Panasonic Lumix S1R Mark II coming soon

[ita149]

17 hours ago, j_one said:

You sure about this? Or just speculation based on the online comparisons?

The internal processing of the S5ii is almost offensive when compared to the previous gen, but I hardly notice it in practice since it’s less aggressive in Vlog. And I really only shoot in vlog or burnt LUT.

The bigger issue on that camera is the green tint to the noise floor in the internal codecs that is visible as soon as 1-2 stops under, and that seems to be pretty much gone in the S1rii.

I’ll agree though I was looking forward to their first internal raw recording in full frame, but it is what it is. Reminds me of how I always cropped in on the a7rii for anything video for the best rendering.

 

No, I'm not sure, this is the first thing I will test when I receive the camera.

Since I like to crop and extract picture from my videos I can see a big difference between the image processing of the S5II and the S5, I agree V-log is a bit better than the standard profiles, even more in 4k. The S1RII at least seems to keep good quality when using the High stabilisation mode in 4k thanks to the 8k sensor.

About the green tint, the last firmware fixed it for me or I was lucky ...

Yes I hope they will add 8k raw internal though.

[ita149]

13 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I very much prefer the image of the OG S5 over the S5II X, but people really make a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to the "worse" image. It's really not that bad. In the year I've had it not one client or viewer has complained about the image; in fact it has been the exact opposite! I feel like cameras have plateaued so now people over analyze and overstate every little thing. But virtually all of this stuff doesn't matter to the audience that we are creating these images for.

Anyone with any discernible talent will be able to take the S1RII and create compelling images with it. That bride is going to love the pictures you take, the corporate client is going to be ecstatic with the talking head interviews you shoot, the MMA school is going to be psyched with the promotional video you film, etc. As long as it's in focus, the colors are okay, and it's framed well, these folks aren't going to really care if it's a little noisier than the R5II or if the rolling shutter is slightly worse than the A7RV.

I don't know how it is where you all live, but there are literally people making money using cheap Canon Rebel DSLRs and kit lenses in my area. I see friends post their wedding pictures, their kid's senior portraits, baby pictures, and all of that stuff on Facebook all of the time. Most of the time these photographers aren't even good at what they do, put people I know still go crazy over them and post these photos they paid for proudly on social media! These photographers still get paid work, not just because they are cheap (that certainly helps!) but because the average person's standards aren't all that high. That's not to say that we should lower our standards, just that we should remember the big picture (no pun intended) and stop worrying about the small things that aren't going to matter to 99.9% of our clients/audience.

I disagree, I really think the video engine is worse, of course much more when using the standard profiles. In 4K the level of details is low but yet these details are over-sharpened. In 5,9K/6K, there are more details but the bad sharpening is annoying. 

Of course most clients don't see the difference but they can't really see the difference between 4k or 1080P either ...
So if use high resolution video modes I want the best quality for cropping, for extract stills etc. If not, even an old GH2 is largely enough to create beautiful images. 

From my point of view, lowering image quality is never a great thing, I  just hope the S1RII will be closer to the S1 and S5 than the S5II.

 

[Alt Shoo]

I get that people love to dissect every little thing, but as someone working with some of the biggest media companies, I can tell you that a lot of these so called issues don’t even come up in real world professional work. The S1R II delivers solid image quality, stabilization, and dynamic range. More than enough to create high level content. I’m not saying don’t analyze your tools, but at some point, you have to ask, is this actually making you a better filmmaker, or just keeping you stuck in analysis paralysis? If your priority is making great content, you’ll be just fine.

[Jahleh]

7 hours ago, ita149 said:

I disagree, I really think the video engine is worse, of course much more when using the standard profiles. In 4K the level of details is low but yet these details are over-sharpened. In 5,9K/6K, there are more details but the bad sharpening is annoying. 

Of course most clients don't see the difference but they can't really see the difference between 4k or 1080P either ...
So if use high resolution video modes I want the best quality for cropping, for extract stills etc. If not, even an old GH2 is largely enough to create beautiful images. 

From my point of view, lowering image quality is never a great thing, I  just hope the S1RII will be closer to the S1 and S5 than the S5II.

 

S5ii had improvements over orig S5, but lower level of details with oversharpening was annoying, even with 6k VLog and also with a LUT burnt in. It was especially noticeable on extracted stills when viewed from a big screen. 

If you check Connor McCaskill’s latest S1Rii Youtube clip, he has a download link to his footage. Had a play on resolve, and damn, S1Rii IQ looks definitely better and different than what came from S5ii sensor. Grades pretty effortlessly too. 

