RED Drop KOMODO Price To $2995.00

[BTM_Pix]

So its not the X version and its not the new Z mount version but still its a lot for a lot less.

https://www.red.com/stories/komodo-price-drop

[eatstoomuchjam]

Wow!

The Komodo-X is, generally speaking, a better camera than the Komodo.  Button placement is better, low light performance is better, I/O placement is better, CF Express vs CFast, native V mount, and (of course) frame rates.

But it is not, and I mean not 2.3x better (K-X is still selling for $7k as far as I can see).  The difference got smaller with the latest firmware release when they added user pages to the OG Komodo (they're huge for making the camera faster/easier to use).  I just sent in a bunch of stuff for trade-in and held back my Z Cam E2-S6G for mounting on the car in dusty environments since it's robust and fanless.

The new pricing has me thinking that maybe I should just trade it in toward a dedicated car mounted Komodo and I could just tape a dust filter over the air intake.  Once used prices catch up with the changed new pricing, this becomes a crazy good deal!

Dang, it's an exciting time to be a low-budget filmmaker.

[Andrew Reid]

For once I'll give you all a reason not to get a new camera 🙂

The thing with the Komodo is you have to believe it's worth the hassle, in terms of cinema magic. Special sauce. And so on.

The colour science is tip top, we all know that the codec is pretty special too.

But cinema cameras are tanking in the lower-end of the market for a reason.

They are clinging onto the sensor in a box concept without the convenience factor of a stills camera.

They are still designed to be rigged up into something unwieldily, heavy and slow to operate.

And in the past it was worth it for the image.

But now that internal RAW video is commonplace on mirrorless cameras and you have a sensor as good as in the Z8 or EOS R3, the special sauce is right there along with the small body, small battery, power economy, EVF, IBIS and so on.

Which makes cinema cameras completely obsolete.

They now serve only non-creative functions like impressing clients or fitting existing workflow expectations.

ARRI is still a bit special in terms of the cinema magic in the images, but you can't really say the same about the Komodo vs a $3k mirrorless camera.

In fact I dare say the Sigma Fp-L has a more cinematic look in uncompressed 4K RAW mode.

[eatstoomuchjam]

If your basis for comparison is a small mirrorless camera, the Komodo is certainly a bit big and unwieldy.

Though with the right accessories (which, of course, increase the cost), it's not really all that much so (I'm excited for RVLVR to get in their production cables for using Clutch with Komodo).

Compared with the Nikon Z8 specifically, the Komodo has about 1 stop more of DR at base ISO and is global shutter (6K) vs 15ms (in 8K).  Are either of those things going to be world-changing?  Would things like EVF and IBIS make up for them?  That's up to the individual and their use case.  For Z8 vs OG Komodo, I'd also be willing to bet that the Z8 looks a hell of a lot better in low light since it's dual native ISO - and Komodo is ISO invariant and everything is just metadata from ISO 800.

For mounting to a car on rough roads (my use case), IBIS is not only a minus, but may result in destruction of the camera after a while - those magnets are only so strong and unless some manufacturer has changed it, turning off IBIS doesn't result in a physical clamp holding the sensor in place.  They just try to hold it in place with the same magnets that do IBIS.

Komodo was created to be a crash camera and it shows - a lot of the UX for it is weird and awkward.  Ports are in a dumb place on the bottom rear of the camera.  There's no front record button - just a weird little nub on the side of the camera.

I'd also say that vs my OG R5 or my old Sigma fp, I feel like there's some "magic" in the Komodo files when I edit/grade them - but that sort of thing is highly subjective.

[Andrew Reid]

3 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If your basis for comparison is a small mirrorless camera, the Komodo is certainly a bit big and unwieldy.

Though with the right accessories (which, of course, increase the cost), it's not really all that much so (I'm excited for RVLVR to get in their production cables for using Clutch with Komodo).

Yes but I don't quite see the point of it

Is the codec better than N-RAW? I'd say yes from a usability point of view, not so much from an image quality or special sauce standpoint.

3 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Compared with the Nikon Z8 specifically, the Komodo has about 1 stop more of DR at base ISO and is global shutter (6K) vs 15ms (in 8K).

The use case certainly comes into it, but both images are so good as to be almost interchangeable.

Whereas in the hay day of cinema cameras it was GH2 vs RED EPIC, a very big difference in the image.

Although it didn't impress Francis Ford Coppola much.

3 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Are either of those things going to be world-changing?  Would things like EVF and IBIS make up for them?  That's up to the individual and their use case.  For Z8 vs OG Komodo, I'd also be willing to bet that the Z8 looks a hell of a lot better in low light since it's dual native ISO - and Komodo is ISO invariant and everything is just metadata from ISO 800.

