RX10 II Dynamic Range

[Simon Shasha]

Found this video here by Daniel Peters: https://vimeo.com/135591796

I was already rather impressed by the dynamic-range exhibited by the RX10 II. However, after bringing it into After Effects and pulling down the highlights by 2 stops, I was even more impressed. If only it were 10bit. Regardless, pretty amazing for the price and form-factor. Gives me high hopes for the (possible) BSI based "A7000".

Anyways, here's the original shot, followed by a shot with the highlights pulled-down, then a slighted graded, de-noised, and re-grained version:

ORIGINAL SHOT

 

HIGHLIGHT'S PULLED DOWN

 

GRADED, DE-NOISED, RE-GRAINED

[Mat Mayer]

Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to grab mine. Just need Sony to confim the length issue for certain regions and thats it. I am going to go and pester them some more now; missing valuable filming time- was in the middle of British countryside yesterday with no bloody camera. That slow mo at a dog show with long haired collies (dogs like lassie) would of been nice.

Edit: got a Facebook message saying to contact local dealer. Told them it is "pathetic that nobody can give me a straight answer from one of the biggest companies in the world". The camera is £1500 on Amazon UK today and nearly half that price from importers or in Thailand shops, so it is a legit question they are dodging.

 

[nigelbb]

 

The camera is £1500 on Amazon UK today and nearly half that price from importers or in Thailand shops, so it is a legit question they are dodging.

 

It's £1289 on Amazon today. It's never been £1500. It's only £1199 at Wex. I live locally to their retail store so walked in & bought mine over the counter last week

[Mat Mayer]

It was £1500+ yesterday, I promise you. I know that is not the real price but it was. Even showed up in ads at that price on Facebook and other web sites.

It is currently £700 and as you don't seem to believe me I have uploaded a screenshot: http://postimg.org/image/ljzmf2nof/

I told them I will buy immediately if they guarantee it does 29 minutes, not 5. I won't get a reply though.

[Ak Ns]

Guys there is good news,   

Sony A7s ii is getting released very soon/just got a confirmation from sony.  they are just waiting for the Sony A7rii to be getting released everywhere. Like india and some south american countries. 

Got very little info on specifications are, same base ISO,3200 But with internal 4k recording higher bit rate than A7rii.

[nigelbb]

It was £1500+ yesterday, I promise you. I know that is not the real price but it was. Even showed up in ads at that price on Facebook and other web sites.

It is currently £700 and as you don't seem to believe me I have uploaded a screenshot: http://postimg.org/image/ljzmf2nof/

I told them I will buy immediately if they guarantee it does 29 minutes, not 5. I won't get a reply though.

It's £1289 from that same seller now. I can only assume that the £704.50 was a screw up on the part of Amazon. You should have bought at that price as you could always return it under the DSR if it only shot 5 minutes versus 29'59".

[Mat Mayer]

It's £1289 from that same seller now. I can only assume that the £704.50 was a screw up on the part of Amazon. You should have bought at that price as you could always return it under the DSR if it only shot 5 minutes versus 29'59".

 

That seller tried to scam me with a fake order. Do not buy through ASK on Amazon UK! I have just been on with Amazon and they have confirmed they are trying to commit fraud by generating a fake order. They have faked an order and asked for a bank transfer after asking for my name and address. Strange as they have sold a lot of other stuff, but this is serious fraud. I knew it was too good to be true. Should be interesting...

 

[Don Kotlos]

Guys there is good news,   

Sony A7s ii is getting released very soon/just got a confirmation from sony.  they are just waiting for the Sony A7rii to be getting released everywhere. Like india and some south american countries. 

Got very little info on specifications are, same base ISO,3200 But with internal 4k recording higher bit rate than A7rii.

Great news. Now I should definitely wait for this before committing to the A7rii.

[Greg Padgett]

Did some testing today and yesterday at a state park near my home. Mainly video as I'm trying to learn how to grade the slog2 into something I like.

I did take some pictures and at some point I took a shot that for whatever reason (I believe I had left the ND filter turned on ) it turned out way underexposed. I took this shot not for it's artistic value but more for a look at detail rendered. Well, thinking the shot was ruined I figured I might as well crank up some exposure in lightroom via the shadow recovery and exposure sliders. Wow. It's like someone turned the lights on and with almost no noise penalty. No color banding. Nothing. Just plenty of detail and my respect for this one inch sensore genius of a camera!  As for a stills camera, this RX10 2 reminds me a lot more of my D800E than the gh4 ever did as far as the look and dynamic range of the image produced.

This might not blow you away the way it did me, but I just didn't expect such a clean photo from something so drastically underexposed. Especially from such a small sensor camera.  Have a look... I could have boosted this much further but I was going for natural.

 

[vaga]

Now to see if that holds up in video!

