Sony A7R II gets DxO marked

[Triumph61]

So I will use my focus peaking on the D810 to focus…..what no focus peaking?  Ok I will magnify the image to focus…..Nope?  OK so I will shoot at waist level to not attract attention to my filming……I can't?   OK well at least I can use my Canon 50mm 1.2 on my D810 and some of my other legacy glass…..No again?    Yep, that D810 is looking like a cracking competitive option to the Sony,   OK OK  I will at least have IS on all my lenses….Nope?   4k?….Nope…hmmmm,   Log options?    That D810 is looking like the obvious option  :-)

[gelaxstudio]

5Ds gives 11 stops of dynamic range in video mode at Neutral Picture style and an incredibly detailed HD image without any aliasing/moire just like full pixel readout sensors. I have no idea where 7 stops come from it's incorrect. Plus it has all that whilst being a camera not designed for video at all, even the company tells you so. 

Seriously？If 5Ds gives us 11 stops of dynamic range in video without using C-log？Then why people still need C-LOG and cinestyle for？LOL？ 

7  stops  is the result based on Andrew‘s 5D3 video test ，DSLR videos without LOG mostly closed to jpeg latitude  level  which is about 7  stops~

 

[Mattias Burling]

The 5D is struggling to give 11 stops in Raw, imo. 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

JPEGs from the 5D are not 7 stops, they're 10-11 if picture style contrast slider is -4 and about 7-8 stops if it's +7 maxed out. 

 

I've studied Canon DSLRs to the point of being ready to get a PhD in Canonology. I've done more scientific testing to these cameras than anyone could ever be patient to do but for some reason I was enjoying testing even more than paid work using them. I was absolutely fascinated by the cinema images that came out of them therefore starting testing, and testing, and testing, non-endlessly. 

I've comprehensively tested 71 picture styles on 3-4 DSLR models, accurate testing for DR, colour science, noise, compression changes, gradeability, (that's 2-4 month worth of work), then after that started comprehensively studying and testing the creation of picture styles to change image quality. A boring 1-month work. 

I've come to these 100% correct facts,

-Using a 16 stops DR chart, All Canon DSLRs have the EXACT amount of dynamic range in video mode, from the 1100D to 5D MKIII. Meaning they clip the highlights and clip the shadows at the exact same point. 

The only way you can adjust that DR is using the contrast slider in-camera, the reduction from zero to -4 is exactly one stop in the highlights and one stop in the shadows. 

After in-camera -4 contrast (using any PS), there's absolutely zero ability to increase DR beyond that. It cannot be done, not by applying a LOG curve before compression, not by anything, the is LOCKED by the downscale and codec. Adding LOG to Canon SLRs codecs (either Cinestyle or your own accurate LOG curve) does not change clipping points at both end, not even by 1%. All it does, is lower the highlights and raise the shadows within the same DR container, affecting mid-tone distribution. So the benefit of these on a Canon DSLR is only limited to inter-cutting with flat-Log material so they'd be graded using the same De-Log workflow and colour grade. 

The only element PS changes radically is colour science, in Canon DSLRs you can create any colour science look and make changes to each individual colour therefore it's useful if you want to tweak a certain colour you don't like, it gives enormous control over that, that's why PS for sale all alter the Canon Colour science to different degrees. 

I am getting off trail. 

Dynamic range, from the brightest clipping point to the darkest absolute black clipping point, they all have 11 stops of light. Exactly. Tested and tested and tested and tested. 

This is the numerical DR, but in real life, once the image gets darker in the shadows, noise is increased and codec artefacts, therefore the effective actual DR of Canon DSLRs will solely depend on YOUR judgment of what level of shadow noise is acceptable. For, my Canons have 10 stops if I clean up shadows a bit and 9 in I want clean shadows. Depends truly on your judgement. That's why DR is not a hard number to measure unfortunately. For example a camera can have 11 stops of DR which all of them are gorgeous and minimal shadow noise (this is Canon DSLRs shooting raw and removing the awesome fine grain), while another camera can have 14 stops of DR but the last 4 stops are simply unusable due to codec artefacts and noise. So, Canon DSLRs have 11 absolute stops but the h.264 codec artefacts in the shadows render a part of it un-usable, vs ML RAW which although have the same DR, the codec and noise make you effectively able to use it all in the final image due to the clean noise shadows to be easily cleaned up. 

