Sony F3 (PMW-F3) $10K Price Drop and RGB

[jax_rox]

 

I've seen speculation on the interwebs that the volume they sold in is what is depressing the used market.  There simply isn't a big enough enthusiast market to absorb all the production companies dumping their Sony F3s.

I guess I meant they sold well - but it was definitely a prosumer-type camera. Despite its strengths, it never took hold in the same way that the RED Scarlet or Canon C300 did.

You could sell yourself onto a job with a RED, and even a C300. It was a lot harder to sell yourself onto a job with an F3 (at least without a lengthy explanation of why it was just as good).

Can't see why we can't be buying F5s for 1500 bucks in two years time and putting them on Bestbuy Tripods + adapting M42 glass! 

For some reason, I doubt this. I'm not particularly sure why, it's just a feeling I have. If I could get an F5 for $1500 I would buy it this second.

[Andrew Reid]

Difference between 422 and 444 isn't really perceivable.

You won't see much benefit from the 10bit 422 and you can have that anyway with the GH4 and external recorder.

F3 - nice price, but big heavy bulky unergonomic old-style camcorder.

Same sensor as FS100 but with 10bit internal and S-LOG.

It's a nice sensor in low light.

I'd consider the FS100 instead, it is much smaller and lighter, more modern.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I guess I meant they sold well - but it was definitely a prosumer-type camera. Despite its strengths, it never took hold in the same way that the RED Scarlet or Canon C300 did.

You could sell yourself onto a job with a RED, and even a C300. It was a lot harder to sell yourself onto a job with an F3 (at least without a lengthy explanation of why it was just as good).

For some reason, I doubt this. I'm not particularly sure why, it's just a feeling I have. If I could get an F5 for $1500 I would buy it this second.

Actually yes, the part about the F5 is kind of a joke. It will not depreciate as the F3 at all. 

The reason why the F3 drops so hard is because of many combined reasons that hit the camera at this time and not going to be combined again soon. 

First, this is a transitioning period from the HD to 4K standard, something that happens very infrequently, so the last high-end HD generation takes an enormous hit. F35, FS100, C300, all took excruciating drops. 

Same with large sensors, for example a Red One was in a transitioning period between small and large sensor availability, 5D came out and subsequent cameras EOSHD live on, dropped the Red to quarter the price. 

The reason number two the F3 is so depreciated is due to being born in this specific era where tons of exceptionally high quality camera were built out of no where and everybody used those (GH4s, A7s, NX1, 5D, D800) these cameras all had a major impact on the F3 price drop we see.

And to top these two factors off, it's the release of first the FS100 and FS700,  both draw sales a lot from it, and it was finished off by the FS7, a 60% price camefa that's better in everyway. It had to drop. C100 MKII became an almost better camera than the C300 so it dropped to C100-ish prices, that happened with the F3 too. 

 

These cameras that take these rare hits are a bargain. The F3 is a feature-ready camera, with the mount, connections, built, recording formats, DR, media type ready for highest-end cinema, that's why it's making this thread, a different league from FS100 and C100 and even C300. And it coming at that price is astonishing. F35 is even more astonishing. From 250.000 to 4-5K used. An Alexa-rival cinema camera for DSLR money, because it's 1080p output (sampled from 5K)

At this stage however, where no world-changing major shifts are going to happen in the video camera world probably soon (5D being born, 4K standard change)  the F5 being a new kid in the new 4K standard, will not drop to lower than 6-7K USD used at the end of its lifetime years from now when sold, especially as they are mostly sold as a package with those insanely expensive media, raw recorder, ProRes module, 4K upgrade. 

I do warn people who are ready to jump on an F3/F35 package due to affordability, keep in mind the PL lenses required for the F35 for example, the size and sheer weight of the beast needing cinema grade accessories, meaning an A7s priced tripod, and when you need to replace a board, you're treated by Sony as a 250.000 customer. F3 is also the same in ways, the FZ/PL mount, the size and weight and ergonomics of it, the crazy expensive internal media, boot up time, repair costs, these are no DSLR-like camera experience in shooting. 

[IronFilm]

And now the cheapest from ebay is $1525. 

yup, you can find them all day long at about two thousand dollars secondhand, and if you hunt hard it isn't impossible to get it even cheaper. 

 

One of the other forum members alerted us to the new Sony F3 price drop.  It is currently showing at B&H as $3,995 which includes $10,000 of instant savings.  This camera debut years ago at $16,000 not including SLog.  I wouldn't be too keen on paying almost $4k for this camera but it does set up an interesting dynamic in the used market.

Unfortunately there has been a lot of confusion about log on this camera.  People are selling this camera and claiming it has the SLog update.  Well as far as I can tell the SLog update is free from Sony.  It can be found here.  What people selling older Sony F3 cameras are NOT telling you is that the SLog update does not include the RGB 4:4:4 update.  Now the latest F3s all come with the ability to output RGB 4:4:4 and some of the older models have been updated...  but a lot haven't.  If you decide to buy this camera used be sure to ask questions so you know what you are getting and how to price it.  The RGB update, if you can find it, ain't cheap.  Search for Sony CBK-RGB01 and see what I'm talking about.

