Shootout of the 4K flagships - Canon 1D C versus Samsung NX1

[Don Kotlos]

"In this way 4K opens the door to very very high quality 1080p with 10bit luma & 4:4:4 colour sampling if you use the right workflow –" (1) could you be more specific on your workflow here?

I have played extensively with different ways of getting a 1080p 10bit 4:4:4 from a compressed 4K 8bit 4:2:0 file and from my results, working with the original 4K file just until the final render always got me the same quality. Maybe with a relatively uncompressed 4K file the results might be different. 

There is no way around it, camera companies need to get that 10bit on consumer products. 

[k-robert]

So, are we back, where we have started?

I mean, instead of “inventing” 4K, first the industry should have implemented “proper” HD…

Has maybe Mr. Canon right, when he doesn’t want to jump from line-skipping HD to whao-whao 4K?

I don’t like Mr. Canon, because he hasn’t jumped anywhere in the last 5 years, but I believe, 4K has come a bit too fast for filmmakers.

Like this post. I have checked very accurately both footages on my 1366x768 laptop monitor… and what can I say? Honestly, what could I say? Please don’t tell it anybody, I just share this information with you. I don’t have any 4K monitor home… How should I argue over things, I don’t see?

Probably, the magic word is bandwidth. How much information you can write in a given time. 50 Mbs sounds good, but is it color or resolution or dynamic range information, what is being written? What do you prioritize? It could be the future profile of companies, to focus on color, or focus on dynamic range….

The industry promises you anything. That’s why, such an independent site is so important, where we can find “our” holy stuff among all the marketing BS-s.

So, thanks for sharing :-)

[The Chris]

Is there a 4k version of this? Full screen on my 40" UHD monitor is complete mush. Tough to judge 4k quality with a 1080p video.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I think they should start easily by adding a profile designed for cinema capture. A Log mode. Mainly with Zero sharpness, zero contrast, and no toy-like image enhancing effects and no over saturation of colours, keep it minimal, base and C-Log/S-Log like. That would go a long way. 

[Sekhar]

Is there a 4k version of this? Full screen on my 40" UHD monitor is complete mush. Tough to judge 4k quality with a 1080p video.

Got to the Vimeo page, and you'll find the original 4K version under Download.

[horshack]

FYI, the NX1's H.265 may be DOA due to licensing royalties:

http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2015/07/new-patent-pool-wants-share-of-revenue-from-content-owners.html

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/07/26/0149234/hevc-advance-announces-h265-royalty-rates-raises-some-hackles

[wolf33d]

What we need is a 5DC with 5DIV stills capability and 1DC video quality, in a 5D body of course (not this uselessly big 1DC body) for 3500$. 
Of course because it is canon this would be 4K 30fps / FHD 60fps so no 4K60p and no FHD120p. But even then... That would be a hell of a camera. 

And still far in features from C100/300 so...

[joe1946]

After using the GH4 and NX1 I have no desire for a DSLR with OVF for shooting 4K video.

 

[Steve M.]

The reviews of cameras flipflop like fish out of water on this site. Take any review with a grain of salt and reach your own conclusions. In regards to the two cameras in this comparision, well here is what was written in previous reviews by the same author. Neither camera has changed, but perhaps that of the reviewer, you decide.

 

The criticism levelled at the NX1 in a recent lab test really missed the point for me. Let’s deal with the supposed weaknesses first. The rolling shutter is no worse than the Canon 1D C in the real world or the Sony A7S’s full pixel readout for that matter. What’s more it is completely expected. It’s a limitation not of the NX1 but of consumer CMOS sensor technology on the cutting edge in 2014, doing these kind of full pixel readouts for the first time. The NX1 does 28MP at up to 30fps. An enormous amount of lines to get through in one scan. The only reason the 1D C and GH4 have marginally less skew is that they both crop the sensor to do that 4K output and don’t read out any more pixels than they have to. The downside is the field of view crop. The NX1 has no field of view crop and does a 6.5K readout. Switch to 1080p mode and you have the least rolling shutter of any DSLR or hybrid camera available today and still no crop. Although quality in 1080p mode is pretty basic due to heavy pixel binning (quite a lot of aliasing) switch to 120fps and quality remains the same, which means that the NX1 actually has the best quality slow-mo for $1500 out there, with the least rolling shutter. You have to get the FS7 for $8k if you want better 120fps 1080p.

