Lumix S1RII coming soon

[eatstoomuchjam]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

It's bad for a camera, especially one that has active cooling, to overheat, yes. Is it a deal breaker? That's up to people to decide for themselves. But a camera should be able to reliably perform in every mode that is offered. I think going the S9 route, where it has a limit by default for more taxing modes, and then giving people the option but a warning to get rid of the limits, was a better way to handle it.

I think we've disagreed about this in the past and we continue to disagree about it.  The camera reliably performs, in that when it overheats, it warns the user and then shuts down.  And again, at least in Gerald's 21C basement, that was more than 1 hour of continuous recording in the most taxing mode.  He also got it to record for over 4 hours by using an external drive and external power, only shutting it off when it became obvious that it wasn't going to overheat.

This doesn't mean that the camera is unreliable - it means that you should understand your gear and its capabilities before bringing it on a shoot.  If you need to shoot continuous shots lasting more than an hour, use external power and an external drive.  If not, internal battery+storage will probably be fine since the camera will have more time to cool between takes.

Anyway.  It's not a camera for me since it doesn't do anything better than cameras that I already own and I don't have any L mount glass, but if I were an L mount shooter looking for a decent hybrid camera costing less than the Leica flagship, I think it'd be a no-brainer.

 

[Davide DB]

15 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If you're talking about Gerald's review, he said "An hour and 18 minutes." (about 18:30 in the video)

Yes my bad. I skipped one hour

[Davide DB]

35 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Well that’s not very good is it!

And somewhat surprising as I have had my S5ii’s rolling for over an hour @35+ direct sunlight in 6k 30p. Never even had a warning.

Very odd.

It was a typo: 1h 18' sorry

Anyway this is the first time I hear something like that from a Lumix camera. How it will perform in the Mediterranean area in summer?

This guy got overheating under the sun without even recording (26:55)

 

[KnightsFan]

59 minutes ago, ND64 said:

In cvp video the RS was noticeable even on the face of the guy when they were trying to test the AF. Its not just "ok I don't pan and tilt like a maniac". With such a slow sensor you should also worry about the movements of the subjects. 

I don't know which settings CVP used for that shot, but if they weren't using DR extended mode, the 25 ms 16:9 FF mode is not far off from the S5II's 22ms. Now I've said many times in the past that rolling shutter is the only part of the S5's image that I dislike, so I'm totally with you in absolute terms, and I personally am willing to pay more to get faster readout. So yeah I think for me personally, I'd be willing to pay more for a stacked sensor competitor, but many people are happy with the S5II or even A7IV, so all in all it's not terrible, if you view the extended DR as a specialty tool rather than the default. That's my opinion anyway.

[Andrew Reid]

14bit sensor mode 31ms 8K rolling shutter.

12bit sensor mode 24ms 8K rolling shutter.

The year is 2025.

Canon solved this problem in 2020 (R5) and Sony in 2021 (a1), also Nikon too.

So we now have to assume Panasonic have retreated from the cutting edge or at least are giving the impression that their cameras are underperforming relative to the competition.

This is a flagship camera and it should really be better.

We also now have the partially stacked Z6 III with the very fast readout speeds.

On the overheating side, that's another sign Panasonic have cheaped-out with the less-than cutting edge semiconductor tech inside.

That said, the price is $3000 not $4000 or $6000, right?

But then again... what is the fucking point of this camera.

Is it to make mainstream working pros swoon and dump their Sony a1 or Nikon Z8 and move over to L-mount at the cost of $20k in lenses and a new camera?

Does Panasonic think this is realistic? I don't.

So is the point to make a truly unique "artisan" tool aka Sigma and Leica to capture a niche with a high margin to justify lower volume sales?

No, because then the S1R II wouldn't look like a fucking dumpling or some sort of office tool would it?

So I think it will struggle to attract either a niche customer or a mainstream one, and might even struggle to attract Panasonic's existing customers like me.

I am really lukewarm on it!

[eatstoomuchjam]

23 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

But then again... what is the fucking point of this camera.