*These were all my DR/PS knowledge I gathered through the years for anyone interested.

The D810: Also exactly 11 stops of absolute DR which I find strange how both companies are sharing the EAXCT same clipping points in video mode regardless of the raw stlls DR, almost seems on-purpose to limit it to 11 in 8bit h.264. BUT, the shadows are so clean and the codec is so lovely that on the D810 ALL of it is usable, making it very, very similar DR window to 5D RAW (but the 5d raw contains SO much more information INSIDE that window, being 14bit vs 8bit, mid-tones/skin is obviously enormously attached to that, but now we're entering a different subject from DR).

 

A piece of trivia: the A7s in SLOG2 is the first, absolute first camera to change that DR window taking it to about 12.5 stops fully usable shooting S-LOG2, the clipping window is truly expanded, a first for me to see, so DR lovers should really shoot a7s Slog2, the highest DR on this price bracket,

I hated the colours and all the ergonomics of it (size, batteries, LCD, menus, navigation, mount) and preferred having the D810 11 stops with Nikon rich gamut (just overall better image) and better ergonomics (though giving up the awesome EVF and peaking). 

The only camera I used that has the 5D/D810 rich colours AND ergonomics AND a7s DR AND a7s lowlight, is the 1DC. And that's why we fell in love. The only thing it lacks from being the mythical perfect camera for almost 90% of videographic/cinema applications, is EVF and peaking and NNDs. I'd buy an upgraded version with these three features inside the body/firmware and never look for another camera until 8K is adopted and I am forced to shoot it, as it's a perfect 4K image that holds through the entire era up to F55/Red 4K, I'll never want more. I'd buy it even at the old price and stop camera buying for 5-8 years. If only the arrogant Canon give it two ML features. 

 

 

 

[Emanuel]

 

I've studied Canon DSLRs to the point of being ready to get a PhD in Canonology.

 

I vehemently concur! : ) Gotten, Doc... ;-)

[lafilm]

JPEGs from the 5D are not 7 stops, they're 10-11 if picture style contrast slider is -4 and about 7-8 stops if it's +7 maxed out. 

 

I've studied Canon DSLRs to the point of being ready to get a PhD in Canonology. I've done more scientific testing to these cameras than anyone could ever be patient to do but for some reason I was enjoying testing even more than paid work using them. I was absolutely fascinated by the cinema images that came out of them therefore starting testing, and testing, and testing, non-endlessly. 

I've comprehensively tested 71 picture styles on 3-4 DSLR models, accurate testing for DR, colour science, noise, compression changes, gradeability, (that's 2-4 month worth of work), then after that started comprehensively studying and testing the creation of picture styles to change image quality. A boring 1-month work. 

I've come to these 100% correct facts,

-Using a 16 stops DR chart, All Canon DSLRs have the EXACT amount of dynamic range in video mode, from the 1100D to 5D MKIII. Meaning they clip the highlights and clip the shadows at the exact same point. 

The only way you can adjust that DR is using the contrast slider in-camera, the reduction from zero to -4 is exactly one stop in the highlights and one stop in the shadows. 

After in-camera -4 contrast (using any PS), there's absolutely zero ability to increase DR beyond that. It cannot be done, not by applying a LOG curve before compression, not by anything, the is LOCKED by the downscale and codec. Adding LOG to Canon SLRs codecs (either Cinestyle or your own accurate LOG curve) does not change clipping points at both end, not even by 1%. All it does, is lower the highlights and raise the shadows within the same DR container, affecting mid-tone distribution. So the benefit of these on a Canon DSLR is only limited to inter-cutting with flat-Log material so they'd be graded using the same De-Log workflow and colour grade. 

The only element PS changes radically is colour science, in Canon DSLRs you can create any colour science look and make changes to each individual colour therefore it's useful if you want to tweak a certain colour you don't like, it gives enormous control over that, that's why PS for sale all alter the Canon Colour science to different degrees. 

I am getting off trail. 

Dynamic range, from the brightest clipping point to the darkest absolute black clipping point, they all have 11 stops of light. Exactly. Tested and tested and tested and tested. 