 

Image quality

At ISO 200 the NX1’s video is so completely free of noise, locked down shots look less like ‘video’ more like high quality stills. There’s zero mosquito noise introduced by the codec like the 5D Mark III suffers from. Also the transport circuits from sensor to image processor seems extremely clean. The result is a silky smooth image but like the 1D C under ISO 400 it too suffers from the occasional bit of banding as a result of being so noiseless. This can be reduced in post. You can add small amounts of film grain to dither the bands together smoothly and use a different transcoding app for H.265. The other solution of course is the Atomos Shogun. I am told Samsung have been in contact with Atomos to ensure compatibility with the Shogun but I don’t know how far along this process is at the time of writing. Philip Bloom says he couldn’t get an image on his beta unit. Hopefully the ones that are shipping will work already. You will need to set the HDMI output to 3840 x 2160 rather than 4096 I think.

The NX1’s sensor produces striking Canon-like colour, which seems to benefit from a stronger signal to noise ratio than the GH4. It doesn’t de-saturate at higher ISOs as much.

Conclusion

Samsung are one of the largest semiconductors manufacturers in the world with one of the biggest investments in chip design R&D. It shows with the NX1. I can’t stress enough how different this camera is under the hood to a high end Canon or Nikon DSLR. As cameras move from the optical / photographic era to the computing era this advantage is going to become more and more pertinent.

 

The sensor is so heat efficient it is able to output 6.5K raw video to feed an internal 4K encoder, running off a CPU that is perhaps 5 years of advances ahead of what Canon have in their $12,000 camera, the flagship 1D C. The NX1 is $1299. Astonishing.

 

Low light performance and image quality vs the Panasonic GH4

What kind of ‘film stock’ is the NX1? Again I’d draw a comparison to RED’s 4K or 6K, it has a modern feel like the Canon C300, punchy and contrasty. Less like Super 16mm and quite different to the more restrained looking GH4.

This new Samsung sensor is a massive step forward for them, indeed the whole industry. In good light this sensor produces really top notch video. Beautiful Canon / Nikon-like colour but with the resolving power of the best 4K cinema cameras. Great dynamic range too, although perhaps 1 stop less in the highlights compared to the GH4 and 5D Mark III Raw.

In good light there is no grain, but there is a LOT of fine detail. And it doesn’t look TOO sharp, it’s a bit softer than the GH4 with sharpness dialled all the way down on both. It looks nicely cinematic, certainly the 1.5x crop helps vs 2.3x on the GH4 without Speed Booster. I prefer the colour I am getting out of the NX1 in 4K to the GH4.

 

If you only shoot with ONE camera and you need a full frame sensor along with astounding low light performance clearly the Sony A7S is still the way to go. But the NX1 arguably packs in the most advanced technology. Having an internal 4K codec in the NX1 sets it apart from the A7S in another way.

[MatthewP]

Hollywood wanted a 4K DSLR so Canon saw an opportunity and enabled 1.3x 4K crop video mode on their 1D X. The 1D C was born and the £12,000 price tag made sure nobody bought it.

With the Samsung NX1, the consumer didn't want 4K H.265 but is getting it anyway, because Samsung wants them to buy that lovely 4K TV to view the footage with. This is called technological progress, where more powerful machines are thrust upon an unexpected public and everyone gets excited.

Now the two world collide in this shoutout. Expect fireworks!