The only downside with Z6iii NRaw along the big file sizes is the NR. Don’t know if the full M4 Max chip is enough to play the timeline in real time with NR, and it is expensive.
Have a PC with 5800x CPU and RTX 3080 GPU too and editing is more stuttery with it than with M3 Pro Macbook. 
The latest Nvidia 5xxx GPUs have 4:2:2 support now, but they are not cheap either, and I prefer the ease of using macOS. 
A new camera usually means you need to get a new computer for editing too, but with S1Rii that does not seem to be the case. Even M1 Pro would be fine

[stephen]

1 hour ago, Jahleh said:

Don’t know if the full M4 Max chip is enough to play the timeline in real time with NR, and it is expensive.

You can always use optimizations and make timeline with NR and lots of color grading play in real time. For Example - Top Menu ->Timeline -> Timeline playback resolution -> Half or even Quarter.  In most cases Half or 1080p from 4K would be enough.

[Jahleh]

27 minutes ago, stephen said:

You can always use optimizations and make timeline with NR and lots of color grading play in real time. For Example - Top Menu ->Timeline -> Timeline playback resolution -> Half or even Quarter.  In most cases Half or 1080p from 4K would be enough.

Been using this a bit already and you can drop decode quality in Raw tab from Full to half or quarter. The viewer quality is then quite bad, but works enough for being able to sync audio. Caching or exporting to Prores422HQ also helps with Magic masks.
I had just almost forgotten how easy H.265 4:2:0 is for M chips. But S1Rii 8.1k and 6.4k being only max 30p using speed warp in Resolve is at least as heavy as NR.

[j_one]

10 hours ago, Alt Shoo said:

I get that people love to dissect every little thing, but as someone working with some of the biggest media companies, I can tell you that a lot of these so called issues don’t even come up in real world professional work. The S1R II delivers solid image quality, stabilization, and dynamic range. More than enough to create high level content. I’m not saying don’t analyze your tools, but at some point, you have to ask, is this actually making you a better filmmaker, or just keeping you stuck in analysis paralysis? If your priority is making great content, you’ll be just fine.

I hear you for sure. You’re definitely right.

I think the point behind the nitpicking is to figure out where the current gen Lumix bodies stand in comparison to the competition and last gen, including IQ. It’s been a while since they released a pro body like this so it’s good to see where their focus is now in their positioning within the pro market.

Things like downscaling and cropping do factor in to purchase choices just like features, ergonomics, and reliability do. Some want paint brushes. Some want tested utilitarian tools. Some want some balanced mix of both for their money. It may or may not make a difference; some of us just want to know what’s happening under the hood.

Because if we’re gonna say that clients don’t really care what we see, how come most of us don’t just pick up a few secondhand 5D3/D810/A7Sii/GH5/C100/P6k/FS7 and call it a day? Some answers to this may reveal legit analysis paralysis. Others, not so much. 

It’s something every artist or business has to answer for themselves. Like I really don’t care for the FX6 since what I have is good enough, but if owning one fits well into existing clients’ workflows AND gets me more jobs then hey it’s time to consider upgrading.

(Remembering that we’re pages deep into a topic discussing video performance for a supposedly photo-focused camera model haha)

[Ninpo33]

9 hours ago, j_one said:

I hear you for sure. You’re definitely right.

I think the point behind the nitpicking is to figure out where the current gen Lumix bodies stand in comparison to the competition and last gen, including IQ. It’s been a while since they released a pro body like this so it’s good to see where their focus is now in their positioning within the pro market.

Things like downscaling and cropping do factor in to purchase choices just like features, ergonomics, and reliability do. Some want paint brushes. Some want tested utilitarian tools. Some want some balanced mix of both for their money. It may or may not make a difference; some of us just want to know what’s happening under the hood.

Because if we’re gonna say that clients don’t really care what we see, how come most of us don’t just pick up a few secondhand 5D3/D810/A7Sii/GH5/C100/P6k/FS7 and call it a day? Some answers to this may reveal legit analysis paralysis. Others, not so much. 

It’s something every artist or business has to answer for themselves. Like I really don’t care for the FX6 since what I have is good enough, but if owning one fits well into existing clients’ workflows AND gets me more jobs then hey it’s time to consider upgrading.

(Remembering that we’re pages deep into a topic discussing video performance for a supposedly photo-focused camera model haha)

Exactly...

Dissecting every little stat on paper and arguing in YouTube comments over various cameras is one thing... but there's something to be said for mastering your craft and learning your tools. I research the shit out of gear and then after I pull the trigger on a purchase I rarely look back. I keep my cameras, lenses, lights etc...for YEARS. Really knowing how you can push a camera or other tool while out in the field is a solid skill. I have worked with so many camera ops, even DP's on set who said to me, "Oh, I didn't even know this camera had that mode/function... 