[PannySVHS]

...As for a stills camera, this RX10 2 reminds me a lot more of my D800E than the gh4 ever did as far as the look and dynamic range of the image produced.

This might not blow you away the way it did me, but I just didn't expect such a clean photo from something so drastically underexposed. Especially from such a small sensor camera.  Have a look... I could have boosted this much further but I was going for natural.

 

 

 

Hallo Greg,

the sensor seems almost on par with the newer m43 sensors. Looks like you pushed your photo 1.5 to 2 EV in Lightroom. Something I could do with a Panasonic G6 as well.

Regarding to Dxomark, RX100 III sensor is a little bit better than G6 sensor in the low iso department, higher isos it´s the other way around.

So for daylight RX10 II seems like a great camera on par with GH4 and G7 in the photo department!

Would really love to see some more 120fps footage, if it has Full HD resolution like 24p or 30p. Not just on paper but in reality. What is your impression on that?

cheers and best regards, Marty

[TheRenaissanceMan]

That 20MP sensor has a lot more latitude in the shadows than the highlights, so it actually responds fairly well to underexposing (to avoid blown highlights) and bringing it up in post. This is a lot like the D800e, which also has a lot of dynamic range in the shadows. This can be nice for recovering botched exposures, but it requires a fair bit of tonal work to get it looking natural. Also, all that shadow DR on a small sensor means that once you get to ISO 1600 or so, you're losing a ton of that to noise. 

The newer M4/3 sensors, on the other hand, have a much more pleasing, well-balanced DR distribution. They do pretty well in the highlights with a very nice roll off, but can also be recovered quite well (at low ISOs). I prefer this, because there's less I need to do to make it look good out of the camera. Plus, in low light, I can crush the blacks a little and still have that nice dynamic range in the highlights to keep things looking realistic. 

I've been shooting the GH3 and the RX10 side by side for a few months now, so I have a ton of experience trying to get them to match well in post. They require VERY different treatment to look their best. Both are quite capable, but if I had to choose, I'd stick with M4/3 in a heartbeat. 

EDIT: This is all in regards to stills. For video, my findings are similar, which puts the RX10 (even with the XAVC-S codec update) at a distinct disadvantage, because all that shadow DR is heavily compressed and doesn't always respond well to being raised. Compounding the issue is that the most accurate Sony Picture Profile (Deep) is very contrasty and crushes the blacks. Portrait is probably the second best, but it's so oversaturated you can easily clip a color channel, even at -3 saturation. The GH3 in Natural or Standard blows it out of the water for out of the box color and ease of CC/grading. The only points I'd put in the RX10's favor are that lens (an amazing piece of engineering) and the internal ND.

[PannySVHS]

The GH3 in Natural or Standard blows it out of the water for out of the box color and ease of CC/grading. The only points I'd put in the RX10's favor are that lens (an amazing piece of engineering) and the internal ND.

Hey,

would love to see some more GH3 stuff on Natural profile. On the G6 train and a happy traveller:)

Will post a video soon done with the G6. Would you consider showing one or two videos of yours?

Also, I dropped you a line on the lens topic. Seb Farges did a video with the 10mm SLR Magic. Looks great. He states it´s sharp

wide open.

regards, Marty

[Greg Padgett]

Vaga, the image came from a raw file so I don't suppose we'll see quite that much dynamic range from the xvacs files.  So far though, I've been extremely impressed with the slog2's ability to expose the entire scene well in high contrast situations. I haven't as yet used the camera for low light and I don't expect it to be A7s quality but for the way I intend to use the camera it should work perfectly. It seems to me that where the A7s can be overexposed 2 stops or even a little more, the RX10 tends to clip a lot sooner. I've been exposing to protect the highlights and have found plenty of room to lift the mids and shadows. What I need is a good plug in for Davinci to handle the bit of noise I'm seeing in the shadows. I do look forward to Andrew's review to gain some knowledge from him on exposure.

 

PannySVHS, yes I agree that this camera will be at it's best in good light. I will be interested to see what more advanced users will be able to do in dark conditions with optimal exposure and professional post work. I'm betting this camera will get the job done.

As far as the high frame rates, I haven't tried using them yet. I'm mainly interested in the slog2 at this point but I'll get around to the fancy stuff in due time. I do know the 120fps is supposed to be 1080p so it should look pretty good.

 

TheRennaissanceMan, I think you make some great points and they are in line with what I'm seeing. Great shadow recovery but the highlights need to be guarded at least somewhat. When I said the files remind me of the D800E, I did not intend to say they rival them. The just seem to have great elasticity and excellent rendering of fine detail. 

