How I would describe 1dc video quality

[Andrew Reid]

1D C keeps an astounding amount of colour information in the 500Mbit/s MJPEGs.

The weird thing compressed 8bit footage should not have that amount of colour information in it.

And of course it is 4:2:2 but I never see the same advantage on other cameras when switching from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 over HDMI.

So either those other cameras are lying to us and simply wrapping 4:2:0 colour in a 4:2:2 ProRes file or the 1D C is doing something else that the specs don't hint at.

Fact is, 8bit 4:2:2 internal on the 1D C just looks WAY better than ALL my other cameras doing the same 8bit 4:2:2 over HDMI, hell it has better colour than the GH4 doing 10bit over HDMI.

You know when I shot with the 1D C and NX1 side by side, the NX1 ended up having a crazy amount of green and less info in the reds, yellows and blues...

If you look at the way 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2 colour sampling works, far more red and blue is thrown out in 4:2:0 but the green is kept...

Source: http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.com/news/news-articles/dv101-411-444-422-and-420-understanding-digital-cameras-and-color-dissemination/423608

But if that really had such a dramatic effect on the image and didn't just pixilate the edges of red highlights (the most visible 4:2:0 artefact I always see), why don't the reds and blues come back with a vengeance when switching to the 4:2:2 HDMI output? HUH?!

From a Canon white paper on XF100...

Sampling at 4:2:2 takes advantage of limitations in the human visual system to avoid transmission of unnecessary colour information. The human eye is more sensitive to black and white detail than colour. The 4:2:2 ratio refers to the ratio between black and white and colour. 4:2:2 sampling is especially useful where advanced video processing, such as compositing and colour correction, is required.

Both models in the XF100-series capture twice the colour detail of camcorders which use 4:2:0 sampling, and combined with Canon’s powerful DIGIC DV III processor and CMOS sensor, offer unrivalled image quality for camcorders in this category. 

[Shield3]

thanks a lot for posting this shawn

i downloaded your clip –– an astounding amount of true detail and rich color

pulled the frame grab into photoshop to add a bit of magenta and yellow in the color balance..... wow at those canon skintones i gotta say. if i can ever get slog2 to do this ima start a blog lol

the subtle modulation in the faces of the five children closest to the camera definitely reminds me of canon raw.... amazing

 

Wow thanks!  That's my youngest up front; Christine.  Started 1st grade Wed.  I realize the 1dc is a big ol' hunk of a camera but I didn't bring my EVF -  so it was just the body + the 16/35 F4 - Other people were there with crop body Nikons and Canons.  I only looked mildly annoying vs. having a large rig.  That was shot in standard with sharpness all the way to 0, and contrast/sat at -2.  I'm pretty pleased - I had the a7s for about 8 months and really enjoyed that camera as well - it just didn't shoot sports quite as well as the 1dx/c.

Thanks again for the kind words.

[AaronChicago]

Most of them are talking about 28mm spherical on S35, which is about a 40mm equivalent. It's Fincher's preferred wide, and shockingly enough, the widest lens Deakins used on No Country for Old Men. 

Apparently, the 50mm (70mm equivalent) was Hitchcock's favorite. I love it for medium close-ups, which are the meat of my films.

I personally don't like to go much wider than 40mm unless I'm going for a specific effect or my location demands it. Or for steadicam/gimbal shots, I suppose. 

I'd love to hear more about this. Which lenses are you talking about? Is it a 28mm focal length based on a 40mm lens, anamorphic?

[AaronChicago]

BTW this is the article that references 28mm.

http://noamkroll.com/28mm-lenses-the-secret-ingredient-for-achieving-a-film-look/

 

I'm very intrigued by this and don't want to derail this thread so I'll start a new one.

[Policar]

Most of them are talking about 28mm spherical on S35, which is about a 40mm equivalent. It's Fincher's preferred wide, and shockingly enough, the widest lens Deakins used on No Country for Old Men. 

Apparently, the 50mm (70mm equivalent) was Hitchcock's favorite. I love it for medium close-ups, which are the meat of my films.

I personally don't like to go much wider than 40mm unless I'm going for a specific effect or my location demands it. Or for steadicam/gimbal shots, I suppose. 

I was talking S35...

