RED Drop KOMODO Price To $2995.00

[BTM_Pix]

18 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

So... a pretty old sensor that's a bit "meh" by today's standards.  It's a fantastic sensor to find in an $600-800 used camera - a bummer to find in a brand new $3,000 one.

It was missing a question mark as I was looking for confirmation if it was or wasn’t 😀

I don’t disagree but by the same token, the S5 has garnered the reputation as being a much nicer image than it’s successor the S5ii from people who own both bur I only have personal experience with the latter so I have no idea.

28 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I will freely admit that the naming for BM's consumer/prosumer cameras confuses me.  😅

Keeping the resolution of the camera in all names means It has a whiff of the file naming abyss you fall down with “FinalEditUltimateRevisionDeliveryVersion.mov” that quickly becomes “FinalEditUltimateRevisionDeliveryVersion_v2.mov”

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

It was missing a question mark as I was looking for confirmation if it was or wasn’t 😀

Oh!  I have absolutely no idea!  Seems plausible, given frame rates, etc.

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

I don’t disagree but by the same token, the S5 has garnered the reputation as being a much nicer image than it’s successor the S5ii from people who own both bur I only have personal experience with the latter so I have no idea.

I have no personal experience with either, though stuff I've seen shot on the original S5 has looked very nice (and outside of YouTube, I've not seen much shot on the II).  "Looks a bit better than a $1800 camera" is still not a great selling point for a $3,000 camera, though.  😅

There's nothing wrong with Pyxis and it even has some great additions like doing power+display over USB-C for the monitor - which also apparently means that I can get a pretty nice touchscreen monitor with camera control for my Ursa Cine for $300 (if I don't want to use the fold-out screen that's already the same size)?  That's pretty cool.  Though I think that I need to give the camera 26v to deliver power over the front monitor port. 

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Keeping the resolution of the camera in all names means It has a whiff of the file naming abyss you fall down with “FinalEditUltimateRevisionDeliveryVersion.mov” that quickly becomes “FinalEditUltimateRevisionDeliveryVersion_v2.mov”

Yes.  And now that I go to look at their site to understand it, I see that there is the "Pocket Cinema Camera" line-up which contain M43 and S35 sensors with the "Pro" at the top of the lineup.  And then I see that there's a "Cinema Camera" which is full frame.  I guess that since none of the cameras could possibly fit in a pocket (Matt Granger excluded!), the "Pocket" must refer to the size of the sensor?

Anyway.  Without meaning to, I'll forget all about that now so apologies in advance for the lack of clarity when future me calls the full frame the "Pro" again.

[newfoundmass]

14 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

“I would love an updated original Pocket that is 4K, full frame with better battery life and shoots to modern available media, has an optional EVF and better autofocus”

”OK, here is exactly what you want then”

”No, not that one”

Maybe if we just called the Fp a box camera that happens to be rectangular then it might get some love 😁

 

None of the BMD cameras I've seen touch the original Pocket's look, imo. There really was something about that image that made it really special. 

 

13 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

So... a pretty old sensor that's a bit "meh" by today's standards.  It's a fantastic sensor to find in an $600-800 used camera - a bummer to find in a brand new $3,000 one.

It's old, but I really don't think it's a meh sensor even by today's standard. That S5 image still holds up, if you ask me. I was editing a multicam shoot today with the S5 and S5II X and the S5 is such a nice image. I really don't think you can complain much about it being in a $3000 camera. 

[Chrille]

22 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The Fuji X-H2S is doing 9ms in 4K and 4ms in 4K/120p and it costs $1500 on eBay.

Show us 🙂

I haven't seen any good skin tones / high key stuff from the XH2s - it has a special and fantastic Fuji look, but somehow that one is also very distinct.

[Andrew Reid]

I think people should show us the magic sauce.

It's hard to judge through YouTube commercials.

[eatstoomuchjam]

9 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I really don't think you can complain much about it being in a $3000 camera. 

To be clear, the only "complaint" is that it's in a bulky $3,000 camera that probably won't produce an image that's better than a smaller/lighter camera that I can buy for $800 which has the same sensor and can, I assume, record the same raw codec if I connect it to a VA 12G.

Keep in mind also that "mediocre" does not mean "bad."  I'm using it in the context of middle-of-the-pack.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

It's hard to judge through YouTube commercials.

It's also hard to judge from some random clips that somebody on a forum might choose to show something - especially when you have no idea of the conditions in which a clip was exposed.  Like with a lot of things, it's best to do the test for oneself.

And if you have no real interest in the camera and in testing it for yourself, that's totally valid too.

[mercer]

Idk, cinema cameras cost a lot for a reason. As far as mirrorless cameras have come, they're still not proper cinema cameras. In a lot of instances, the benefits of mirrorless may outweigh the benefits of cinema cameras, but at this price point, it's hard to argue against the Komodo if you intend to shoot certain types of projects. If not, then it's a simple pass. I will say it makes it a bit harder to justify a few other cameras at a similar price point. But this price will go away once they run out of the bins of RF mounts they have in stock. The questions is, what will Nikon do next? Will they replace it with a similar camera at a similar price?