Last year, I owned the D800E, the GH4 and the RX100m2. I purchased the GH4 in hopes that I could get rid of the very heavy D800 kit I take when backpacking. I wanted a lighter substitute that I could use for both stills and video. The video was outstanding but (and this is a subjective opinion) the stills just weren't what I hoped. They looked nice. They didn't however rival the D800 in any way. Looking at similar images in lightroom, I actually found that I preferred the RX100 images to those of the gh4. Perhaps the familiarity of the files and the way they behave in post reminded me of the D800 files. With familiarity comes a certain comfort factor. I just couldn't get the gh4 files to my liking. All that being said, I still don't think the stills from the RX10 will be enough to make me leave the D800 at home. They're very good and will do in most situations. They're not D800E good for that once in a lifetime shot you often get in the big wilderness. This is where the A7rII starts to look really interesting...

 

[agolex]

The 120 fps is unrivaled in its price range, a lot better than the NX1 even.

[kaylee]

The 120 fps is unrivaled in its price range, a lot better than the NX1 even.

I agree.

Ive been busy and have only just begun my tests with the camera but i can say with confidence that the 120fps is legitimately sharp at 1080p as others have mentioned. ive only shot 100mbs so far. gradability (is that a word? lol) has exceeded my expectations

also the dynamic range slog2 is capable of when exposed properly is astounding with this camera, and using it at 120fps makes me feel like this lil guy cost a lot more than $1300

most of all its fun

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Hey,

would love to see some more GH3 stuff on Natural profile. On the G6 train and a happy traveller:)

Will post a video soon done with the G6. Would you consider showing one or two videos of yours?

Also, I dropped you a line on the lens topic. Seb Farges did a video with the 10mm SLR Magic. Looks great. He states it´s sharp

wide open.

regards, Marty

Thank you, I saw your post. 

Most of my recent stuff has been heavily graded, but I'll see if I can shoot a couple tests for your perusal.
How are you getting on with the G6? 

TheRennaissanceMan, I think you make some great points and they are in line with what I'm seeing. Great shadow recovery but the highlights need to be guarded at least somewhat. When I said the files remind me of the D800E, I did not intend to say they rival them. The just seem to have great elasticity and excellent rendering of fine detail. 

Last year, I owned the D800E, the GH4 and the RX100m2. I purchased the GH4 in hopes that I could get rid of the very heavy D800 kit I take when backpacking. I wanted a lighter substitute that I could use for both stills and video. The video was outstanding but (and this is a subjective opinion) the stills just weren't what I hoped. They looked nice. They didn't however rival the D800 in any way. Looking at similar images in lightroom, I actually found that I preferred the RX100 images to those of the gh4. Perhaps the familiarity of the files and the way they behave in post reminded me of the D800 files. With familiarity comes a certain comfort factor. I just couldn't get the gh4 files to my liking. All that being said, I still don't think the stills from the RX10 will be enough to make me leave the D800 at home. They're very good and will do in most situations. They're not D800E good for that once in a lifetime shot you often get in the big wilderness. This is where the A7rII starts to look really interesting...

That rendering of fine detail, at least on the RX10 Mark I, only holds true to about ISO 800, dipping at 1600 and getting fuzzy as hell at 3200. Looks great with enough light, though. 

They definitely have a similar tonal response--linear as hell and heavily shadow-biased. This gives you a lot of room to adjust them to taste, but requires more effort to get a natural rendering. I tend to prefer highlight-biased cameras with a nicer roll off and a nice tone curve out of the camera. Plus, going back and forth between the RX10 and the GH3 got really frustrating because of how differently they need to be handled--the opposite of the familiarity you felt. You can learn a little more about sensor tonal response in this article. http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/03/18/understanding-native-tonal-response/

 

[Inazuma]

Did some testing today and yesterday at a state park near my home. Mainly video as I'm trying to learn how to grade the slog2 into something I like.

I did take some pictures and at some point I took a shot that for whatever reason (I believe I had left the ND filter turned on ) it turned out way underexposed. I took this shot not for it's artistic value but more for a look at detail rendered. Well, thinking the shot was ruined I figured I might as well crank up some exposure in lightroom via the shadow recovery and exposure sliders. Wow. It's like someone turned the lights on and with almost no noise penalty. No color banding. Nothing. Just plenty of detail and my respect for this one inch sensore genius of a camera!  As for a stills camera, this RX10 2 reminds me a lot more of my D800E than the gh4 ever did as far as the look and dynamic range of the image produced.

This might not blow you away the way it did me, but I just didn't expect such a clean photo from something so drastically underexposed. Especially from such a small sensor camera.  Have a look... I could have boosted this much further but I was going for natural.

 

Are those some huge webs I see in the bushes? And if so, what's on them?!

[agolex]

Are those some huge webs I see in the bushes? And if so, what's on them?!

I see dead people!

[Greg Padgett]

Are those some huge webs I see in the bushes? And if so, what's on them?!

Hi Inazuma!

Yes, those were webs. I'm not sure what lived in them but I think it may be caterpillars of some sort.

I see dead people!

:D