If I had to guess, it's "try to stop the few photographers who are using Panasonic from jumping ship."  At this point, almost nobody who is starting out is going to opt for Panasonic, other than as a value option - and those people are way more likely to go S1 than S1R II.

Though even for those photographers, I'm not sure that about the same number of megapixels and vaguely similar IQ, but nicer (but confusing) video is really a "spend $3,000" sort of thing.

So I guess I'm talking myself out of thinking that this is a good answer to that question.

[independent]

YouTube shills convinced me.

Not the ultimate hybrid we need, but the one we deserve. An overheating R5 with magic lantern rolling shutter

[Django]

Like I said earlier, open gate is very appealing to me and currently Panny are the only hybrid cams doing it. But with 37ms RS in 6K it’s basically useless. I also like what they did with S9 allowing you to stack LUTs and adjust opacity in cam etc. Even vertical aspect ratio. Panasonic have real useful features for the working videographer/filmmaker but always seem to drop the ball somewhere. Not by much but enough for me to look elsewhere. Here it feels they’re playing catchup with a way overdue model. The absence of a stacked sensor or even semi stacked sticks out like a sore thumb..

[Andrew Reid]

Media Division the only one who isn't a shill.

Surprisingly good low light performance, and the rolling shutter can vary quite a bit.

However for me, the specs are the least of the S1R II's problem.

It will fail on the market.

[Andrew Reid]

Here's why

https://www.eoshd.com/opinion/panasonic-s1r-ii-great-spec-dying-brand/

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

About sensors...I guess that some brands could develop, or financially pay the development, of some Sony sensors, splitting the costs between the brand and Sony Semiconductor by alowing the sensor (or some variation based on the same "foundation") to be sold to some brands after some time.

This was VERY evident with the Sony APS-C 26mp sensor. Sony kept the old 24mp sensor with that horrible rolling shutter for ages in their A6xxx line, and Fujifilm had a 26mp much faster sensor made by Sony. After some years...presto, Sony used a Bayer version with some updates in their A6700 and FX30.

The stacked Nikon Z9/Z9 sensor probably is the same case - developed or codeveloped by Nikon, be exclusive for some time, could be available down the line (and maybe Panasonic is waiting for it for a stacked sensor version of this new camera).

Maybe even the "mysterious" supplier of the 25mp m4/3 sensor of the G9 II / GH7 is Sony too - but Panasonic have an exclusivity clause for it for some time, and that's why OM had to go to the stacked 20mp sensor (and, in reverse, this 20mp stacked is exclusive to OM for some time).

[eatstoomuchjam]

The great low light performance lends some credibility to the idea that it's using the same sensor as (or a very similar sensor to) the Ronin 4D.  I don't have an FX3 to test against, but some reviewers had said that the 6K performed better or similar to the FX3 and the 8K seems even cleaner.

If it's the same sensor (or a variation of it), that might be a reason that people would opt for the S1R II.  The image from the Ronin 4D 8K is really nice.  

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

And it looks like there is no timecode input

Nooooooooooo

17 hours ago, Jahleh said:

After trying GH7 I bought her as a present

Could I be your wife please?

8 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

I also agree with Gerald Undone's comment that it should have a general no-oversampling/low rolling shutter option in addition to the normal/extended DR switch. The (line-skipped) 4k120p is around 8ms RS, so we know it's possible, albeit with less DR and less sharpness etc.

Yes, 8ms RS is very good. 

And people won't care about a minor image quality hit in the types of scenes you'd want an excellent RS score for (such as in fight scenes, or a car crash, or whatever). Heck, those are the types of scenes people might even use a GoPro in! 

This would be the best of all worlds, super high quality S1RII files during normal filming such as dialogue scenes, then switch over to the low RS mode for the high octane action scenes.

 

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Anyway, as for the RS and the overheating, they both seem to be a molehill that people are making into a mountain.  Is 24ms great?  No.  Is it fine for most people?  Yeah, pretty much.  Is it bad for a camera to overheat after more than an hour in its most taxing internal recording mode?  If you need to routinely run 2-hour interviews with a single take, yes, then it is not the camera for you.  If you are pausing even for a minute or two between takes, will you overheat?  I guess that remains to be seen, but I'm guessing no.