The Samsung NX1 is currently on special offer for $1299 at B&H

Read the full article

 

While I do agree that the 1D C is the King of Colours right now, you can get the NX1 remarkably close with some simple CC:

 

Probably better to do some CC for those of us on a budget. Just used the stock tools in Sony Vegas. To me, it shows that the NX1 is actually capturing the colour data, but just representing it in a different way (otherwise you wouldn't be able to bring it back).

 

(NX1 on the bottom btw)

[austinchimp]

 

While I do agree that the 1D C is the King of Colours right now, you can get the NX1 remarkably close with some simple CC:

 

 

 

Probably better to do some CC for those of us on a budget. Just used the stock tools in Sony Vegas. To me, it shows that the NX1 is actually capturing the colour data, but just representing it in a different way (otherwise you wouldn't be able to bring it back).

 

(NX1 on the bottom btw)

Wow, nice job Matthew. What did you do exactly to make that correction?

[MatthewP]

 

While I do agree that the 1D C is the King of Colours right now, you can get the NX1 remarkably close with some simple CC:

 

Probably better to do some CC for those of us on a budget. Just used the stock tools in Sony Vegas. To me, it shows that the NX1 is actually capturing the colour data, but just representing it in a different way (otherwise you wouldn't be able to bring it back).

 

(NX1 on the bottom btw)

Wow, nice job Matthew. What did you do exactly to make that correction?

Started with some colour curves to balance the NX1 shot more towards blue, getting rid of the green cast. Then I just shifted the cool end of the blue spectrum further toward blue with a hue shift, and the warmer end of the green spectrum I shifted towards red with the same method. There were a few other tweaks to the saturation of different hues, but that was pretty much it. Could probably get it closer if I had access to the original files, but it's not bad.

 

I guess it would be possible to make a '1D C' colour profile preset that could be applied to NX1 (or any other camera) if you wanted that particular look. Will post a sony vegas preset if there's demand.

[photographer-at-large]

 

Started with some colour curves to balance the NX1 shot more towards blue, getting rid of the green cast. Then I just shifted the cool end of the blue spectrum further toward blue with a hue shift, and the warmer end of the green spectrum I shifted towards red with the same method. There were a few other tweaks to the saturation of different hues, but that was pretty much it. Could probably get it closer if I had access to the original files, but it's not bad.

 

I guess it would be possible to make a '1D C' colour profile preset that could be applied to NX1 (or any other camera) if you wanted that particular look. Will post a sony vegas preset if there's demand.

How easy/difficult would it be to correct color out of Sony A7s to match 1Dc?

[ricardo_sousa11]

 

While I do agree that the 1D C is the King of Colours right now, you can get the NX1 remarkably close with some simple CC:

 

Probably better to do some CC for those of us on a budget. Just used the stock tools in Sony Vegas. To me, it shows that the NX1 is actually capturing the colour data, but just representing it in a different way (otherwise you wouldn't be able to bring it back).

 

(NX1 on the bottom btw)

Great work, 

This is what I thought too, that it could come very close after color corrected, this just shows the incredible potential on this lovely little monster. Its without a doubt the best piece of equipment out there for the price range, yet its very very underated...alongside the people I know that are into photography/video, almost nobody knows about the camera or simply ignore it because of the "Samsung" name on the front. 

[DBounce]

It's almost as though the ursa mini wasn't announced. Save your pennies and get something from 2015 era.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Hey Andrew, I have a suggestion for future reviews in regards to comparing color. The real-life scenes are great and give us an idea of what the cameras deliver in actual shooting scenarios; however, if you're going to make definitive statements about color accuracy and precision, it would behoove you to buy/rent a DSC OneShot/Chroma Du Monde chart, shoot it with both cameras in both daylight and tungsten lighting, then put them up on the vectorscope and do some analysis. Otherwise, the whole thing gets very subjective very fast, and there's no way for other people to adequetely chime in without having the original files and having been there at the exact time you shot it (to know the exact color of the objects and how they appeared in that lighting).

A Macbeth chart would be a step in the right direction. It's not as useful as the OneShot/Chroma Du Monde but a hell of a lot less expensive. Displaying one on an iPad proves nothing and provides no useful information whatsoever. 

