Slowest shutter speed in video mode

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Then it is easier to understand me the OP I am not intending to use a mechanical shutter (with limited cycles of use) but looking after 24 or 25fps video look you repeatedly say it is not possible to go slower than 1/24th of shutter, so?

 

Where those cameras are doing 1/4th at normal speed of 24 or 25fps look? (slowest shutter in video mode with my GH1 for example is 1/30)

Didn't you say it is impossible? You're entering in contradiction lol

Okay now I really give up 

[shooter]

Okay now I really give up 

You shouldn't. Why? To begin with, because there are other readers lol but, also because you're saying accurate information in an inaccurate way. Anyone here discussed what you said? (1/frame-rate as physical limit for shutter speed) No.

Or the continuous shooting in photo mode each modern camera has it? No.

So? You didn't care about continuous shooting in video mode with much slower (than the physical limitation you mention) shutter speed effect and particular mojo shown in that video shot with the new Sony camera (that's the whole reason for this thread).

Ah, but they (Sony) duplicate frames. So what? What's the problem with that? Do the other brands have the same in their cameras? In video continuous mode? We can shoot a few frames but we are limited to the burst of the camera for a few seconds. We can also shoot time lapse, yes. But then? The electronic shutter now is a dream for time lapse shooting because of life cycles of a mechanical shutter. But, I think you will not have it in continuous video mode in the same way like Sony or any other camera shooting at 25fps (PAL) at 1/25th of a second for shutter. Am I wrong?

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

You shouldn't. Why? To begin with, because there are other readers. 

Okay you got me I won't give up because it's unfair to readers, there are around thousands reading actually that are non members. So I'll explain farther:
 

Anyone here discussed what you said? (1/frame-rate as physical limit for shutter speed) No.

Yes. It's the key answer to the thread question and the key to the meaning of this feature. 

Or the continuous shooting in photo mode each modern camera has it? No.

Yes. it's about recreating and explaining the feature of this thread. 

So? You didn't care about continuous shooting in video mode with much slower (than the physical limitation you mention) shutter speed effect and particular mojo shown in that video shot with the new Sony camera (that's the whole reason for this thread).

The Sony is not shooting with lower shutter speed than the physical limitation in frame rate. That's as we've established now impossible. 

And this feature has no special mojo in Sony because it's available in tons of other cameras (list above in previous comment)
 

Ah, but they (Sony) duplicate frames. So what? What's the problem with that? 

Sony is not duplicating frames. It's shooting at 4 frames per second with a 1/4s shutter and conforming to 24p.

 

Do the other brands offer the same? In video continuous mode? 

Yes other brands offer the same, and yes in continuous video mode (list above in previous comment)
 

Sony or any other camera shooting at 25fps (PAL) at 1/25th of a second for shutter. Or am I wrong?

Yes you are. You cannot have 1/4s with any camera shooting at 25fps including on Sony, you can only have lower frame rate and lower shutter and speed it up to get that look you liked.
 

It's a great feature and look, I love timelapse and it's actually my very personal signature of my cinematography in all projects. 

You seem to like it and I am trying to help you achieve it, as well as understand it, and realize what cameras at different budgets offer it. Are we in agreement?

@Shooter: do you have any camera from my list (maybe a canon DSLR) at hand so I'd walk you through how to try it?

If you don't buy a sony or a gh4 or a canon or any camera from the list that meets your requirements best and I'll walk you through how to do it on any of them too. 

 

[shooter]

I'm sorry but I still think you're missing the point here. Because I mean continuous video mode (25 or 24, 5 or 4 frames per second) and burst mode are only a few seconds. I don't have experience with time lapse, true. But, with time lapse you end to speed up your footage. That video with the new Sony is normal speed. You say it now it is possible to do it with the other cameras. Okay, I appreciate your offer. 

But, don't forget, no mechanical shutter and continuous shooting, not burst mode, not only a few seconds!

 

It's a great feature and look, I love timelapse and it's actually my very personal signature of my cinematography in all projects. 

You seem to like it and I am trying to help you achieve it, as well as understand it, and realize what cameras at different budgets offer it. Are we in agreement?

@Shooter: do you have any camera from my list (maybe a canon DSLR) at hand so I'd walk you through how to try it?

If you don't buy a sony or a gh4 or a canon or any camera from the list that meets your requirements best and I'll walk you through how to do it on any of them too. 

 

I only have here with me now a GH1.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

But, don't forget, no mechanical shutter and continuous shooting, not burst mode, not only a few seconds!

Yes really all the list do that precisely. 

That video with the new Sony is normal speed. 

