watched the PetaPixel preview for it which was, ironically, fairly photo-focused and didn't include the Jordan section.  But my jaw dropped a bit when Chris mentioned that the ES readout time is 25ms.  25ms!  On a 6K $5,000+ video-focused body released in 2025!  Also, the H.26whatever 6K that it records internally is only 4:2:0!  What's a guy gotta' do to get some chroma subsampling around here?  (Shoot ProRes, I guess, I think that's also internal).

Since the Z6 III has come up a few times in this discussion already, its rolling shutter is <10ms.  And sure, rolling shutter isn't the most important or only spec for a camera, but...  heck, the R5 II has something like 13ms in 8K!   

Even knowing that Leica's luxury brand pricing is detached from reality, it seems just brazen to release a camera with specs that were pretty good 3 years ago (when the S5 II was released) at this price point!  Guess they need to get some YouTubers to release a video that looks just like all their other videos and then insist that there's some special magic to the Leica image.  Someone call Pooter McCubbins or Cam Mackackackacky STAT!

All confirms what I have been saying about Panasonic soft-quit of high-end camera market!

Leica are charging $5300 for essentially same sensor as a 2018 Sony a7 iii (the 'basic model' at the time, and 7 years old now).

Panasonic have been unwilling or unable to find a replacement better spec / faster 24 megapixel sensor in all of those 7 years since the original S1 which again has the same fundamental sensor as the a7 iii, with phase-detect AF turned off via licensing agreement.

The SL3-S is another me-too full frame mirrorless camera which cannot stand apart from the competition in any meaningful way.

If Panasonic could design a proper camera body, they'd do an SL3-S with lighter materials and a bit smaller, like Sony do, but for half the price. Then it would be fine.

As it is, whole thing is a mess and I don't think it's going to sell.

Also on the SL3, the 60mp Sigma Fp-L and Sony a7 IV sensor is from a similar era, 2018-19.

So unless Panasonic is reserving the latest sensor technology for their cameras and Leica in the region of $5-7k gets the old shit, which doesn't seem to make much sense, I don't think we'll be seeing any high-end cameras from Panasonic this year or potentially ever.

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

Being realistic, any S1H successor has to at least match and preferably exceed the basic video specs of the Z6 iii e.g. full-frame UHD/6k video up to 60p with sub-10ms rolling shutter, otherwise there's no point (and even fewer sales)... This means a new (to Panasonic) sensor - the old 24MP sensor just won't cut it in that market any more.

Maybe the Leica SL line hasn't sold very well they were non-committal to it hence the old sensors.

I agree any higher-end Panasonic from now on has to be at least as good as a Z6 III, and that is being generous as the Nikon doesn't cost $3.5k

[BTM_Pix]

This announcement leaves me about as moist as one of their cakes.

[MrSMW]

20 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

This announcement leaves me about as moist as one of their cakes.

I was thinking about making a YouTube comparison but then decided it would simply be quicker to add a link to the 37x S5II’s for sale on MPB Eu at less than €1.5k a pop.

My maths tells me it’s +€4k to get one with a slightly better EVF and an arguably much better LCD, but with LUMIX spelt differently on the front.

I’m still hoping my previous ‘trade’ comment is a reality and hope  @Andrew Reid is wrong!

But if he isn’t, no biggie because I have an entire Sony A7RV kit already in the house and it’s bloody good…just not cross-compatible with my LUMIX video tools…😏

[ac6000cw]

12 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

So unless Panasonic is reserving the latest sensor technology for their cameras and Leica in the region of $5-7k gets the old shit, which doesn't seem to make much sense, I don't think we'll be seeing any high-end cameras from Panasonic this year or potentially ever.

Personally, I think they'll release a 60MP camera, probably in an S5ii body and priced somewhere between the A7CR and A7R V, obviously using much the same internals as the SL3.

As for an S1H successor - I wouldn't like to bet either way, with Nikon being pretty aggressive on pricing across the Z-range and Canon offering 8K60p on the R5 ii. Where would Panasonic position it in the market, with the S5iix already offering more video features than most people need or use at a sub-$2000 price, and maybe not having access to the high-end Sony sensors Nikon are using in the Z6 iii/Z8/Z9 (or at least not a price that would make sense commercially). Plus of course they have a video-orientated 'flagship' camera in the guise of the GH7...