Why aren't camera companies making phones?

[Andrew Reid]

Just seems like a massive chance to make money to me.

The smartphone market has peaked, and the high-end phones succeeded in selling at $1000+ by differentiating themselves mainly on the camera specs.

Now all the flagship phones are pretty much similar, not much innovation and Apple especially under Tim Trump have not come up with a new idea for ages.

It strikes me that if the camera is the most important thing about a phone, it should be a sign that maybe Canon, Nikon, Fuji are missing out on some hefty demand.

Canon should have a Powershot branded phone running latest CPU and Android, 1" sensor and a ton of features from their serious cameras on it, plus Canon's colour science and picture styles, which leave the Chinese phone manufacturers for dead.

Fuji should also do a similar thing, one with more style and imagination than whatever iterative shit Tim Woke But Trump is flogging year in year out. (Japan used to the lead the high-end phone market before Apple came along).

Sigma as well, aiming for a more Apple-like high-end product with amazing build quality.

So far camera companies in the smartphone market has been a branding exercise.

Leica with Huawei and more recently Xiaomi, but the actual hardware is all China.

Sony are the only camera company to have their Alpha features and software on a mainstream Android phone... Xperia 1 & 5 series.

But in typical Sony fashion these are general purpose daily driver phones that try to do a Samsung, rather than really pushing the camera forward into a new realm or the smartphone onwards into a new concept. In fact they have on recent flagships given up trying to be different at all and just gone full on samey.

Panasonic you may remember gave us the CM1. This had the right idea as far as software features and sensor size goes... Terrible implementation in terms of naff build quality, a screen that would scratch if you so much as sneezed at it, and a slow lens with even slower autofocus.

Nowadays the thin optics on a phone like the Xiaomi 14 series are capable of amazing things, like the really close-focus telephoto lens they offer on the higher-end models, and the very fast wide angle lenses that are super thin but cover a 1" sensor.

But if they really wanted to be brave they would come up with a camera-first, phone second product.

And that's where Fuji, Canon and the rest could really make something special.

[ND64]

The thing about smartphone industry is that the hardware and production is the easy part these days. The hard part is making deal with operators, and they work like cartels. And its too late anyway. The market is so saturated and competitive that even Chinese brands with thin profit margin are struggling to attract new customers. This new approach of magnetic m4/3 lens is sign of that. For 99% of people picture quality of flagships is so "good enough" that they see no reason to upgrade, and AI is not much a differentiator. So Chinese are attacking the niche areas of the market. 

[Phil A]

That sounds like something someone would say if he has never looked into a camera menu system! Camera manufacturers are so not cutting edge when it comes to UI/UX, I'd rather have a tech company (Apple, DJI, ...) try to make a camera than the other way around.

[gethin]

This popped into my head an hour or so ago.  Was thinking they could add features specific to their cameras.  Direct wifi video assist for example

[Andrew Reid]

5 hours ago, ND64 said:

The thing about smartphone industry is that the hardware and production is the easy part these days. The hard part is making deal with operators, and they work like cartels. And its too late anyway. The market is so saturated and competitive that even Chinese brands with thin profit margin are struggling to attract new customers. This new approach of magnetic m4/3 lens is sign of that. For 99% of people picture quality of flagships is so "good enough" that they see no reason to upgrade, and AI is not much a differentiator. So Chinese are attacking the niche areas of the market. 

All 100% true but companies as big as Canon have a huge sway when it comes to various non-smartphone related sales channels, so sell through those as sim-free, ignore the networks at the beginning.

Remember it would be camera first, phone second.

Go for the high-end niche areas first.

[eatstoomuchjam]

1 hour ago, Phil A said:

I'd rather have a tech company (Apple, DJI, ...) try to make a camera than the other way around.

DJI do make cameras, they don't just try.  The Osmo Pocket 3 is, from what I've heard, one of the most popular cameras on the planet these days.  The Ronin 4D is also pretty excellent and the "chicken head" camera is becoming a staple on productions, both from low budget scrubs like me to Hollywood films that will play in theaters nationwide.

[Emanuel]

11 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

DJI do make cameras, they don't just try.  The Osmo Pocket 3 is, from what I've heard, one of the most popular cameras on the planet these days.  The Ronin 4D is also pretty excellent and the "chicken head" camera is becoming a staple on productions, both from low budget scrubs like me to Hollywood films that will play in theaters nationwide.

That Osmo Pocket 3 is one of the most interesting devices I've ever owned, practically with me for everywhere and always ready for a ride like a crazy bitch! : ) Don't quote me, just a bot! ;- )

[Django]

Yeah I don't see Canon, Fuji or Sigma entering the smartphone industry for a bunch of reasons. And even if they did, I doubt they could catch up to Apple, Samsung, Google etc. RED tried and failed miserably. Canon, Fuji etc can't even get their own smartphone apps to work correctly most of the time.