Yes even a Zf would thrash it at higher ISOs.

3 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I'd also say that vs my OG R5 or my old Sigma fp, I feel like there's some "magic" in the Komodo files when I edit/grade them - but that sort of thing is highly subjective.

Can you post some examples?

If the magic is there then I'm far more interested in it.

I have a RED EPIC... But hardly use it, even though it's a former Hollywood workhorse camera I have absolutely no interest in lugging it around the streets of Berlin for some reason.

[eatstoomuchjam]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes but I don't quite see the point of it

Is the codec better than N-RAW? I'd say yes from a usability point of view, not so much from an image quality or special sauce standpoint.

There's not much point in arguing about whose raw codec is best.  There's a good chance that N-RAW, ProRes RAW, and even BM Raw are better than it in many ways - unless something has changed, Red's is apparently based on Cineform raw which was released in 2005.  It's nearly as old as H.264.

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The use case certainly comes into it, but both images are so good as to be almost interchangeable.

In some ways, sure - but one could say also that in a well-lit scene, a lot of people wouldn't notice a difference between a GH5 and an Arri - or BMPCC 4K, Panasonic S5, or any number of cameras available for less than $1k on the used market.

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Can you post some examples?

Of graded footage?  That's going to be down more to the skill of the person doing the grading.  And for a side-by-side comparison of ungraded footage, I don't have a Z8.  I also suspect that if you google it, you'll find a bunch of people saying that the Red footage has magic for them and a bunch of people saying it's nothing special.  If you've found nothing special about Red raw from your Epic, I doubt that you'll find Komodo footage to be special.  😃

I like it, though.

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

have a RED EPIC... But hardly use it, even though it's a former Hollywood workhorse camera I have absolutely no interest in lugging it around the streets of Berlin for some reason.

Understandable.  An Epic brain is more than 2kg, even before adding I/O modules.  I suspect it's closer to 3kg before it could be used at all.  The OG Komodo, on the other hand, is just about 1kg (a whopping 90g more than the Z8) and the only thing is needs to become usable is a fairly small Canon battery.  I'd add a monitor so that doesn't need to be held at waist level to see the small built-in screen - that's more weight than the integrated screen on the Z8, but it's also a 5" screen instead of a 3" or so screen.  In terms of dimensions, the Komodo is barely bigger than a Canon R5 - and even closer in size to a Z8.

I've gone on hikes with the Komodo-X which is a bit bigger/heavier than the Komodo.  It didn't bother me at all to carry it with a small v-mount and some of Canon's plastic consumer RF primes - or with the EF adapter with an inline filter slot and smaller EF lenses.  That said, it's not my first choice for hiking or travel.  There are a whole lot of reasons that I'd choose the GFX 100 for that - and it's the opposite of the Komodo in almost every way.  😅

 

[newfoundmass]

This is both pretty crazy and also kind of "meh." There was a time when I really wanted to buy a RED (or really any "real" cinema camera) but that was a long time ago. These lower end cinema cameras just aren't significantly better than what we all have access to.

If you're a working DP it might make sense to get this, but unless you're doing mid to high level jobs I'm not sure it's worth it. 

[BTM_Pix]

I think the new price might give many people looking to buy a PYXIS some pause for thought.

Although from what I can see on here at least, the lack of discussion about the PYXIS seems to indicate that there has been a lot of pausing about buying one even before this.

Everyone wants a box camera until it comes time to buy one.

[ND64]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

discussion about the PYXIS seems to indicate that there has been a lot of pausing about buying one

Some youtubers complained about its build quality. Early reviewers don't talk too much about these things anymore. 

[Django]

I'm not personally in the market for a cine cam but this is fantastic news for whoever is. Komodo was already fairly cheap by cine cam standards but this is a significant price cut. To have access to global shutter & R3D code in such a compact form factor at such a low price point is really something. 

5 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

There's not much point in arguing about whose raw codec is best.  There's a good chance that N-RAW, ProRes RAW, and even BM Raw are better than it in many ways - unless something has changed, Red's is apparently based on Cineform raw which was released in 2005.  It's nearly as old as H.264.

RED has a well known compressed RAW patent that still gives it the edge vs other RAW codecs. R3D code allows 16-bit lossless with up to 8:1 compression. ProRes/BM Raw have other compromises such as partial debayering in-cam and maxing out at 12-bit. Same for N-Raw.

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

If the magic is there then I'm far more interested in it.

This may be subjective but having worked on Komodo footage I found the "magic sauce" was indeed there. In short the IQ feels filmic/organic for lack of a better term versus mirrorless. How the footage handles grading in Davinci, LUT response, even the motion cadence. Probably thanks to the 16-bit true RAW. Think 5D3 14-bit ML RAW mojo but even better.

