Sony F3 (PMW-F3) $10K Price Drop and RGB

[Damphousse]

One of the other forum members alerted us to the new Sony F3 price drop.  It is currently showing at B&H as $3,995 which includes $10,000 of instant savings.  This camera debut years ago at $16,000 not including SLog.  I wouldn't be too keen on paying almost $4k for this camera but it does set up an interesting dynamic in the used market.

Unfortunately there has been a lot of confusion about log on this camera.  People are selling this camera and claiming it has the SLog update.  Well as far as I can tell the SLog update is free from Sony.  It can be found here.  What people selling older Sony F3 cameras are NOT telling you is that the SLog update does not include the RGB 4:4:4 update.  Now the latest F3s all come with the ability to output RGB 4:4:4 and some of the older models have been updated...  but a lot haven't.  If you decide to buy this camera used be sure to ask questions so you know what you are getting and how to price it.  The RGB update, if you can find it, ain't cheap.  Search for Sony CBK-RGB01 and see what I'm talking about.

Someone posted that they picked the Sony F3 up in a private sale for $1,200 or there about.  They mentioned the camera had SLog... but I don't recall them saying it had RGB 4:4:4 output.  Be careful guys.  Don't get burned... Although in either case depending on your needs $1,200 ain't too shabby!

[Don Kotlos]

There is one for $1500 (current bid, ends tomorrow) over at ebay: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PMW-F3L-Super-35mm-XDCAM-EX-Full-HD-Compact-Camcorder-/111737756631?hash=item1a0416dbd7

 

 

[Damphousse]

There is one for $1500 (current bid, ends tomorrow) over at ebay: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PMW-F3L-Super-35mm-XDCAM-EX-Full-HD-Compact-Camcorder-/111737756631?hash=item1a0416dbd7

 

Unfortunately from the ad it is ambiguous whether the RGB 4:4:4 upgrade is present.  While the form data does have the RGB model number entered, in the list of features the seller only mentions SLog.  Anyone bidding on that item would really need to nail the seller down on what is actually being sold.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

wow! This is actually a camera that rivals the C300 and Red Scarlet at its time (and now, the the three are still the same cameras). http://nofilmschool.com/2012/01/reason-sony-f3-canon-c300

What a deal. The image and functionality/pro features at that price is just great.

[jax_rox]

Well as far as I can tell the SLog update is free from Sony.  It can be found here.  What people selling older Sony F3 cameras are NOT telling you is that the SLog update does not include the RGB 4:4:4 update.  Now the latest F3s all come with the ability to output RGB 4:4:4 and some of the older models have been updated...  but a lot haven't. 

The Slog upgrade was initially a paid upgrade, and upgraded it to Slog 4:4:4. Then, Sony decided they'd throw in Slog for free to value-add to a camera that was seeing dwindling sales (and lets face it, was never seeing sales on the same level of RED or Canon). The free Slog upgrade was limited to 4:2:2.

So - yes, it gets incredibly confusing attempting to decipher it all. That being said, I'd take a $1200 F3 with 4:2:2 over a $4k one with 4:4:4. The difference is just not enough to be worth over $2k on this camera. 

I would rather put the money into a recorder that can get me the 10-bit out.

[Damphousse]

lets face it, was never seeing sales on the same level of RED or Canon

According to anecdotal reports around the web it did seem to sell okay.  But then the C300 came on the scene and people in various forums speculate that is what prompted Sony to offer SLog for free.  Once again this idea that Sony is a benevolent innovator who is giving the farm away for free out of the kindness of its heart and Canon is evil is probably false.  I still remember the butt hurt over the F55 F5 4k fiasco.

I've seen speculation on the interwebs that the volume they sold in is what is depressing the used market.  There simply isn't a big enough enthusiast market to absorb all the production companies dumping their Sony F3s.

 That being said, I'd take a $1200 F3 with 4:2:2 over a $4k one with 4:4:4.

That's really not the choice any of us are making.  There was ONE report of someone getting the F3 for $1,200 in a private sale.  The cheapest I've actually seen it change hands on ebay is about $1,700.  Also the NEW price for the 4:4:4 variety is $4k.  You can get it used for $2,350... maybe less.