Their speciality is imaging and should stay focused on that. Now what I do wish is that they actually implemented on their cameras more advancements coming from smartphones. AI is just starting to creep but they're still pretty behind. Computational stuff, I know lotta people hate it but why not have access to it. Image upscaling is starting to appear, Canon leading it with the in-camera 172MP upscale in R5 mk2. Panasonic seems to start getting it with S9/S1Rii and its Lumix LAB & FLOW apps.

Oh and give us bigger OLED 120hz EVF/Displays ffs. What's up with these dim tiny low res displays?! And don't even get me started with menus & overlay displays..

Why does it feel like I'm playing Pilotwings in 1992..

Give us more gestures, tap functions but also modern physical commands. I know everyone hated the Touch Bar thing on original EOS R but I actually loved it for quick exposure/ISO adjustment while eye locked in the EVF. Still haven't tried the Canon eye-control AF but yeah that's the type of innovation I like to see. Sigma BF might also be on to something.. really time to shake up the UI/GUI on these cameras.

[sanveer]

Making Smartphones requires way more skills than making cameras. RED, the infamous patent thief tried and failed miserably with the Hydrogen One. Even Sony, who despite making the majority of Image Sensor for most industries, as well as some great displays, as as having a great gaming legacy, still isn't anywhere in the top 5-10 smartphones. 

Smartphone imaging is not as much about glass as it's about Computational Photography.

Apple has created a brand image like nobody else. And the US government will ban any company, from any country, that even remotely poses a threat, regardless of whether it's the Democrats or the Republicans in power.

In my opinion, smartphone politics and success is way more complicated than Japanese Camera politics. 

 

 

[newfoundmass]

I don't think any camera company could enter the phone market and be successful at this point. As @ND64 mentioned, even the Chinese companies are having trouble. Heavy hitters like Microsoft and Google have tried to enter the market to little success; Microsoft failed while Google has a very small piece of the market despite being the primary developer of Android. And I think trying to appeal to folks that want better photos and videos is such a small niche that I don't think it'd work.

[Andrew Reid]

Google with their Pixel phones aren't exactly imaginative.

It's a shame as they pioneered the early computational photography advances on smartphones with the Pixel 1, 2 and 3.

Since then just iterative boring nonsense although the Pixel 6 Pro is a decent deal now for under $250 used.

Microsoft failed for no other reason than being shit at phones.

They may be a big hitter but you bring a braindead OS and middle-of-the-road hardware to any competitive industry, and you fail.

Apple has peaked.

The US political drama only serves to strength in the European, Asian and Arabic markets for smartphones. It could get Apple banned in the EU and the tariff wars will disrupt Apple's supply chains.

That plays into the hands of South Korea and Samsung.

It also allows China to innovate even more, and the Chinese domestic market has so many people in it that they don't even need to release their lower-volume flagship phones internationally any more.

America is very good at software, at the OS.

Here is Japan's biggest weakness.

But China is now demonstrating that their education system produces some rather good programmers and app developers.

All the Japanese camera firms have to do is outsource the computational side and overall firmware to China and put as big a bunch of sensors in the camera as possible, along with a very decent OLED screen and phone, boom you now have the best camera phones again like in the 00's. Make Japan Great Again.

[Emanuel]

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't think any camera company could enter the phone market and be successful at this point. As @ND64 mentioned, even the Chinese companies are having trouble. Heavy hitters like Microsoft and Google have tried to enter the market to little success; Microsoft failed while Google has a very small piece of the market despite being the primary developer of Android. And I think trying to appeal to folks that want better photos and videos is such a small niche that I don't think it'd work.

How come? Well, cameras are one of the main points for marketing to each release... ;- )

[newfoundmass]

14 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

How come? Well, cameras are one of the main points for marketing to each release... ;- )

Because most people aren't going to ditch the convenience/familiarity of their iPhone for a camera focused phone from a camera manufacturer even if the photos and videos are significantly better than what the latest iPhone offers. And those that would be interested in such a product are so few as to make it extremely difficult to make a profit, I imagine.

[Emanuel]

I dunno, I think people ain't only looking for a phone but they are not aspiring filmmakers, that's for sure!

They just sell their content to make happy the same billionaires who decide nowaways the future of our planet as never before.

Smartphones should be named small swiss army knife instead. Mars is coming.

[Snowfun]

Why did RED Hydrogen fail?

Cost? It wasn’t that much more expensive than the top iPhone of its day.

Android rather than iOS? (Possibly the most significant reason I never used it as a phone - the photographs I took were fun).

The pre-sale hyperbole made it too easy to criticise?

Insufficient info relating to the expansion pins and the so-called (and never developed) cinema grade camera module?

Poor choice of manufacturer (who apparently promised more than they were able to deliver)?

Lack of mainstream interest/awareness of H4V/3D?

The in-built camera was certainly no better than other cameras in phones - immediately depriving it of any perceived advantage of being a RED? Expectation.

JJ’s habit of promising a rose garden (albeit inhabited by skulls) then problem after problem, waiting upon waiting… rather than low-key developing, low-key manufacturing and Big Hype delivering.

Design wise it was stunning. It received regular and significant updates. Yet it failed dismally. What lessons are there for any other camera manufacturer thinking along similar lines?

Don’t bother?