Documentarians?

[fuzzynormal]

Anyone here specialize or enjoy documentaries?  My wife and I made a doc for our small community and were wondering if it had any viability beyond in-town screenings at the local film fest.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gorqbss1yxq6lufl81x44/HAWK_WATCH_SCREEN_DRAFT.mp4?rlkey=x5d8vcd4igr3bix0cdsgajq0b&st=mt1xzunz&dl=0

The 1st draft here is still loosey-goosey, but if you're so inclined, take a look and see if the story intrigues you enough to say, "Yeah, you might be able to get this out there other places."

We feel it's such niche topic that distribution isn't much of a reality, but maybe being niche is a positive in a certain way --and with a significant cut down it could have opportunities?  Not sure.  As one work on these things one gets rather myopic.  As you might imagine, feedback from folks in our local community is too biased.  They're just happy to see themselves, colleagues, and friends in a film.  

Any advice is welcome if you have time to watch. 

[QuickHitRecord]

Someone on this forum is actually producing work and putting it out into the world?! I had to watch and I am glad that I did. I thought that the visuals and editing were really nice. I loved the energy you created in the opening; it was riveting right off the bat. Hal is a memorable and interesting character. I tend to think of raptors as generally solitary so seeing such a magnificent series of "rivers" was a real treat -- I had no idea.

I am by no means a wildlife documentarian, but I'd like to offer a little critique. You've got a great setup but then I was waiting for an obstacle. Something that raises the stakes. Is the solar farm or other development being pushed through? What happens when Hal steps down? Or (and I really hope that this doesn't happen), what effect will the new strain of avian flu have on these birds? I think it might be worth keeping in touch with these folks because any one of those scenarios would add the drama that a piece like this needs to get into the bigger festivals or broadcast.

Or if it just doesn't look like the story will evolve much more (or you're just ready to move onto the next thing), I'd recommend cutting it down to a very tight 20-25 minutes. Maybe the climax is when the influx of birders come out in response to the email. There was good tension in that scene, like the citizen scientists were about to lose control of the mob.

Now a couple of questions. I saw in another post that you shot this with something like a dozen different cameras. What was the reason for that? Did any of them prove to be particularly documentary-friendly? It seemed like you had a LOT of people wearing lav mics and you caught some really choice soundbytes that added a lot to your story. What was your approach to audio? And how many times would you say that you've been out there for a shoot?

One last thing. The screener was only in 480P but that didn't stop the story from coming through at all. 4K be damned.

Great job on this and thanks for sharing. It was the most compelling share I've seen here in quite a while!

[fuzzynormal]

It's a work in progress, yes, so the feedback is appreciated.  

Your suggestions align with our thoughts as well, so the affirmation is encouraging.  There were a few different storytelling tacts we considered.  We ultimately decided to not deviate from their reality much and stay true.  Our usual tendencies would have been to play up some of the challenges  to heighten stakes, but their thing is actually rather modest and somewhat mellow, so (this edit for our locals anyway) is character study and a slow unfolding of their situation.

We expect to ultimately make a short "TV" version where the tighter and conventional storytelling stuff is in play.

So many different cameras were used simply because that's what we had on hand.  Also, there was a perverse pleasure in knowing we were using a ridiculous mix of cameras and then trying to unify IQ in post.

So much of what my wife shot was on an old Fuji XPro2.  Which is kind of a really dumb thing to do if you know that camera.  But oh well!  I often used a Olympus EM10iii --with a 1970's 50mm on it.  That's the camera that caught alot of the people shots.  

For the hawks, my severely banged up GH5 had a super cheap vintage Toyo 500mm lens and a 2x extender on it.  That was the rig that caught the most bird footage.  Rented some things along the way, but the timing of the rentals and nature didn't yield much.  Having that old lens was the silliest thing ever for capturing clean nature shots, but there was a lot of fun in the challenge of trying to make it work.  Manually trying to focus while panning at an effective 2000mm fov?  That was difficult.

I should have bought a real tripod, like a Sachtler, for trying to get birds in flight.  Not doing that was a mistake.