Because it's shot at 5fps and shown at 5 fps, so you get stuttered look of photographs. You can speed it up to 25p for timelapse or keep it at 5fps for that stuttered look.

I think the video at 5fps looks bad, the sped up versions like rich showed on the sony gives a cooler effect. 

It's sunrise in an hour I'll go out and shoot one now and let you know the results on a Canon DSLR. 

[shooter]

Yes really all the list do that precisely. 

Because it's shot at 5fps and shown at 5 fps, so you get stuttered look of photographs. You can speed it up to 25p for timelapse or keep it at 5fps for that stuttered look.

I think the video at 5fps looks bad, the sped up versions like rich showed on the sony gives a cooler effect. 

It's sunrise in an hour I'll go out and shoot one now and let you know the results on a Canon DSLR. 

Okay, thanks. I'd love to see it but at normal speed. That's the point of this thread. That video made with the new Sony camera is 25 fps (not shown at 5 fps!) though.

If there aren't duplicated frames, what did they do to have it in the end at 25 fps but not sped up?

[bunk]

Here is how I see it...

A camera lets you record at a certain frame rate per second.

Let's assume (for the sake of argument) the exposure time of that camera is equal to 1/ the frame rate. 

In principle the amount of frames per second is only limited by hardware.

The playback speed is independent of the record speed.

 

If you conform footage that is recorded with 120 fps to a playback speed of 120 fps it plays back in 'realtime'.

If you conform that same footage to a playback speed of 25 fps it looks like slowmotion. (this is what the gh4 (up to a frame rate of 96 fps) and the sony (up to 120?) do for you already)

 

If you conform footage that is recorded at 5fps to a playback speed of 5 fps it plays back 'realtime'. ( this is what the sony does already, within a 25 fps container)

If you conform that same footage to a playback speed of 25 fps it looks like sped up motion. (this is what the GH4 does for you already)

 

So the GH4 interprets each frame as one frame at the chosen fps (24,25,30) and calls it 'variable frame rate' the variable being the record speed, not the playback speed.

 

The Sony interprets it 2 ways. Higher framerates are interpreted the same as with the GH4 (as far as I know). Lower frame rates via an other setting (bulb mode) are interpreted according to there record time (within a 24, 25, 30 fps container) and playback in 'realtime'.

 

Apart from how the camera handles it, the footage in the end is nothing more or less than an image sequence and it's really up to you to decide what you do with it. In AE for instance you can choose how the footage should be interpreted before you drop it in a timeline. No doubt other software can do something similar.

 

Add exposure time in the mix and you really can go wild.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I went out at dawn and shot some stuff on the 5D, apparently, it's actually a very useful feature for lightly moving subjects, I could shoot landscapes, trees, building, etc at 15fps and gain 1+ stop of exposure and it fits in a 25p wrapper fine. 

This is another benefit, lowlight, you can even be more adventurous especially for static subjects and shoot at very dark situations and it looks fine to viewers no one sees a difference. 

The fact that it's done in camera makes it usable instead of stitching frames in post, makes it a bit mote psychologically acceptable at least, you're shooting video and go home with video files. 

Another subject, sun came up and I experimented with shooting at odd framerates such as 35p, has anybody ever done that? It's beautiful. Not quite slowmotion but not ''real-life'' and gives a pretty damn filmic aesthetic for some reason. 35-40p (slowed down to 24p). I encourage people to try it on moving subjects and on shoots where you want a surreal look. 

[agolex]

I went out at dawn and shot some stuff on the 5D, apparently, it's actually a very useful feature for lightly moving subjects, I could shoot landscapes, trees, building, etc at 15fps and gain 1+ stop of exposure and it fits in a 25p wrapper fine. 

Went out with the RX10M2 yesterday and did the same. On horses at dusk. Went without a tripod and realized that at 1/4 it's really hard not to screw up the images, but it's kinda doable with SteadyShot.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

1/4s handheld, that's some ninja style shooting there!

Are you keeping yours 4 and 15p real time or speeding it up? I think I'll go with sped up but still not sure. 

Shooting 15p in 2015, reader are probably shaking their heads in despise  

[agolex]

It's really doable with the decent stabilization, but you have to hold pretty still.

Shooting 1/4 25 fps and then speeding up in Resolve 400% (as I haven't figured out yet to speed it up 500%). Still trying around, though.

Well, we have to go back to old techniques to get some freshness going.

[richg101]

It's really doable with the decent stabilization, but you have to hold pretty still.

Shooting 1/4 25 fps and then speeding up in Resolve 400% (as I haven't figured out yet to speed it up 500%). Still trying around, though.