Still hate 50mm. :/ Dunno why!

[Shield3]

 

With the 1D C it just looks right on one of the standard image profiles and C-LOG takes about 5 seconds to grade.

Quick question for you Andrew - I spend way longer than 5 seconds grading C-LOG - do you have a workflow you care to share?  Mine is apply a LUT in Premiere Pro CC 2015 and then fiddle with the Lumetri color sliders....

[hmcindie]

I finally got a chance to work with the C300. One very quick shoot, no lighting, no budget, no nothing but I wanted to try the C300. During the shoot I wasn't that impressed. Changing ISO's, WB and stuff seemed a bit more cumbersome than the DSLR's. Also the shape was a bit weird for me. Looking at the LCD I was a bit bummed because we had no lighting and everything was a bit ugly.

But then... I got into the edit and it looks surprisingly good! The colors are great. Used WIDE DR (premiere clips the highlights but I brought them back with the procamp effect) and it just worked wonders. Good dynamic range, good colors, good look. 

[austinchimp]

I finally got a chance to work with the C300. One very quick shoot, no lighting, no budget, no nothing but I wanted to try the C300. During the shoot I wasn't that impressed. Changing ISO's, WB and stuff seemed a bit more cumbersome than the DSLR's. Also the shape was a bit weird for me. Looking at the LCD I was a bit bummed because we had no lighting and everything was a bit ugly.

But then... I got into the edit and it looks surprisingly good! The colors are great. Used WIDE DR (premiere clips the highlights but I brought them back with the procamp effect) and it just worked wonders. Good dynamic range, good colors, good look. 

Can I ask what camera's you're used to working with? Just to get an idea of what you're comparing it to. Very interesting.

[Andrew Reid]

Quick question for you Andrew - I spend way longer than 5 seconds grading C-LOG - do you have a workflow you care to share?  Mine is apply a LUT in Premiere Pro CC 2015 and then fiddle with the Lumetri color sliders....

I do the hard work in Resolve then just apply the LUTs and don't fiddle with anything afterwards. That makes for a much quicker edit. It is tempting to tune each shot isn't it? Shouldn't be necessary. A LUT can be consistent and give you the same look for everything. It also helps to use manual white balance. Most shots need tweaking due to the wrong colour temperature rather than the wrong exposure.

[Don Kotlos]

I do the hard work in Resolve then just apply the LUTs and don't fiddle with anything afterwards. That makes for a much quicker edit. It is tempting to tune each shot isn't it? Shouldn't be necessary. A LUT can be consistent and give you the same look for everything. It also helps to use manual white balance. Most shots need tweaking due to the wrong colour temperature rather than the wrong exposure.

Most of the time that should be the case. Manual WB and one LUT. Add a couple of global effects and you are done. Gives you more time to focus on the actual edit and sound. 

Maybe very different light scenes will require a bit more tweaking but that should not be the rule. 

I believe WB (temp & tint) is something that camera companies should make much easier to change on the fly. Its a big part of the picture and many rely on AWB. Which with some cameras works great but in others it is all over the place making colorgrading a marathon. 

[Shield3]

I do the hard work in Resolve then just apply the LUTs and don't fiddle with anything afterwards. That makes for a much quicker edit. It is tempting to tune each shot isn't it? Shouldn't be necessary. A LUT can be consistent and give you the same look for everything. It also helps to use manual white balance. Most shots need tweaking due to the wrong colour temperature rather than the wrong exposure.

Do you have any 1dc specific LUTs you can share, or do you mainly use ones for C100/300 C-log?  I think I only noticed one specifically for the 1dc built into Resolve 12 lite.  But what do I know.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

It has to be something to do with the fact that it works off the 1DC's JPEG engine, not the traditional video pipeline. I don't know enough to say how the two methods differ, but there's a clear quality difference going on. I'm curious why more manufacturers haven't experimented with this, beyond the ridiculous inefficiency of MJPEG.

[hmcindie]

Can I ask what camera's you're used to working with? Just to get an idea of what you're comparing it to. Very interesting.