The Oly cam was the most doc friendly.  Small, unobtrusive.  Easy to use handheld kuz of the decent IS.  Looked good most of the time.  Trying to film on my Xiomi 12s Ultra was...meh.  Got a few pretty shots on it, but missed so much while fiddling with the touch screen.  No thanks.  Not doing that anymore.  Also, the phone's IS induces unwanted image jitter.  Bleh. The phone camera can look really great.  On par with the other cams in a way.  Not a practical tool though.

As for audio we just put 3 lav recorders on the main characters and let it rip.  Typically 2 hours in the morning, 2 hours at night.  x3 x60 days x2 years.  No monitoring of the audio.  We got what we got.  Keeping impressionistic field notes helped when trying to find good phrases later.  The standard grind of doc editing there, mitigated with the novel AI assist of transcribing.  Every once in awhile we'd pull out a blimp/deadcat/shotgun thing and get some quick interviews, but only a handful.

Finally, the days in the field were not really working shoots, per se.  More like us hanging out with friends, so those numerous hours were not a problem whatsoever.  Still, our rate card plus those hours would have kept the wife and I flush, but this is doc film making so that ain't happening.  If we ever see a return on this I'd be amazed.

Cheers!

[fuzzynormal]

10 hours ago, QuickHitRecord said:

 thanks for sharing.

Thank you for taking the time to actually give the film a shot and devoting some of your time to it.  It's actually a big ask to request someone's attention --and then have them do it; much less write out a critique.  Believe me, it's super appreciated!

[fuzzynormal]

On 3/13/2025 at 10:30 PM, QuickHitRecord said:

Someone on this forum is actually producing work and putting it out into the world?

The soundimage.org guy has been posting here for over a decade!  Lots of interesting and useful stuff there, btw.

[mercer]

I've watched most of it. Will finish it later today. After your holiday film you shared with us a few years ago, I think you know how much I enjoy your work. And this one doesn't disappoint. I must admit, I don't watch a lot of documentaries and what I enjoyed about this is it felt like a TV show instead of a "documentary" but we could probably spend a few pages discussing what a documentary is and I'd be proven wrong every time.

I really enjoyed the look and would love a breakdown of which camera was used where? Everything blended seamlessly, so great job with the color work. Which leads me to say that the piece looks really professional. I never noticed any lack of DR or wondered why you didn't use an Alexa or an Amira. I just read in your reply that most of the people shots were done with the e-m10? That's amazing. They look great! What picture profile did you use and how did you approach the final color look?

As far as the story and where it can go as a whole? I'd say your approach was really good and your main character is such an interesting guy. The women were all great as well. I was inspired by their excitement and it was great to see how comfortable they were around the camera. Did you use a speedbooster with that 50mm? Either way... 75mm FOV or 100mm, I suppose it helped to keep the camera a little further away. I could argue that you could have been even further. There's obviously a personal disconnect with birding... cameras and binoculars give the viewer a distanced bird's eye view... so to speak... and I noticed that in some of your shots, which I really liked.

Personally, I would take a look at all the footage and edit it into 10 minute pieces and put it on YouTube. I'd imagine there's a huge birding community that would totally dig this material as a web series and you'd probably get thousands upon thousands of views. Add some BTS footage on the equipment you used, and you can lure in the DIY filmmakers as well to hit two niche YouTube markets.

Anyway, thanks for sharing and I'd love to hear any more details about the cameras, lenses, settings, color and post work.

I'm looking for a fun camera I can go handheld with and just shoot stuff. I think you've mastered that on such a high level it should be shown to film students about what can be done if you don't have an Alexa, or even an FX6 or a Canon C series camera!

[Clark Nikolai]

On 3/12/2025 at 8:22 AM, fuzzynormal said:

Anyone here specialize or enjoy documentaries?  My wife and I made a doc for our small community and were wondering if it had any viability beyond in-town screenings at the local film fest.

 

It's really nice. It's a nice interest that maybe doesn't get much exposure on film. I think you combined the different types of cameras very well.

There are film festivals that focus on nature and the environment. (Search FilmFreeway.) I think this could be perfect for these types of festivals.

One thing they all want is a transcription and/or closed captions so be ready with that.