I do take your meaning though.  I haven't seen any convincing statements on the web that 4:4:4 adds anything to the package... especially considering the cost.  I only realized this after doing further research.  Unless the difference was negligible I guess I too would go for the 4:2:2 version and put the rest towards an external recorder.  Low light with SLog is impressive.

 

wow! This is actually a camera that rivals the C300 and Red Scarlet at its time (and now, the the three are still the same cameras). http://nofilmschool.com/2012/01/reason-sony-f3-canon-c300

What a deal. The image and functionality/pro features at that price is just great.

Yeah.  Just depends on your needs.  It can't replace my BMPCC but if you needed a pro 1080p camera to use on sticks this thing looks like a steal... built like a tank, XLR, SDI, etc.

[agolex]

The Christmas Shootout: Part 2

Aaah, that must have been the scandal girl. Oh the memories.

[docmoore]

One of the other forum members alerted us to the new Sony F3 price drop.  It is currently showing at B&H as $3,995 which includes $10,000 of instant savings.  This camera debut years ago at $16,000 not including SLog.  I wouldn't be too keen on paying almost $4k for this camera but it does set up an interesting dynamic in the used market.

Unfortunately there has been a lot of confusion about log on this camera.  People are selling this camera and claiming it has the SLog update.  Well as far as I can tell the SLog update is free from Sony.  It can be found here.  What people selling older Sony F3 cameras are NOT telling you is that the SLog update does not include the RGB 4:4:4 update.  Now the latest F3s all come with the ability to output RGB 4:4:4 and some of the older models have been updated...  but a lot haven't.  If you decide to buy this camera used be sure to ask questions so you know what you are getting and how to price it.  The RGB update, if you can find it, ain't cheap.  Search for Sony CBK-RGB01 and see what I'm talking about.

Someone posted that they picked the Sony F3 up in a private sale for $1,200 or there about.  They mentioned the camera had SLog... but I don't recall them saying it had RGB 4:4:4 output.  Be careful guys.  Don't get burned... Although in either case depending on your needs $1,200 ain't too shabby!

So I had this camera in my BH cart for weeks ... then opted for a C100 Mk II ... mainly due to the size and concerns about Slog colors. After struggling with the A7s

I was not excited about wrestling with Sony color space. Although the 4:4:4 RGB output is truly the selling point.

 

So I drag my CD Odyssey 7Q+ along to get a paltry 4:2:2 Prores HQ out of the C100 Mk II ... not that smaller than the F3. But I get dual pix AF and a color science that

I can easily work with....

Still ... a sale of this magnitude makes you want to but it even if it is a bad decision.

Bob

Aaah, that must have been the scandal girl. Oh the memories.

No I think it is his cat ... and sometimes the better part of discretion is to let sleeping dogs lie.....

Discernment and judgment are polar opposites ... pray that I err on the gracious side.

 

Bob

[agolex]

No I think it is his cat ... and sometimes the better part of discretion is to let sleeping dogs lie.....

Discernment and judgment are polar opposites ... pray that I err on the gracious side.

Ah, I prefer my approach of neither forgetting nor dramatizing anything and first and foremost not take anything religiously serious. Helps me deal with the neverending madness and idiocy on this planet. 

[dhessel]

I just got one with the slog 4:4:4 upgrade, Berkley top plate, zacuto base plate, rods and Anton Bauer battery plate for just over $2100 shipped.

[Damphousse]

 

Although the 4:4:4 RGB output is truly the selling point.

I think for most of us not doing an extreme grade SLog 4:2:2 an external recorder with a robust codec for $500 or less does the trick.  Honestly I think the type of person looking to get the F3 for $1,200 isn't going to pony up the cash for an Odyssey 7Q+.  My concern with all this equipment as a nonpro is depreciation.  A Sony F3 for $1,200 means you pretty much have zero depreciation to worry about.  I would be more interested in a $495 Blackmagic Video Assist to record externally... Although I don't think the Video Assist would be able to do slowmo with the F3.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Aaah, that must have been the scandal girl. Oh the memories.

Please leave that out of this thread.

I just got one with the slog 4:4:4 upgrade, Berkley top plate, zacuto base plate, rods and Anton Bauer battery plate for just over $2100 shipped.