This is the numerical DR, but in real life, once the image gets darker in the shadows, noise is increased and codec artefacts, therefore the effective actual DR of Canon DSLRs will solely depend on YOUR judgment of what level of shadow noise is acceptable. For, my Canons have 10 stops if I clean up shadows a bit and 9 in I want clean shadows. Depends truly on your judgement. That's why DR is not a hard number to measure unfortunately. For example a camera can have 11 stops of DR which all of them are gorgeous and minimal shadow noise (this is Canon DSLRs shooting raw and removing the awesome fine grain), while another camera can have 14 stops of DR but the last 4 stops are simply unusable due to codec artefacts and noise. So, Canon DSLRs have 11 absolute stops but the h.264 codec artefacts in the shadows render a part of it un-usable, vs ML RAW which although have the same DR, the codec and noise make you effectively able to use it all in the final image due to the clean noise shadows to be easily cleaned up. 

*These were all my DR/PS knowledge I gathered through the years for anyone interested.

The D810: Also exactly 11 stops of absolute DR which I find strange how both companies are sharing the EAXCT same clipping points in video mode regardless of the raw stlls DR, almost seems on-purpose to limit it to 11 in 8bit h.264. BUT, the shadows are so clean and the codec is so lovely that on the D810 ALL of it is usable, making it very, very similar DR window to 5D RAW (but the 5d raw contains SO much more information INSIDE that window, being 14bit vs 8bit, mid-tones/skin is obviously enormously attached to that, but now we're entering a different subject from DR).

 

A piece of trivia: the A7s in SLOG2 is the first, absolute first camera to change that DR window taking it to about 12.5 stops fully usable shooting S-LOG2, the clipping window is truly expanded, a first for me to see, so DR lovers should really shoot a7s Slog2, the highest DR on this price bracket,

I hated the colours and all the ergonomics of it (size, batteries, LCD, menus, navigation, mount) and preferred having the D810 11 stops with Nikon rich gamut (just overall better image) and better ergonomics (though giving up the awesome EVF and peaking). 

The only camera I used that has the 5D/D810 rich colours AND ergonomics AND a7s DR AND a7s lowlight, is the 1DC. And that's why we fell in love. The only thing it lacks from being the mythical perfect camera for almost 90% of videographic/cinema applications, is EVF and peaking and NNDs. I'd buy an upgraded version with these three features inside the body/firmware and never look for another camera until 8K is adopted and I am forced to shoot it, as it's a perfect 4K image that holds through the entire era up to F55/Red 4K, I'll never want more. I'd buy it even at the old price and stop camera buying for 5-8 years. If only the arrogant Canon give it two ML features. 

 

 

 

Ebrahim, I agree with the Canon 1D C assessment. Amazing Canon does not include any peaking/zebra/frame guides with the 1D C. 

The image however, from the 1D C 4K DCI is spectacular. I prefer it over almost everything I've seen under $40,000.

Why not use/put the Small HD 502 or the Ninja Assassin on top of the 1D C?

Is it a weight problem? 

Wouldn't the extra size of the external monitor help focusing over the 1DC's 3.2 inch LCD screen anyway?

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Gotten, Doc... ;-)

Well unfortunately doc.is my official title, and I specifically seem to hate it for some reason, Dr. or plain name is much better (plain name being best), and also specifically despise ''dude'' for another unknown reason, but not pal, fella, man, bro, etc. Well that's another subject on semantics/semasiology, so going back to Canonology:

Why not use/put the Small HD 502 or the Ninja Assassin on top of the 1D C?

It's a couple of reasons @lafilm 

-Size and weight:

I own a Canon 1Ds stills, the 1DC is already on the verge of the maximum bare-bones shootable size for me to use as an all-purpose production camera, so having that AND a shogun/501 takes it over the edge.

-Ergonomics

A 1DC is a tall thin camera, very tall, and adding a 5''/7'' monitor on the hot shoe, it's a ridiculous unbalanced tower to shoot normally with. I frequently do it with a 5'' monitor on a 60D/5D and already very ergonomically annoying, I have the BM Video-Assist on pre-order (for a couple of years now). And if I want it somewhere else other than the hotshoe, rigging is now a whole new issue. Doesn't help that I don't like using them att exceptt for absolute necessity, and doesn't help that all the rigs and cages I own are 5D optimized (and every other camera, just not the tall 1D).