 

[kye]

On 3/12/2025 at 11:22 PM, fuzzynormal said:

Anyone here specialize or enjoy documentaries?  My wife and I made a doc for our small community and were wondering if it had any viability beyond in-town screenings at the local film fest.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gorqbss1yxq6lufl81x44/HAWK_WATCH_SCREEN_DRAFT.mp4?rlkey=x5d8vcd4igr3bix0cdsgajq0b&st=mt1xzunz&dl=0

The 1st draft here is still loosey-goosey, but if you're so inclined, take a look and see if the story intrigues you enough to say, "Yeah, you might be able to get this out there other places."

We feel it's such niche topic that distribution isn't much of a reality, but maybe being niche is a positive in a certain way --and with a significant cut down it could have opportunities?  Not sure.  As one work on these things one gets rather myopic.  As you might imagine, feedback from folks in our local community is too biased.  They're just happy to see themselves, colleagues, and friends in a film.  

Any advice is welcome if you have time to watch. 

A most enjoyable watch.  
Much more engaging that the overly repetitive swill that many US cable outlets are pumping out these days.  Distribution should be well within reach, and they should be lucky if you don't charge them too much for the privilege.

There is definitely a market beyond your immediate community.  

I think the key to unlocking it is about perspective.  Which of the following is true?
- it's a community film about this Hawk Watch
- it's a science communication film about conservation told through this Hawk Watch
- it's a human interest film about the main guy
- it's a social commentary film about volunteer work and the challenges to maintain efforts across generational divides
- it's a motivational film about community during a time when loneliness is an epidemic

Answer: it's all of these and more.  I'm sure you have sound bites that would tell each of these stories directly.  Weaving these threads together into a more nuanced view could be a way to get a tighter edit by putting more layers into it rather than cutting run-time out of it.

I definitely agree with @mercer that a YT channel could easily be built around this, by providing snippets of the doc, behind the scenes instalments, equipment talk, bird talk, etc etc.

[Emanuel]

On 3/14/2025 at 5:30 AM, QuickHitRecord said:

Someone on this forum is actually producing work and putting it out into the world?!

Yes! Please follow here (from minute 07:37 on) in Portuguese, though, I'm sorry!... but you have enough pictures there : )

https://sic.pt/sic-radical/cinetendinha/2025-01-08-video-ricardo-trepa-esteve-em-destaque-no-bragacine-comecei-pelo-cume-da-montanha-e-aproveitei-6b0373ac

(to those who haven't met me in the real world, you can even follow my mug in-between the minute 8 and 9 ; )

This is coming from a Portuguese national TV programme about cinema, filmmaking & alike to also cover my participation as producer joining some other local producers with three movies, a couple of feature films shot in New Zealand and Macao/China + a TV doc series in Macao, which collected six awards in the recent 22nd BragaCine[*] edition (Best Film in the short film and feature film categories, Best Directing and Best Cinematography awards and yet another Honorable Mention by the Youth Jury, as well, Best Actress in a Supporting Role for a Hong Kong actress we had the luck to have in the cast) -- here are the trailers of both feature films:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RSlwmdHhUi9DiH74um86FCtJ-a3HKott/view?usp=sharing

KILLER SOFA (covered by Hollywood Reporter & HERE for remaining press)

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18Er41RU5DVcouAOrb85PQbjyS0a25MLC/view?usp=sharing

INA AND THE BLUE TIGER SAUNA (LINK on IMDb)

 

I understand your comment and I even concur. 

As already reported by myself, so many times... : ) that I've already hinted that I should refrain to talk about work related with but cameras, hence to come here only now... because I can barely stand to become silent when I read this I fully second without remorse : P I hate anything anonymous BTW :- )

 

On 3/12/2025 at 3:22 PM, fuzzynormal said:

Anyone here specialize or enjoy documentaries?  My wife and I made a doc for our small community and were wondering if it had any viability beyond in-town screenings at the local film fest.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gorqbss1yxq6lufl81x44/HAWK_WATCH_SCREEN_DRAFT.mp4?rlkey=x5d8vcd4igr3bix0cdsgajq0b&st=mt1xzunz&dl=0

The 1st draft here is still loosey-goosey, but if you're so inclined, take a look and see if the story intrigues you enough to say, "Yeah, you might be able to get this out there other places."