At the very least, you should enlist a friend or two to sit in the middle of your test scenes instead of using that book, which may or may not be color accurate and doesn't reflect the skin colors most of us regularly shoot. It's easy. Offer them $10 or a home cooked meal or something, then tell them a funny story while they sit in a chair for 15 minutes. Boom. You're done. If you're having trouble finding people, I'm sure there's an EOSHDer in/close to Berlin who'd love to help. 

If you have any questions about the gear/methodology I'm talking about, feel free to PM me or, better yet, check out Art Adams' articles on the DSC OneShot chart (which he helped design) and his analyses of camera color (on which he's something of an expert).

Cheers.

[Steve M.]

Mattew P, color correction is a good example of how subjective it all is. Of course, anyone remotely familiar with color correction would know that looking at an RGB Parade scope would show the green cast and it's a simple matter of balancing those out with the Gain wheel, it has nothing to do with which has a better color science. In my opinion all Canon's  have a magenta push, doesn't mean they're color is inferior to any other. In the case of the Samsung, it might tend to push green somewhat, maybe. The GH4 pushes yellow. My point, so what. 

[Marco Tecno]

 

While I do agree that the 1D C is the King of Colours right now, you can get the NX1 remarkably close with some simple CC:

 

Probably better to do some CC for those of us on a budget. Just used the stock tools in Sony Vegas. To me, it shows that the NX1 is actually capturing the colour data, but just representing it in a different way (otherwise you wouldn't be able to bring it back).

 

(NX1 on the bottom btw)

wow, what you did here is almost magic! Now the shot from nx1, to my eyes, is more natural looking than that from the 10* expensive camera!!! Indeed, the canin has a blue/cyan haze, while samsung has very nice and balanced colors! I wonder if it's totally impossible to obtain such a result in camera!

[tugela]

FYI, the NX1's H.265 may be DOA due to licensing royalties:

http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2015/07/new-patent-pool-wants-share-of-revenue-from-content-owners.html

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/07/26/0149234/hevc-advance-announces-h265-royalty-rates-raises-some-hackles

More hysteria. If you don't want to pay them, then deliver in H.264 or some other format. It will only affect people using the codec to deliver content to consumers at a price. A 0.5% royalty seems pretty reasonable to me. The content delivery people will just increase the price for whatever they are delivering by 5% and pass it on to the consumer, while taking the extra 4.5% as additional profit.

After using the GH4 and NX1 I have no desire for a DSLR with OVF for shooting 4K video.

 

Agreed. For video an EVF is superior.

I would say the opsite. In the shootout the 1dc strikes me as more realistic. The world doesn't look to my eyes like what the nx1 shows. 

But of course, neither you or I know what where talking about. We weren't there.  

The problem with film is that it can see ultraviolet light eyes can't see, and that is what give that blue cast that you are trying to mimic with the 1DC. It is an artifact of the film days, it isn't realistic. The 1DC tries to mimic the colors of film, while the NX1 tries to mimic the colors of the human eye.

IMO the problem is that people who shoot video are so ingrained with the artificial colors of film (since that is what they grew up studying) that they try to duplicate it even though technology has moved on to the point where more realistic colors are achievable.

[tugela]

Seriously the 'sharpness' of the NX1 is NOT an advantage.

4K should be soft.

There I said it...

Otherwise it just looks digital and WAY too harsh for any kind of human being in front of the lens.

Not if you are shooting natural history, lol. You want it to look realistic, as though the viewer is really there. And unless you have cataracts or something, human vision is NOT soft (in fact, it exceeds HD resolution in center view by a big margin).

I got a 65" 4K panel over the weekend, and the old HD footage looks really sad on it. Especially BluRays of movies shot at regular resolution, they have far too much grain and noise, so they look like crap. Stuff shot at 4K and delivered as HD upscaled reasonably well, although no where near as nice as native 4K footage.