I'm not too bothered about 8K overheating, because has anybody tested overheating in 4K or 6K modes? As if the S1RII is rock solid in those modes, at least you then have an option which works for the types of shoots where you need rock solid reliability.

8 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I've only seen over heating in 8K running non-stop for an hour. Has it appeared elsewhere? I'm not sure if there are other cameras that can even manage that?

Yeah people might have unreasonable expectations; simply because Panasonic has been so good in the past they've set expectations for Panasonic very high. 

Does there even exist an 8K hybrid camera that can shoot 8K without overheating??

6 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

It's launch price is $400 cheaper in cash terms than the S1r was at launch in 2019, which means if you allow for US inflation of 26% over that time it's about 40% cheaper in real terms than the OG S1r - with much better video and AF performance, in a smaller and lighter body.

That's a good way to look at the value of the S1RII

Am glad it supports the DMW-XLR2 audio interface.

6 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

And boy, they spent in marketing this time. Even got some small youtube channels to Europe, and even in the hands of a (very good) photographer here in Brazil, which as far as I remember NEVER received a pre-unit to look (albeit him being a Canon shooter for decades).

Tromsø isn't a cheap place to be living in either, if you're going to be covering people's costs to visit. 

 

[Ninpo33]

8 hours ago, Simon Young said:

Maybe great for stills but underwhelming for video. Disgraceful RS numbers and no OLPF.

Why the hell would you put an OLPF in a photography focused stills camera? Obviously this is geared for photography so is it surprising the video performance isn't what we want for the S1H II ? RS isn’t as big a deal as you seem to make it for the rest of us but whatever. If anything all this does is show me what we might be able to expect from the next model that IS for pro level video. 

[newfoundmass]

I consider The Hybrid Shooter to be unbiased and he is very happy with the camera. He is, though, what his name suggests: a hybrid shooter, so this is kind of a camera made for him. 

 

[newfoundmass]

Vistek used it on a real shoot, using it both for photo and video. Has a lot of good things to say and actually put it through it's paces. 

[newfoundmass]

Currently watching Hugh Brownstone's video. He isn't someone I'd consider a shill at all. He seems very excited about it. He's very thoughtful. Says it compares well to the A7RV.

[ND64]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Does there even exist an 8K hybrid camera that can shoot 8K without overheating??

None of them equipped with active cooling system, including Z8, that in 8k30 h.265 mode you run out of battery sooner than overheat icon appears. 

[MrSMW]

8 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If I had to guess, it's "try to stop the few photographers who are using Panasonic from jumping ship."

And one of those people is me.

I have struggled with the stills side of L Mount ever since I moved to it from Fuji X.

The OG S1R was the closest, but never had the lenses until recently and now it would be a big move for me to go back to that having a smaller, lighter, MUCH faster and generally more capable Sony A7RV.

The image out of the SL2 would do it for me, but the S1R is a better camera to actually use in real life.

The SL3 is the only Leica that actually ticks all my boxes for stills, but is ridiculous in price.

Sigma design I think is fanfuckingtastic, but otherwise their cameras are far too compromised for my use case.

The S1Rii could have been the one and but for the sensor, would have gone for it as it does just about enough everywhere else.

The body size & weight and ergos gets a tick.

The rear screen is better than the S5ii, but the res is not as good as I would have liked.

Shutter feel and sound still unknown.

But it’s the sensor for me not being the 61mp of the FP-L/SL-3/A7RV that was the ultimate deciding factor for me.

53 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Currently watching Hugh Brownstone's video. He isn't someone I'd consider a shill at all. He seems very excited about it. He's very thoughtful. Says it compares well to the A7RV.

And the benchmark for me, but not watched his review.

In fact I have only watched 2.5 reviews of this camera and seen enough.

The S1Rii had to at least equal, if not beat the A7RV and IMO, it does not.

Final nail in the coffin = €3600 preorder price vs €2300 trade in on my A7RV?

Err, no.