Global shutter is the cherry on top.

[eatstoomuchjam]

3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Although from what I can see on here at least, the lack of discussion about the PYXIS seems to indicate that there has been a lot of pausing about buying one even before this.

Pyxis uses a pretty old sensor that is extremely meh by today's standards - and it's basically the same one as in another cheaper camera from BMD that was out for at least a year first.  I think a lot of the target market already had the other one and if you already have a 6K pro, there's not much reason to buy a boxier camera with the same sensor.

That said, it's full frame and has dual native ISO so depending on use case, it could still be a desirable choice over Komodo.  Same if a person has a bunch of L mount glass.

1 hour ago, Django said:

RED has a well known compressed RAW patent that still gives it the edge vs other RAW codecs. R3D code allows 16-bit lossless with up to 8:1 compression. ProRes/BM Raw have other compromises such as partial debayering in-cam and maxing out at 12-bit. Same for N-Raw.

It's a good point about 16-bit vs 12-bit raw encoding.  

Also, FWIW, I suspect that at least the alpha channel of ProRes RAW is 16-bit to match ProRes 4444 XQ - even if the color channels are encoded as 12-bit log.  It might be one of the reasons that Ronin 4D files seem to have extra "mojo" since it, like some Sony cameras (with Atomos), is sending 16-bit linear to the encoder.  Whatever it is, it's enough that DJI advertise on their website that it stores 16-bit ProRes RAW.  😃

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, Django said:

RED has a well known compressed RAW patent that still gives it the edge vs other RAW codecs. R3D code allows 16-bit lossless with up to 8:1 compression. ProRes/BM Raw have other compromises such as partial debayering in-cam and maxing out at 12-bit. Same for N-Raw.

$3k is a good price but it might be more interesting to wait it out and see what Nikon mirrorless camera gets Redcode.

As for global shutter vs rolling shutter...

4ms vs global shutter is probably not going to be very noticeable.

The Fuji X-H2S is doing 9ms in 4K and 4ms in 4K/120p and it costs $1500 on eBay.

2 hours ago, Django said:

This may be subjective but having worked on Komodo footage I found the "magic sauce" was indeed there. In short the IQ feels filmic/organic for lack of a better term versus mirrorless. How the footage handles grading in Davinci, LUT response, even the motion cadence. Probably thanks to the 16-bit true RAW. Think 5D3 14-bit ML RAW mojo but even better.

Global shutter is the cherry on top.

Show us 🙂

[Ilkka Nissila]

The Z8 does lock the sensor into place mechanically when in-camera VR is not in use, or when the camera is turned off. Most Nikons do. The Zf is an exception and the sensor flops around when the camera is off.

[BTM_Pix]

25 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Pyxis uses a pretty old sensor that is extremely meh by today's standards - and

It’s the same as the S5 if I recall correctly.

26 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

it's basically the same one as in another cheaper camera from BMD that was out for at least a year first.  I think a lot of the target market already had the other one

They had a pretty mad price cut on the Cinema 6K which leads me to suspect that sales of that weren’t all that either.

28 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If you already have a 6K pro, there's not much reason to buy a boxier camera with the same sensor.

I think you mean the 6K Cinema as the 6K Pro is the APS-C sensor.

As I said above, the “I want this in a box format” was also being spoken about when the Cinema 6K came out and the reality kicks in when the company actually produces them.

Same as all the “I want the Pocket 4K in a box format” pleading went very quiet when BM produced the new version of the Micro 4K which is pretty much exactly that.

I don’t know many people who have bought one. Aside from yours truly of course 😀

Speaking of the APS-C 6K Pro, I think that camera is a very sweet spot kn their range.

[Django]

15 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

$3k is a good price but it might be more interesting to wait it out and see what Nikon mirrorless camera gets Redcode.

As for global shutter vs rolling shutter...

4ms vs global shutter is probably not going to be very noticeable.

The Fuji X-H2S is doing 9ms in 4K and 4ms in 4K/120p and it costs $1500 on eBay.

Like I said RS is the cherry on top. Real benefit is having that internal 16-bit R3D code. With the Fuji you have to add a Ninja V+ just to get ProRes RAW so tag that on to the cost plus annoyance of an external recorder.

But yeah if/when Nikon cams get R3D code that'll be a different story. Still not convinced that will happen though as Nikon now have a cine line to protect! N-Raw might still be what you get on mirrorless. Wait & see!

24 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Show us 🙂

I could pull up some footage but that wouldn't help you much. I strongly advise downloading or shooting R3D code yourself and push it through Davinci cuz that's when the robustness of that RAW codec shows its superiority imo. I will link here some test footage of a film student who's about to release a Davinci power grade suite. He's actually a XH2S user who now also owns a Komodo and has this to say comparing the two:

"I fall in love with the komodo more and more each time I use it. The image is just on another level. Enough to warrant the money over other cameras such as the fujifilm xh2s? Probably not, but the footage is definitely better and working with red raw is marvelous."