[zlfan]

Except top models, like Alexa, Sony Venice, Red Monstro, not sure how much better the low end cinema cameras are better than top of the line full frame or aps c hybrids.

[ND64]

Once you have access to the RAW data, you should be able to make any magic sauce you want with that. If you can't, its your fault. In still photography world it was a known fact, untill fuji marketing team pretended its a revolution if its done in camera. 

[mercer]

Except not all raw video is the same. Most people I have heard that used Redraw have specifically stated how nice it is to work with. I think Andrew has confirmed that? To compare it with another raw would require someone who has both.

[eatstoomuchjam]

I have multiple types of raw available to me here (Canon, BM Raw, PRR, and Red).  They're all very nice and if you spend time working with them, you can get very good results.

A lot of times, the perceived secret sauce seems to be in how nice the images look immediately after import and before adjustments are made - and that's how I perceive it.  The Komodo-X has it, the Komodo has it (but a little less).  The Ronin 4D has it.  The C70 has it (maybe I'll miss mine now that I traded it in).  The Ursa Cine 12K...  might have it?  The one time I took it out was inconclusive since the weather here has been a bit shit for the last couple of weeks.  The sunset I shot looked nice, though. 

The GFX 100 II has it, but less than some of the others.

The EOS R5 does not have it.  The raw that comes from it is totally fine.  You can work with it and get nice results.  Skin tones are generally very nice SOOC.  I don't think I ever once, though, have imported files from mine and thought "Wow, that's amazing."

[newfoundmass]

8 hours ago, mercer said:

Idk, cinema cameras cost a lot for a reason. As far as mirrorless cameras have come, they're still not proper cinema cameras. In a lot of instances, the benefits of mirrorless may outweigh the benefits of cinema cameras, but at this price point, it's hard to argue against the Komodo if you intend to shoot certain types of projects. If not, then it's a simple pass. I will say it makes it a bit harder to justify a few other cameras at a similar price point. But this price will go away once they run out of the bins of RF mounts they have in stock. The questions is, what will Nikon do next? Will they replace it with a similar camera at a similar price?

The gap between mirrorless cameras and cinema cameras, when it comes to image, has narrowed so much as to almost be irrelevant outside of the more costly cameras that DO have a genuine "secret sauce." For instance, when you buy an ARRI you're not just paying for the hardware, you're paying for decades of research into color science. 

For other cameras cinema cameras, the premium comes not from the "secret sauce" but because you're buying a camera that is supposed to be built like a tank that can hold up under stressful situations and be serviced by the company if needed. I would say the KOMODO (and most of RED's cameras) fall under that definition of "cinema camera."

 

Then you have the even lower end ones, like your BMD Pockets, or the FX3/FX30. They might put out a good image (in BMD's case, I think there is a level of secret sauce to their color science) but they also aren't cameras that are built nearly as well as even mid-range cinema cameras will. I mean, you can get great images from them, but those Pocket cameras feel like toys.

 

Really, when you look at it, the term "cinema camera" has kind of become just more marketing jargon. What does it really even mean anymore?

[mercer]

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I have multiple types of raw available to me here (Canon, BM Raw, PRR, and Red).  They're all very nice and if you spend time working with them, you can get very good results.

A lot of times, the perceived secret sauce seems to be in how nice the images look immediately after import and before adjustments are made - and that's how I perceive it.  The Komodo-X has it, the Komodo has it (but a little less).  The Ronin 4D has it.  The C70 has it (maybe I'll miss mine now that I traded it in).  The Ursa Cine 12K...  might have it?  The one time I took it out was inconclusive since the weather here has been a bit shit for the last couple of weeks.  The sunset I shot looked nice, though. 

The GFX 100 II has it, but less than some of the others.

The EOS R5 does not have it.  The raw that comes from it is totally fine.  You can work with it and get nice results.  Skin tones are generally very nice SOOC.  I don't think I ever once, though, have imported files from mine and thought "Wow, that's amazing."

Now I am in no way comparing the 5Diii with ML Raw to your more expensive cinema cameras, but I do agree. The first time I looked at the screen after installing Magic Lantern onto my 5Diii, I saw something a little nicer than anything I had seen on an LCD before. With a few very minor tweaks in post and I was able to get images I had no business getting with my skill set.

When I tried the same thing with the FP, I didn't see it and I wasn't able to get the same level as easy in post as it was with my 5Diii. Weirdly, I noticed it more with the 4K 8bit cDNGs than I did with the 12bit... although I admit that the 12bit is a superior image... if only Sigma would turn off the damn NR in their raw files. Anyway, it was definitely easier to see than any run of the mill mirrorless I have used since, though. Although the R7 amazes me in some ways. From what I have heard from various people online, @Mattias Burling included, that quality is there with Redraw, Redcode... whatever it's called.

That doesn't mean that modern mirrorless cameras aren't capable of creating amazing images. They obviously are. With the advent of raw codecs and post workflows, I agree that the gap is getting smaller, but...

That said, I have no business owning a Komodo, so it doesn't mean much to me and more than likely, depending on what the R6iii looks like, I'll probably buy a Z6iii next... of course I have been tempted by the FX30, so I may give that a shot in the meantime.