Panasonic's "drastic surgery"

[ND64]

TV business is probably gone. 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-supplier-panasonic-cut-costs-101150905.html

A sword sharp enough that beheads the iconic Panasonic TV, can kill Panasonic camera too. 

[ac6000cw]

I think that if Panasonic had wanted to just kill off the entire camera division, they'd probably have done it a few years ago, before committing to development and production of the S5 and GH6. They've culled the product range presumably down to what is (or is projected to be) profitable (which in the UK seems to be basically the FF S5D, S5ii/iix, S9, the MFT GH7, G9ii, GH5ii, G97, G100D, the superzoom FZ2000, FZ82 and the compact TZ99). So a few cameras in each sensor size.

From what I've read occasionally, the lower-end Panasonic TVs have been more-or-less badge-engineered products from one or more of the big low-cost manufacturers for some time. So it wouldn't surprise me if they basically licensed the brand name (for TVs) to one of those and stopped in-house TV development and production.

[Andrew Reid]

The A/V companies have already recently been restructured which is partly why the pro-AV releases are so low key, and there's no cinema camera line-up any more - this part of the business was essentially nuked and anything remaining merged into the consumer side.

At least as I understand it, Panasonic will continue in consumer cameras... for now... but the professional side of things is ending.

And the consumer cameras will be a very low priority compared to the higher-margin parts of the business like batteries and whatever the fuck they think AI is useful for.

In the report the exec. uttered a very taboo word in the corporate world, which was "sentimental"...

Shareholders don't get rich from sentimentality and culturally important products like TVs, cameras or hifi.

They want the big growth areas and bubbles to rise up and take over, and for anything else to fade away including LUMIX.

The top Japanese execs at Panasonic attach a high sentimental value to their top consumer products of the past like TVs and cameras.

They want to continue.

They are one activist shareholder away from being forced to back down on that and then we will see the end of LUMIX altogether.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

I love Lumix, but I suspect that if they don't get some traction in the next 2-3 years, they will "close" and just staying doing Leica develompments.

[Andrew Reid]

There are rumours that Leica are unhappy with Panasonic and might scope out a deal with Sony in future.

Leica own the rights to L-mount so they can keep that and still go Sony, they don't have to take E-mount as well.

Panasonic of all the camera companies aside from OM Shit and Ricohdear are most in danger of being really on the rocks.

Like I say just one activist shareholder away from being less of a sentimental business.

Less of an enthusiast enterprise, more of a topic of euthanasia.

[BTM_Pix]

23 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Like I say just one activist shareholder away from being less of a sentimental business.

Yeah, and he will be saying that the amount of people who are riding round Japan on these e-bikes means that they are making far more dosh designing appropriately sized panniers and baskets to be arsed about designing new appropriately sized MFT cameras.

[Andrew Reid]

The little girl looks like how I look at the camera shop windows.

From basket-case to basket manufacturer, that suits Panasonic. I think with all the Tesla batteries, they'll be ok without TVs and cameras.

Unless somehow the cameras justify their reduced presence by being relevant to other divisions... like AI imaging tech, and as a way to keep hold of their imaging engineers.

Panasonic could still turn things around this year by...

Higher-end S9, with built in EVF and new sensor, no crop 4K/60, and a nifty fast readout to make it more usable without a mechanical shutter for stills.

S1H Mark II with stacked sensor, 8K, but as small as a Sony a1.

S1 Mark II which sits above the S5 Mark II, but actually has a soul and looks like a proper camera or a Fuji.

But we all know none of this is going to happen at this point 🙂

If it was, it would have already!

[IronFilm]

Multiple businesses? Yikes, hope that does not include LUMIX. 

On 2/6/2025 at 1:16 AM, ac6000cw said:

I think that if Panasonic had wanted to just kill off the entire camera division, they'd probably have done it a few years ago, before committing to development and production of the S5 and GH6.

True, but it's also not unheard of for massive company cuts to come out of the blue. 