Well, we have to go back to old techniques to get some freshness going.

the technique seems to hate fast camera motion since with camera movement everything is moving, whereas, with locked down shots, the static objects are sharp, and the moving ones have a blur trail.  you might wanna try 1/8th of a second for handheld, then only speed up by 300%.   

[agolex]

the technique seems to hate fast camera motion since with camera movement everything is moving, whereas, with locked down shots, the static objects are sharp, and the moving ones have a blur trail.  you might wanna try 1/8th of a second for handheld, then only speed up by 300%.   

Will do, thanks for the input!

[shooter]

 

If you conform footage that is recorded at 5fps to a playback speed of 5 fps it plays back 'realtime'. ( this is what the sony does already, within a 25 fps container)

 

Apart from how the camera handles it, the footage in the end is nothing more or less than an image sequence and it's really up to you to decide what you do with it. In AE for instance you can choose how the footage should be interpreted before you drop it in a timeline. No doubt other software can do something similar.

 

Add exposure time in the mix and you really can go wild.

So, why and how to say there are not duplicated frames?

Now my turn to say there's a physical impossibility... 5 fps are 5 fps, 25 fps are 25 fps. If we have 5 frames within a 25 fps container (at normal speed), 20 frames must be exact duplicated frames of the other 5 frames. Otherwise, they would appear sped up when playback at 25 fps , correct?

[wolf33d]

Incredible thread. Anyone who argued with Ebrahim here should seriously consider speeding up their neurones instead of speeding up their footages.

[shooter]

Incredible thread. Anyone who argued with Ebrahim here should seriously consider speeding up their neurones instead of speeding up their footages.

Put out of here you and your insane posts. What do you think? Your nonsense is already known of your readers. At least of this lurker here before you had ever noticed of this thread. Speaking of devil, I'm still waiting for a fair explanation on the duplicated frames, refuted but still to be clarified.

[bunk]

So, why and how to say there are not duplicated frames?

Now my turn to say there's a physical impossibility... 5 fps are 5 fps, 25 fps are 25 fps. If we have 5 frames within a 25 fps container (at normal speed), 20 frames must be exact duplicated frames of the other 5 frames. Otherwise, they would appear sped up when playback at 25 fps , correct?

Editing software, 25fps timeline, 5 jpg's of your choice.

Drop the 5 jpg's on the timeline. Depending on your settings each jpg will last a couple of frames. Make sure each jpg has a duration of 5 frames. Drop the jpg's one after another.

Play your movie, it has a duration of 1 second.

There are only 5 jpg's.

The timeline is a 25fps timeline.

 

The jpg's are not duplicated instead they are on a hold for five frames each. Same effect, different more efficient code as the frame only has to be calculated once.

 

Whatever is happening in camera - duplication or the "hold code". One thing is not happening and that is that you have an exposure of 1/5 th of a second per frame in a 25 fps timeline ...unless maybe you are a time traveler.

[shooter]

Editing software, 25fps timeline, 5 jpg's of your choice.

Drop the 5 jpg's on the timeline. Depending on your settings each jpg will last a couple of frames. Make sure each jpg has a duration of 5 frames. Drop the jpg's one after another.

Play your movie, it has a duration of 1 second.

There are only 5 jpg's.

The timeline is a 25fps timeline.

 

The jpg's are not duplicated instead they are on a hold for five frames each. Same effect, different more efficient code as the frame only has to be calculated once.

 

Whatever is happening in camera - duplication or the "hold code". One thing is not happening and that is that you have an exposure of 1/5 th of a second per frame in a 25 fps timeline ...unless maybe you are a time traveler.

Thank you for your explanation. I just don't understand or can't agree to not call them duplicated frames. Why? Each frame corresponds to a picture. I mean, if each JPEG corresponds to 5 frames, there are 5 identical frames of each JPEG (5 different frames within the 25 fps timeline), so? Duplicated frames (per each different JPEG in a total of 5). It is not like that?

[Volker Schmidt]

It is like that.

[shooter]

It is like that.

Correct. I think the point is the door the electronic shutter opens. I think a few people missed the reason for this thread. To shoot with a real slow shutter doesn't mean mechanical shutter anymore. You'd finish with yours in the end of a week if you'd go to the street from Monday to Friday to shoot 2 hours of slow shutter footage per day. I still wonder which Canon DSLR cameras allow it, for example.

I never shot time lapse, so I am also interested to know what cameras allow me to shoot continuously (not buffer, not mechanical shutter), limited to the battery, 5 frames per second for example?