I've used the Sony FS700 a lot (C300 looks way better, it's not even a comparison really though it misses the slowmotion features on the FS700 which is the reason we've rented the FS700 so much for music videos), the 1DC (1DC looks great too, except for the rolling shutter), A7s (I have problems with the colors but I think it does look better than the FS700 h264), 5D iii (great except not very detailed), 5D iii RAW (excellent, beats all the other cams except Alexa purely on image quality).

I now have in my arsenal also the RX10 ii which is colors wise close to the A7s at least a bit. It has excellent 100p, I'm not that interested in 4k yet.

I have not shot with the Alexa but I have edited a lot of Alexa shot material and it's at the top of the heap image quality wise. Though looking at the ARRIRAW files from the Alexa and the RAW files coming out of the 5d iii...the 5d iii isn't that far off! Less dynamic range and bit of aliasing but otherwise it has pretty good qualities.

[Asmundma]

Well gosh thanks a lot.  I thought I would get ridiculed off the boards for shooting family videos with a 1dc.  I'm just trying to get the best footage of my kids while they're young that I can afford.  I shot the 5d3 raw for almost 2 years - I'd have stayed with it but I wanted the ability to crop with 4k plus the 12 FPS for sports.  Plus of course the non-hacked reliability.

I have the 1Dx + 5d3 and did some film with it. Footage is better on 1dc , but I get very good quality with A7r2 as well. And I see you have problem with stable footage, guess why. To stabelize handheld it is much easier when you can put the EVF to your eye, use stabilise lense and  in camera 5 axis stabilisation. Else you have to fiddle with a loop, take it off when shooting stills. For 90 % of your stills, you will get better quality with Sony, except the extreme action picture one takes where extreme AF is absolutely crucial- 

1Dc is a much clumsier solution the the Sony alternative.   FYI - I will keep the 1Dx for extreme sports/wildlife  with my tele lenses. But change all normal photographing (and of cource video) to Sony as the picture quality is better, less heavy etc.  

PS I have invested some time in grading competence and there is no problem to get what I want- 

[sunyata]

One of my favorite 35mm (film) rangefinders is the Olympus 35SP which is a fixed lens Zuiko 42mm 1.7, which has a Super 35 cine equivalent of 28mm. So if you want to take some Super 35 @ 28mm "cine" film photos for reference, get an Olympus 35SP and buy some hand rolled ECN-2 film.

[jase]

Most of the time that should be the case. Manual WB and one LUT. Add a couple of global effects and you are done. Gives you more time to focus on the actual edit and sound. 

Maybe very different light scenes will require a bit more tweaking but that should not be the rule. 

I believe WB (temp & tint) is something that camera companies should make much easier to change on the fly. Its a big part of the picture and many rely on AWB. Which with some cameras works great but in others it is all over the place making colorgrading a marathon. 

Mh, interesting. I find myself needing to color correct my shots as well, so when i am not finding some white as reference I get into trouble.. Do I understand you correctly, that (assuming your WB is manual and thus consistent) I should be able to apply my color correction to every shot I did and it should work mostly out of the box?

[sunyata]

 

Mh, interesting. I find myself needing to color correct my shots as well, so when i am not finding some white as reference I get into trouble.. Do I understand you correctly, that (assuming your WB is manual and thus consistent) I should be able to apply my color correction to every shot I did and it should work mostly out of the box?

It really depends on what you're doing. The continuity of your source clips will determine the difficulty of attaining a consistent grade. One 3D LUT is really not going to cut it in a commercial setting, but maybe it will work for solo stuff under the same single camera setting and lighting conditions. 

[Shield3]

I have the 1Dx + 5d3 and did some film with it. Footage is better on 1dc , but I get very good quality with A7r2 as well. And I see you have problem with stable footage, guess why. To stabelize handheld it is much easier when you can put the EVF to your eye, use stabilise lense and  in camera 5 axis stabilisation. Else you have to fiddle with a loop, take it off when shooting stills. For 90 % of your stills, you will get better quality with Sony, except the extreme action picture one takes where extreme AF is absolutely crucial- 

1Dc is a much clumsier solution the the Sony alternative.   FYI - I will keep the 1Dx for extreme sports/wildlife  with my tele lenses. But change all normal photographing (and of cource video) to Sony as the picture quality is better, less heavy etc.  