On 2/6/2025 at 1:16 AM, ac6000cw said:

They've culled the product range presumably down to what is (or is projected to be) profitable

The people inside LUMIX might have already seen the writing on the wall for the last few years and thus were trying their best to boost their financial stats with a slimmed down range, but will it be enough for survival? I guess we'll see how 2025 goes.

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

There are rumours that Leica are unhappy with Panasonic and might scope out a deal with Sony in future.

Leica own the rights to L-mount so they can keep that and still go Sony, they don't have to take E-mount as well.

Yikes! If we saw an A7CR with an L Mount and a red dot, then that would be big scary writing on the wall indeed for Panasonic. 

 

[Andrew Reid]

I reckon Sony / Leica pair-up does have a nice ring to it doesn't it?

It's a Sony sensor they are using anyway so may as well cut out the middle man.

It's most likely more cost effective to do this as well?

Sony could build a very nice Leica Q, as they already have done similar cameras with the RX1 series.

Sony would not cannibalise Leica's L-mount lenses with their own range either.

It would be bad for Panasonic.

But then Panasonic are more committed to green energy like batteries and digging up all the lithium for them in epic quantities.

Truly a planet saving initiative.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 2/6/2025 at 3:40 PM, Andrew Reid said:

The little girl looks like how I look at the camera shop windows.

From basket-case to basket manufacturer, that suits Panasonic. I think with all the Tesla batteries, they'll be ok without TVs and cameras.

Unless somehow the cameras justify their reduced presence by being relevant to other divisions... like AI imaging tech, and as a way to keep hold of their imaging engineers.

Panasonic could still turn things around this year by...

Higher-end S9, with built in EVF and new sensor, no crop 4K/60, and a nifty fast readout to make it more usable without a mechanical shutter for stills.

S1H Mark II with stacked sensor, 8K, but as small as a Sony a1.

S1 Mark II which sits above the S5 Mark II, but actually has a soul and looks like a proper camera or a Fuji.

But we all know none of this is going to happen at this point 🙂

If it was, it would have already!

I understand the decision to just go FF, but if Panasonic make a APS-C GX9 with the 26mp sensor that Fuji and Sony uses, with a good EVF, IBIS and LUTs system, I would jump from Fuji in the next day.

[Al Dolega]

I always wanted Panasonic to do an APS-C m4/3 camera, like the JVC LS300 but in photo form factor. Let us get wacky with those crop options! Squeeze every drop out of your m4/3 lenses!

Similarly, they could do a "FF GX9" or "S9 deluxe", market it as an APS-C camera with bonus sensor area! It has reverse crop factor! Can your Canonykonujympuseica do that?!? Would just need some compact lenses, pancake or zoom. They could even be APS-C designs, just with an L-mount. Some APS-C zooms cover FF at certain focal lengths anyways.

[Ninpo33]

2 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

I always wanted Panasonic to do an APS-C m4/3 camera, like the JVC LS300 but in photo form factor. Let us get wacky with those crop options! Squeeze every drop out of your m4/3 lenses!

Similarly, they could do a "FF GX9" or "S9 deluxe", market it as an APS-C camera with bonus sensor area! It has reverse crop factor! Can your Canonykonujympuseica do that?!? Would just need some compact lenses, pancake or zoom. They could even be APS-C designs, just with an L-mount. Some APS-C zooms cover FF at certain focal lengths anyways.

Don’t you already have that though with pixel to pixel and S35 modes? Also, Leica has some stellar APSC L mount lenses. What would be the point of making a dedicated APS-C camera at this point in the game?

[Ninpo33]

On 2/6/2025 at 6:03 PM, Andrew Reid said:

I reckon Sony / Leica pair-up does have a nice ring to it doesn't it?

It's a Sony sensor they are using anyway so may as well cut out the middle man.

It's most likely more cost effective to do this as well?

There’s a rumor that the S1Rii that might be announced next week and will have a different sensor that’s in the SL-3. Will be interesting to see where things fall with LUMIX moving forward in 2025. Maybe this is the shift away from the previous partnership?