But alternatively, I was working as a 1st AD on a small indie feature a few years back and that DP was really, really good. He was the one person on set who was getting paid full rate. And it was worth paying him with how tight and efficient he was. He also was really good at After Effects and compositing as well as color grading and was going to end up doing that stuff later in post. I'll never forget the lesson I learned on a very full day watching him shoot. He was so efficient with our massive shot list and there were a lot of times we thought we had to go again for third and fourth takes. I would walk over to the director and make sure we were good because I would notice little continuity mistakes or other issues and the DP would always dismiss me. Later at lunch he explained that he knew what we needed and that the background was going to be replaced in post, or he was just going to mask off the extra that walked into the frame etc... So many other inexperienced directors/DP's would have spent hours "getting it right" but been behind all day. So my parallel with the S1Rii here is that I want to be able to put it through its paces and how it will stand up to certain things. I want to know that if I'm shooting an event that I can shoot a wide video clip and know that later I can extract a few cropped stills and it will hold up. Because this is a hybrid camera, I want to really know if it will act like one when pushed. Of course we know it will be fine for most things and the 4k will be great but some of us are looking to push it. 

[Alt Shoo]

I get where you’re coming from, and I understand that different workflows exist for different reasons. But at some point, you have to ask, are we pushing our tools to be better storytellers, or just finding ways to avoid tightening up our craft? There’s a difference between efficiency and just being lazy. If someone is taking multiple takes to get it right, that’s not always inexperience. It’s making sure the shot actually works without needing to “fix it in post.” On the other hand, the mindset of shooting carelessly and relying on post production isn’t efficiency, it’s a crutch.

Regarding not using older gear, some people don’t use those older cameras simply because they want to make their job easier. Newer cameras offer better usability, faster workflows, etc. but still, as everyone allegedly already knows, you can still achieve a high quality look with older gear. It just comes down to experience and knowing how to work with what you have.

At the end of the day, I don’t see top level professionals getting caught up in these debates. They pick their tools, use the features that matter, and get the job done. Ninpo33 mentioned a DP who didn’t realize a camera had a particular function…because that DP focused on what helped him execute, not on obsessing over every technical option. That’s the difference between using your gear and getting lost in it.

[ita149]

19 hours ago, Jahleh said:

S5ii had improvements over orig S5, but lower level of details with oversharpening was annoying, even with 6k VLog and also with a LUT burnt in. It was especially noticeable on extracted stills when viewed from a big screen. 

If you check Connor McCaskill’s latest S1Rii Youtube clip, he has a download link to his footage. Had a play on resolve, and damn, S1Rii IQ looks definitely better and different than what came from S5ii sensor. Grades pretty effortlessly too. 

The only downside with Z6iii NRaw along the big file sizes is the NR. Don’t know if the full M4 Max chip is enough to play the timeline in real time with NR, and it is expensive.
Have a PC with 5800x CPU and RTX 3080 GPU too and editing is more stuttery with it than with M3 Pro Macbook. 
The latest Nvidia 5xxx GPUs have 4:2:2 support now, but they are not cheap either, and I prefer the ease of using macOS. 
A new camera usually means you need to get a new computer for editing too, but with S1Rii that does not seem to be the case. Even M1 Pro would be fine

Indeed, it's also why I kept my pre-order, the files from the S1RII look much better in 4K than on the S5II.
I agree about the Z6III, and the IBIS looks really better on the S1RII too.

Anyway it seems some people totally missed my point, of course most clients don't see the difference but if you want the best quality, by example to extract stills or viewing your footage on a big screen, even for family stuff, the S5 and S1 internal recording is just much better than on the S5II. I loved Panasonic before the S5II because their camera had a video IQ very close to stills. 
But if the aim is to shoot only for clients (and most of them can't see a difference between 2k and 4k resolution), yes the S5II is clearly the better choice, especially because of the much better AF and IBIS in video.

 

[PannySVHS]

There are discussions about specs and there are discussions about discussions which are about specs. This is the thread to find both of them.😊

It´s also the right place to ask, if anyone in this thread would love to do a Lumix S series "challenge" of filming fun and task?

Who would like to participate? How about some telelens action, 70 to 200mm range fi? Urban life, 120p slowmo, leaves and trees in a captivating montage? What else comes to mind? You name it.

[ntblowz]

 

[Ninpo33]

17 hours ago, Alt Shoo said:

I get where you’re coming from, and I understand that different workflows exist for different reasons. But at some point, you have to ask, are we pushing our tools to be better storytellers, or just finding ways to avoid tightening up our craft? There’s a difference between efficiency and just being lazy. If someone is taking multiple takes to get it right, that’s not always inexperience. It’s making sure the shot actually works without needing to “fix it in post.” On the other hand, the mindset of shooting carelessly and relying on post production isn’t efficiency, it’s a crutch.