We feel it's such niche topic that distribution isn't much of a reality, but maybe being niche is a positive in a certain way --and with a significant cut down it could have opportunities?  Not sure.  As one work on these things one gets rather myopic.  As you might imagine, feedback from folks in our local community is too biased.  They're just happy to see themselves, colleagues, and friends in a film.  

Any advice is welcome if you have time to watch. 

I will try to take a look as soon as I can but projected on the big screen through a 4K projector I use to see everything I can straight to a proper large screen if thought to be s(cr)een(ed) there ; )

Here you have the Macao's doc short film directed by António Caetano Faria (who also directed one of the feature films just mentioned with Bernie Rao who wrote the script and is the award-winning director/cinematographer and writer of KILLER SOFA too), 22nd BragaCine winner from where we are working right now to produce a local documentary TV series somewhere else in the other part of the planet, inspired by and in order to commemorate the transfer of sovereignty of Macao from Portugal to China a quarter of century ago, with local students of nowadays by the hands of one or more national film schools into a singular international Atlantic cooperation associated to a couple of other film school programs in the other side of the Ocean too, tracing a path... :- )

[* the oldest International Indie Film Festival currently operating in the country]

[fuzzynormal]

12 hours ago, kye said:

Weaving these threads together into a more nuanced view

Good advice.  Thanks so much for offering your suggestion.  The director, my wife, is aligned with your take here.  She definitely wants to hone the focus and define the 'voice' of the film better.

[Emanuel]

On 3/12/2025 at 3:22 PM, fuzzynormal said:

We feel it's such niche topic that distribution isn't much of a reality, but maybe being niche is a positive in a certain way --and with a significant cut down it could have opportunities?  Not sure.  As one work on these things one gets rather myopic.  As you might imagine, feedback from folks in our local community is too biased.  They're just happy to see themselves, colleagues, and friends in a film.  

Any advice is welcome if you have time to watch. 

 

On 3/12/2025 at 3:22 PM, fuzzynormal said:

The 1st draft here is still loosey-goosey, but if you're so inclined, take a look and see if the story intrigues you enough to say, "Yeah, you might be able to get this out there other places."

 

You surely have here some Borrego Valley as much more than a local plot. Not necessarily one-sided, confined to a niche ; )

 

Brazilians have done it pretty well with their 'Nordeste' (Brazilian Northeast) and 'Sertão'. 

Let alone Amazonia. 

Masterpieces* of people like Glauber Rocha or Nelson Pereira dos Santos had and still have worldwide audiences and wide-spread recognition beyond the local microcosm represented on screen. Other ones follow. Series Roque Santeiro shot for TV, as for instance, suits a larger time and space than where the story takes place (mid-80s) and some small community to cut across instead the whole country and decades or even centuries of their history. As University/College dissertations can easily prove it (here's an interesting text on topic in Portuguese -- there's a résumé in Spanish though).

 

The most regional, the most universal can happen to be.

It's all about language and handling.

 

Loved your wife's work, editing work too (which one of you did it?) to launch from the early beginning not only the main character but the way you have there potential as work in progress to serve the rough cut as far as the character(s) design concerns to be developed later on, targeting the dramatic paradigma to pursue. 

It's not the Karpman drama triangle but fits the ticket ; ) 

Moreover, the introductory statement, director's style and theme as the main idea that drives the movie forward.

 

Cinematography and grading (who in charge? only you?) to match the colours of desert and sunlight where hawks cross the sky and distributed a bit or all over the place, fills the cup, so no less : )

 

Much more can be added to your inquiry, I essentially agree on that already written by the other fellows of these boards I can now read and concur.

 

Wild nature is the bubble where human nature discloses its intrinsic revelation we should all take a look at some point :- )

 

- EAG

 

[*] PS: How many local story lines there in that breathtaking list...?! ;- )

[fuzzynormal]

15 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Wild nature is the bubble where human nature discloses its intrinsic revelation

Thanks so much for your feedback.  I was especially intrigued by this line. We're very pleased you were able to stay interested in the film.  We're screening this doc again today, locally.  Hopefully more insight keeps coming our way.