PS I have invested some time in grading competence and there is no problem to get what I want- 

Uhm, this was shot with a stabilized lens - the 16-35 F/4 IS.  All handheld and purely casual shooting.  IBIS is fine for short lenses, but really useless for 135mm+.  Also you do know there are external EVFs that attach to the HDMI port, right?  Like this one:

IMO it's the best of both worlds - this EVF does way more than the Sony built in EVF; I can remove it when I don't want to use it.  False colors, multiple zoom modes, underexposed/overexposed areas, crop marks, more peaking choices, etc.  Weighs less than a pound and I can pull it off to shoot sports; it attaches to the shoe so no, I don't need to remove it.  I would take exception to your use of the word "extreme" sports.  The A7x can't shoot regular sports without any native long glass or good focusing in low / mixed lighting.  I hate shooting action with an EVF.  But hey, for non-moving objects it's a great camera -  if you don't have a client pissed when it overheats and shuts down.  Nothing is as clumsy as that.  To each his own I guess. 

 

[Asmundma]

Uhm, this was shot with a stabilized lens - the 16-35 F/4 IS.  All handheld and purely casual shooting.  IBIS is fine for short lenses, but really useless for 135mm+.  Also you do know there are external EVFs that attach to the HDMI port, right?  Like this one:

IMO it's the best of both worlds - this EVF does way more than the Sony built in EVF; I can remove it when I don't want to use it.  False colors, multiple zoom modes, underexposed/overexposed areas, crop marks, more peaking choices, etc.  Weighs less than a pound and I can pull it off to shoot sports; it attaches to the shoe so no, I don't need to remove it.  I would take exception to your use of the word "extreme" sports.  The A7x can't shoot regular sports without any native long glass or good focusing in low / mixed lighting.  I hate shooting action with an EVF.  But hey, for non-moving objects it's a great camera -  if you don't have a client pissed when it overheats and shuts down.  Nothing is as clumsy as that.  To each his own I guess. 

 

Only false coulur is not available in the Sony EVF.  I used a Zacuto EVF on Canon, but the Sony EVF is better quality. I found shooting our dog is quite a challenge for AFing. In fact with the A7r2 I am able to shoot stills of the dog running around with Canon glass like 24-70 and 70-200 - it will not work good on the A7s. You right, it works even better with native glass. You will not have any video AF with the canon 16-35, in fact you will have the with a A7r2.  If I shoot for a long period >30min - the shoGun is solving any overheat problem and you get a way more powerful monitor solution then the LCD evf on the picture above. Apologies if I became harsh in my reply, like you its just my opinion. 

[Shield3]

So now I have to use a Shogun + a7rii, plus buy SSDs / Metabones adapter / multiple batteries for both / a grip probably to add some heft?  Now we're at over 6k and you've built something that still cannot shoot sports and is larger to carry around than the 1dc + this Kinotehnik LCDVFE.

I don't care about video AF; if I do I grab the Samsung NX1.  The A7x models don't exactly AF well in video as you well know.  Unless it's something as smooth as a 70d I wouldn't tout that as a feature of the a7x series.

Regarding the LCDVFE - It will display underexposed areas as well, allow you to customize what's on the screen, 4 custom modes, 4 separate zoom modes, display in all blue as well as false color, allow you to control it with an external USB controller, has a proper eyepiece/loupe that blocks out all the glare, and the top folds down to double as a small monitor.  I've had the a7s and this EVF is light years better.  The Shogun is nice but hard to see in bright light, very large and has limited battery life.  Or so I've read.  What do I know - I've never owned one.

No camera is perfect - I would like better high speed framerates with the 1dc - hell I'd take 4k 30 - the difference I think between us is I shoot quite a bit of kids running around playing sports and need the native long lens reach and superior AF tracking that the 1d(x) system provides.  I don't see the 2.8 zooms being available yet in FE mount, nor any long glass, and shooting indoor basketball and gymnastics would drive me crazy if it didn't work properly in mixed lighting.  I simply love the dynamic range of the Sony cameras and Canon would do well designing some newer sensors for their cameras.

One thing that drove me batty was not having the custom modes on the a7s save the APS-C setting.  If you create a custom mode 1 with FF and a #2 with APS-C on, will it remember it now?  If not can you at least assign it to a button at least?