Obviously the pricing comment was made before the current cost slash.

Nothing crazy here but the DR, color science, highlight rolloff and detail is pretty great considering a speed booster and vintage lens is being paired on. Again though, nothing beats actually working with the footage to truly get the benefits of R3D RAW..

[Simon Young]

What makes the Komodo special is the look of global shutter and 16bit raw, but more than this a terrific OLPF. I'm not in the market and agree it's not as convenient as mirrorless setups, so here's hoping that Nikon puts a strong and well engineered OLPF in their upcoming cameras focused on video. I owned both the Z8 and the Z6III, terrific cameras, usable in most situations but plagued by moiré.

[mercer]

I think the elephant in the room is that Nikon is clearing space in their lineup. I assume they want to get a little bit more out of the Komodo before it's discontinued for their lower end cinema camera. A bunch of good news here. If somebody is in the market for a low end cinema camera, can you do much better? Pyxis vs Komodo? Other than FF fanatics, the choice is pretty clear. other good news... it's possible this pricing is a sign that Nikon may be replacing it with a similar priced camera in the future.

As far as cinema camera popularity, it's hard to judge from this site or even from YouTube. How many times have we seen/heard people want a cinema camera... the P4K was a great example, but after the, BM Overlords are demigods for giving us soooo much, talk subsides then you see a lot of BM cameras for sale on eBay. How many times do you hear (myself included) if the FP was just everything that it wasn't designed to be, then I'd love it.  Or the C200 shoots internal 4K raw... that's fucking amazing... what a fail though because they didn't offer an internal 10bit codec...

Cinema cameras are a pain in the ass to use and aren't for most shooters, especially the people who frequent this site. Some offer better IQ than most mirrorless cameras, but mirrorless cameras are easier and a lot of times, more fun to operate...

But that Redcode...

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

How many times do you hear (myself included) if the FP was just everything that it wasn't designed to be, then I'd love it.

“I would love an updated original Pocket that is 4K, full frame with better battery life and shoots to modern available media, has an optional EVF and better autofocus”

”OK, here is exactly what you want then”

”No, not that one”

Maybe if we just called the Fp a box camera that happens to be rectangular then it might get some love 😁

 

[mercer]

21 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Maybe if we just called the Fp a box camera that happens to be rectangular then it might get some love

It doesn't have a full HDMI, SDI or proper timecode.

FAIL.

For me, it doesn't look as good as my 5Diii, no internal storage and it doesn't have IBIS.

WTF...

Why didn't anybody tell me this?

21 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

“I would love an updated original Pocket that is 4K, full frame with better battery life and shoots to modern available media, has an optional EVF and better autofocus”

”OK, here is exactly what you want then”

”No, not that one”

Haha, but I'd still argue that BM neutered everything that was cool about the OG Pocket's image for those other things, without adding the better battery life... but I guess that's debatable because there are so many different low end, +K BM Pocket models that it's hard to differentiate which one does what or all of those things.

"If you want better battery... well then you have to upgrade to the 6K... better screen and internal NDs... you my friend will need the 6K Pro. If you just need 4K and a better screen, then the 4K will work for you... but just a warning it is in no way pocketable, but by pocket we always meant it had a built in hand grip and was shaped kinda like a regular camera not that it could actually fit into a pocket. Also the image just isn't as cool as the original pocket... but with the included software you can just do it in post."

"Ok... cool. But I shoot events and YouTube content"

"Then you will want one of our various switchers. We sell them too"

Blackmagic Design, your all stop shop for things you don't need that end up being a lot more complicated than Premiere and FCPX.

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

It’s the same as the S5 if I recall correctly.

So... a pretty old sensor that's a bit "meh" by today's standards.  It's a fantastic sensor to find in an $600-800 used camera - a bummer to find in a brand new $3,000 one.

3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

They had a pretty mad price cut on the Cinema 6K which leads me to suspect that sales of that weren’t all that either.

I strongly considered picking one up when they got so cheap - as above, that was a hell of a value.

3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I think you mean the 6K Cinema as the 6K Pro is the APS-C sensor.

 

I will freely admit that the naming for BM's consumer/prosumer cameras confuses me.  😅

3 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

The Z8 does lock the sensor into place mechanically when in-camera VR is not in use, or when the camera is turned off. Most Nikons do. The Zf is an exception and the sensor flops around when the camera is off.

Well, that's actually awesome!  Nikon cameras suddenly got a lot more interesting to me!  😅