Regarding not using older gear, some people don’t use those older cameras simply because they want to make their job easier. Newer cameras offer better usability, faster workflows, etc. but still, as everyone allegedly already knows, you can still achieve a high quality look with older gear. It just comes down to experience and knowing how to work with what you have.

At the end of the day, I don’t see top level professionals getting caught up in these debates. They pick their tools, use the features that matter, and get the job done. Ninpo33 mentioned a DP who didn’t realize a camera had a particular function…because that DP focused on what helped him execute, not on obsessing over every technical option. That’s the difference between using your gear and getting lost in it.

Nah, you missed my points big time. I kind of feel like you have an idea about things and aren’t really looking to hear or grow from other peoples experiences but just keep doubling down on your own hot takes. That’s fine. 
 

For clarification, the DP I mentioned who was well versed in post production was shooting to get exactly what he needed and not wasting time with shots or elements they weren’t going to use. The only reason he was that efficient was because he was dialed in to how to best achieve what he needed and how to use after effects so well. He wasn’t “fixing it in post”. He was “shooting for the edit” not for “excessive coverage” and wasting everyone’s time. Much like how David Fincher works if your familiar with his subtle use of VFX in narrative storytelling. 
 

And the other DP/Operator was an ass. He bought an FX6 and a barely knew how to use it but would book jobs anyway and literally be reading the manuals on breaks in between takes. He was lost, but definitely not in technical specs. 
 

When you say that pros aren’t on here talking about camera gear, how do you know? Do you know who’s on here and what they do? Also, many of the guys I’m friends with here in LA go to trade shows and meet up at companies when new products come out. They beta test stuff and talk directly to the engineers and then we all chat about it over dinner or coffee. You’re way off if you think the conversations don’t sound like how we talk here. Camera guys nerd out on camera gear, they just do it in private circles with other pros. 

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, ntblowz said:

 

Summary = prefers the Lumix over the Sony and will be selling the Sony as a result.

To be fair, he also owns an S5iix and an S9 so makes sense.

Prefers the Sony (just) for stills but the Lumix for stability and video plus the 420 Lumix footage looks better than the 422 Sony. And I would agree.

For me, my A7RV is very much a photo unit but as invested as I am at this time in L Mount, a S1Rii would make more sense in my line up, but not enough to warrant change for change sake at this time.

[Andrew Reid]

Nice to have a video from someone actually shooting with the camera and doing a good job at that.

Very good review.

I would choose the Sony a1 over both of these, it has the speed over the a7r V and close-enough in resolution at 50MP, and it has the better sensor over the S1R II and of course the mount very much depends what you're most invested in but I definitely have more stuff for Sony than I do L-mount.

 

[MrSMW]

Yes, Sony A1 a better option for video and not far off the A7RV for stills.

Mackay did a Z8 vs S1Rii companion piece to this one.

[ita149]

26 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Yes, Sony A1 a better option for video and not far off the A7RV for stills.

Mackay did a Z8 vs S1Rii companion piece to this one.

I don't know, the S1RII has Open Gate, much better IBIS and Prores Raw. 
I would not sait the A1 is a better option but it's a strong one if the advantages of the Lumix mentionned above are not essential.

[Walter H]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Mackay did a Z8 vs S1Rii companion piece to this one.

Summary of the Mackay video is that he won't take a stand on which is better as they both have relative strengths. For the way he shoots, he loves the LUT implimentation and the anamorphic function over the Z8 particularly.

His rolling shutter/stabilization "test" was ridiculous yet he did shred everyone obsessing over it regarding the S1Rii. 

Most striking to me was the shadow noise comparison with a backlit subject. Panasonic is shockingly better to my eye. He states that the Z8 noise could be readily cleaned with NR, but that is a lot of noise in hair and I think would be a bit of a mess without a lot of attention in post. 

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, ita149 said:

I don't know, the S1RII has Open Gate, much better IBIS and Prores Raw. 
I would not sait the A1 is a better option but it's a strong one if the advantages of the Lumix mentionned above are not essential.

Vs the Sony A7rV.

I would take the Lumix EASILY over the Sony and the Z8 as things stand because…

9 minutes ago, Walter H said:

For the way he shoots, he loves the LUT implimentation

 

[Walter H]

Yes, I am looking forward to exploring this - working with LUTs in camera and via the app. I initially thought it was a gimmick when & the way it was rolled out with the S9 but I'm now seeing it as quiet a powerful compliment.