I would love to see Sony give up the 50mp sensor that’s in the original A1. Get a $3,500 version of the A1 from LUMIX here soon? Yes please. 

 

[Al Dolega]

3 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

Don’t you already have that though with pixel to pixel and S35 modes? Also, Leica has some stellar APSC L mount lenses. What would be the point of making a dedicated APS-C camera at this point in the game?

No, because neither of those give you a larger sensor, just different aspects (via cropping from the full image circle). With an oversized sensor you can do different aspects without cropping out any of the image circle. I think it was the GH2 that had a slight version of this, not as large as full APS-C but it was a few mm bigger than a typical m4/3 sensor.

3 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

Maybe this is the shift away from the previous partnership?

I wouldn't read that far into it. Panasonic has always used sensors from a few different suppliers. The S1R sensor and the newest m4/3 sensor (GH6, GH7, G9ii) are supposedly not from Sony.

[ac6000cw]

10 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

I think it was the GH2 that had a slight version of this,

The LX100 & LX100 ii also had it for stills (different aspect ratio crops out of 16MP & 20MP m4/3 sensors, but none gave you the full sensor area).

[John Matthews]

18 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

I understand the decision to just go FF, but if Panasonic make a APS-C GX9 with the 26mp sensor that Fuji and Sony uses, with a good EVF, IBIS and LUTs system, I would jump from Fuji in the next day.

It won't happen because it wouldn't have functional IBIS, a feature that everyone knows panasonic for, unless you're talking about a M43 crop on a S35 sensor. I don't see the point. They just want you to buy a S5 or S9.

3 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

The LX100 & LX100 ii also had it for stills (different aspect ratio crops out of 16MP & 20MP m4/3 sensors, but none gave you the full sensor area).

The LX100/ii series had the standard 16MP and 20MP sensors respectively, but they included "cropping" features. The GH2 and the GH5S were the only ones that had the larger sensors with 1.86x crop (I believe). I don't believe the GH5S had crop modes like the GH2 though. Both cameras didn't have IBIS.

[ac6000cw]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

The LX100/ii series had the standard 16MP and 20MP sensors respectively, but they included "cropping" features.

They contained MFT sensors, but never used the full area of it (I owned an LX100 for few years) - see the interactive graphic here: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-lx100

It's the same basic idea that the GH2 used (which had an 18.3MP larger-than-MFT sensor, with a maximum of 16MP used).

On the LX100, the highest pixel count aspect-ratio was 4:3 giving 12.7MP out of 16MP:

 

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, ac6000cw said:

They contained MFT sensors, but never used the full area of it (I owned an LX100 for few years) - see the interactive graphic here: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-lx100

It's the same basic idea that the GH2 used (which had an 18.3MP larger-than-MFT sensor, with a maximum of 16MP used).

On the LX100, the highest pixel count aspect-ratio was 4:3 giving 12.7MP out of 16MP:

 

Yes, that's right. The GH2 and LX100 sensors were worlds apart, possibly having completely different suppliers too. The GH2 had 16MP in 3:4, 2:3, and 16:9 ratios, but not the 1:1 oddly.

[Andrew Reid]

6 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Yes, that's right. The GH2 and LX100 sensors were worlds apart, possibly having completely different suppliers too. The GH2 had 16MP in 3:4, 2:3, and 16:9 ratios, but not the 1:1 oddly.

Why are you dragging the topic into aspect ratios when the thread is called "Panasonic drastic surgery"?

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, John Matthews said:

The LX100/ii series had the standard 16MP and 20MP sensors respectively, but they included "cropping" features. The GH2 and the GH5S were the only ones that had the larger sensors with 1.86x crop (I believe). I don't believe the GH5S had crop modes like the GH2 though. Both cameras didn't have IBIS.

That's what I remember as well, the LX100 sensors had standard size MFT sensors (not the oversized GH2/GH5S "MFT sensors"), but the LX100 lens designs were for slightly smaller than MFT size (thus they were extra compact sized) which made the LX100 sensors "oversized" (allowing for their multi aspect ratio design) relative to the lens being used on them.