Was this a "make an offer" on evilbay?

[dhessel]

Was this a "make an offer" on evilbay?

Reduser.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

So I had this camera in my BH cart for weeks ... then opted for a C100 Mk II ... Bob

That's a sensible buy. The C100 is a better choice for most people right now. But to many, the f3 is another class, meaning the build quality, the colour space (10bit vs 8bit, 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2), with S-Log having more DR than the C100 (and C300, by about a stop). It has HD/SD-SDI outputs, Timecode & Genlock interfaces, full LUT support, proper in-camera over/under-cracking in 1 fps increments, much sturdier mount supporting PL properly with LDS. And by the way do not worry about S-Log being like S-Log2 on the A7s, they couldn't be farther apart. 

It's kind of a different tool vs the C100, but for most users who have no specific need for these the C100 is a better more compact choice with modern design and features.

[AaronChicago]

If I were shooting a feature on a tight budget I would definitely pick one of these up.

[Mattias Burling]

So much choices it's crazy f3 for peanuts, bmcc 2.5k is sub $1000, C100 sub $2000 and still everything is dropping. 

In Sweden a c100 is cheaper than a 5dmkiii. A few years ago it was what, 4 5Diii on one C100?... Crazy I say  

[Kristoferman]

I'm hoping for a precipitous fall for f5 prices soon.

[Don Kotlos]

The cheapest I've actually seen it change hands on ebay is about $1,700.  

And now the cheapest from ebay is $1525. 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I'm hoping for a precipitous fall for f5 prices soon.

Can't see why we can't be buying F5s for 1500 bucks in two years time and putting them on Bestbuy Tripods + adapting M42 glass! 

[eleison]

Can't see why we can't be buying F5s for 1500 bucks in two years time and putting them on Bestbuy Tripods + adapting M42 glass! 

 

There's an easy reason why the majority of people wouldn't be buying in 2 years... A7RIII  or Samsung Nx1 mark 2 (or some other "jesus camera" we don't know about) that does 8k video, internal recording, high iso and high dynamic range... Do we need all these features.. hell no.. But it's good to have for cropping, panning, future "proofing", etc.. etc.. ( whatever reasons people have to buy the "newest" and "greatest")   hahahhaha... Same excuses, different year :-)

[Damphousse]

In Sweden a c100 is cheaper than a 5dmkiii. A few years ago it was what, 4 5Diii on one C100?... Crazy I say  

Fits in with my thesis I've been posting about for years.   Stills has kind of plateaued.  The go go days of the 00's is long gone.  Back then Canon and NIkon were bumping up the megapixel count by 2 megapixels every 1-2 years.  That might not sound like much but going from 6 to 10 megapixels means a heck of a lot more than going from 18 to 24.  You can go out and do a high end pro shoot with a 5D MK III and no one will complain.

 

There's an easy reason why the majority of people wouldn't be buying in 2 years... A7RIII  or Samsung Nx1 mark 2 (or some other "jesus camera" we don't know about) that does 8k video, internal recording, high iso and high dynamic range... Do we need all these features.. hell no.. But it's good to have for cropping, panning, future "proofing", etc.. etc.. ( whatever reasons people have to buy the "newest" and "greatest")   hahahhaha... Same excuses, different year :-)

I think with the maturation of video cameras we are going to see less and less dramatic deprecation on pro gear.  What would the F5 MK II have that would cause the F5 to become rubbish? Maybe internal 4k Prores HQ 4:2:2 like Blackmagic?  Figuring out the various ways Sony is attempting to juice people for money on that camera is dizzying.  First they are holding everyone hostage by disabling 4k on all future firmwares.  Then they are turning around and selling the 4k hack back for $1,000!  Then you have to buy a $2,000 part to enable Prores... and you have to send your camera in.  And when it comes back even after spending $3,000 total you won't be able to get 4K Prores!  After all that time and money you will only be able to record 4k with the Sony codec.  Prores is HD only!

Now that I think about it yeah maybe the F5 will also be relegated to yard sale status.  But eventually we will see complete products without stupid gimmicks designed to line corporations pockets and at that point the upgrade cycle will slow way down.  Till then enjoy the ride and avoid being an early adopter.