Someone posted that they picked the Sony F3 up in a private sale for $1,200 or there about.  They mentioned the camera had SLog... but I don't recall them saying it had RGB 4:4:4 output.  Be careful guys.  Don't get burned... Although in either case depending on your needs $1,200 ain't too shabby!

That would be me you're referring to :-) And yes mine does come with 444!!

But even so, I think you're over stating this point. As I think most people like myself who are buying it up now in 2015 on the ultra cheap, are not going to pair it with an ultra expensive 444 recorder but will instead use it with an affordable 10 bit 422 recorder. (Although, this is changing and improving too! As now the PIX-E5 offers a very affordable option for 444 recording)

So keep an eye out for if a camera comes with 444 or not, but in the end I think what matters more is getting a good bargain on its price. I'd still buy one again even if it didn't have 444 as the price is great. 

 

Difference between 422 and 444 isn't really perceivable.

You won't see much benefit from the 10bit 422 and you can have that anyway with the GH4 and external recorder.

F3 - nice price, but big heavy bulky unergonomic old-style camcorder.

Same sensor as FS100 but with 10bit internal and S-LOG.

It's a nice sensor in low light.

I'd consider the FS100 instead, it is much smaller and lighter, more modern.

Don't think you can reasonably compare an FS100 over an F3 (unless you *really want* that lighter weight, or the E mount).

No NDs, no s-log, no SDI, no 10 bit, and the list goes on. These are serious commissions vs an F3.

However, if you can pick one up cheap enough..... I wouldn't say now. Would have to be somewhere well south of a thousand dollars however before I'd consider a Sony FS100, otherwise it simply doesn't offer enough value vs an F3.

Quite pleased in how it is in low light, I shot a music video a couple of weeks ago with the F3 and 2x Sony A7s alongside it, in a cave lit by nothing but the flaming torch in the ogre's hand. When I can, I'll post it here and see if people can identify which shots are A7s vs F3 ;-)

[Damphousse]

 

That would be me you're referring to :-) And yes mine does come with 444!!

Nice job!  Thanks.  Couldn't remember who got the deal.

 

 

But even so, I think you're over stating this point. As I think most people like myself who are buying it up now in 2015 on the ultra cheap, are not going to pair it with an ultra expensive 444 recorder but will instead use it with an affordable 10 bit 422 recorder. (Although, this is changing and improving too! As now the PIX-E5 offers a very affordable option for 444 recording)

So keep an eye out for if a camera comes with 444 or not, but in the end I think what matters more is getting a good bargain on its price. I'd still buy one again even if it didn't have 444 as the price is great. 

I agree with you regarding your thoughts on 4:4:4.  I did a lot more research after starting the thread and Andrew echoed what I found.  There was some debate as to how much difference 4:4:4 really makes.  I also wasn't sure about the recorder issue.  I hadn't stumbled across any economical 4:4:4 recorders but I didn't want to assume.  Thanks for clearing up that mystery.

   Don't think you can reasonably compare an FS100 over an F3 (unless you *really want* that lighter weight, or the E mount).

No NDs, no s-log, no SDI, no 10 bit, and the list goes on. These are serious commissions vs an F3.

I agree.  Neither camera for me would be my choice for run and gun.  I would use it strictly on sticks.  The NDs and 10 bit SLog would be stuff I would use all the time.

Difference between 422 and 444 isn't really perceivable.

You won't see much benefit from the 10bit 422 and you can have that anyway with the GH4 and external recorder.

Yeah but the GH4 is no low light monster and it doesn't hold a candle to the F3 in terms of connections, robust build quality, built in ND, etc.  And of course S35>>m43!  By the time you add in a speedbooster and XLR connections for the GH4 the price has skyrocted well above what an F3 is going for.  And I think your depreciation risk is way less with a Sony F3.  Conversely I wouldn't walk around with an F3.  They are different cameras for different purposes.  I have a BMPCC but I wouldn't sell it to get an F3.

 

F3 - nice price, but big heavy bulky unergonomic old-style camcorder.

That's what is nice about it.  People look at it like an ugly duckling so you can get it cheap!

[Marthinus]

For a while I was opting between a used F3 and a Canon C100 Mk2 then I found a F3K with Slog and RGB444 with 2 x 64gig SXS, Sony SXS reader, Three Sony PL lenses 35mm 50mm and 85mm, 2 x batteries, two pelican cases.  The camera had only 65 hrs and was absolutely mint for $5000.  I decided to buy the Sony and is really very very happy with the image quality of the camera.  I added the Nikon to FZ adapter so that I can use all my Nikon and Zeiss still lenses works perfect.

 

[IronFilm]

Bargain with those lenses! Easily worth a grand each, thus you got the camera for less than two grand :-)