-HDMI Cable 

Relying on it, in terms of robustness and even if not, it's an extra cable to annoy me.

-Power

It's another hungry device that has a different battery type and battery life from the kit.

-Cost

It's just not psychologically acceptable for me to invest in it, settle for all the previous, and pay a 1000-1500$ premium just to get focus and exposure assist. 

The issue is that these screens are capable of it (with ML), very very clear for focusing and framing just with a few enhancement firmware tools (Digic Peaking + Waveform (small). I mean come on Canon. We're not asking for it on a 5D, or even a 1D (which we should do), but on a C-Line camera.

K.I.S.S. A  barebones1D + Canon 35mm IS prime + card is something to love shooting with, simple, effective and alexa/c500/red-grade results.

 

*Are we sure people or at least owners of the 1Dc do send/contact Canon asking for this feature or just state it to themselves and on forums? (Canon doesn't read forums unfortunately unlike panasonic, sony and samsung)

[Emanuel]

Well unfortunately doc.is my official title, and I specifically seem to hate it for some reason, Dr. or plain name is much better (plain name being best), and also specifically despise ''dude'' for another unknown reason, but not pal, fella, man, bro, etc. Well that's another subject on semantics/semasiology (...)

Ebrahim, you're unique. Pity I am not in Egypt or I know where I'd let someone to care the front page of my real expression...

Greetings only a little bit more to Northwest from you,

- Emanuel :-)

[hmcindie]

 

-Cost

It's just not psychologically acceptable for me to invest in it, settle for all the previous, and pay a 1000-1500$ premium just to get focus and exposure assist. 

Ehm? Focus can't be nailed by just using a focus assist (or peaking). For example the peaking in the A7s is constantly a bit off. Best way to focus is a good quality and large monitor. Also watching playback on the tiny weeny lcd that cameras have is just not good. 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Ehm? Focus can't be nailed by just using a focus assist (or peaking). For example the peaking in the A7s is constantly a bit off. Best way to focus is a good quality and large monitor. Also watching playback on the tiny weeny lcd that cameras have is just not good. 

You can't beat a tape measure and a distance scale.

[lafilm]

Well unfortunately doc.is my official title, and I specifically seem to hate it for some reason, Dr. or plain name is much better (plain name being best), and also specifically despise ''dude'' for another unknown reason, but not pal, fella, man, bro, etc. Well that's another subject on semantics/semasiology, so going back to Canonology:

It's a couple of reasons @lafilm 

-Size and weight:

I own a Canon 1Ds stills, the 1DC is already on the verge of the maximum bare-bones shootable size for me to use as an all-purpose production camera, so having that AND a shogun/501 takes it over the edge.

-Ergonomics

A 1DC is a tall thin camera, very tall, and adding a 5''/7'' monitor on the hot shoe, it's a ridiculous unbalanced tower to shoot normally with. I frequently do it with a 5'' monitor on a 60D/5D and already very ergonomically annoying, I have the BM Video-Assist on pre-order (for a couple of years now). And if I want it somewhere else other than the hotshoe, rigging is now a whole new issue. Doesn't help that I don't like using them att exceptt for absolute necessity, and doesn't help that all the rigs and cages I own are 5D optimized (and every other camera, just not the tall 1D).

-HDMI Cable 

Relying on it, in terms of robustness and even if not, it's an extra cable to annoy me.

-Power

It's another hungry device that has a different battery type and battery life from the kit.

-Cost

It's just not psychologically acceptable for me to invest in it, settle for all the previous, and pay a 1000-1500$ premium just to get focus and exposure assist. 

The issue is that these screens are capable of it (with ML), very very clear for focusing and framing just with a few enhancement firmware tools (Digic Peaking + Waveform (small). I mean come on Canon. We're not asking for it on a 5D, or even a 1D (which we should do), but on a C-Line camera.

K.I.S.S. A  barebones1D + Canon 35mm IS prime + card is something to love shooting with, simple, effective and alexa/c500/red-grade results.

 

*Are we sure people or at least owners of the 1Dc do send/contact Canon asking for this feature or just state it to themselves and on forums? (Canon doesn't read forums unfortunately unlike panasonic, sony and samsung)

Ebrahim, thanks for your reply.

Nice rundown on all the features (or lack of). I agree with all of it. The weight/ergo without a doubt the biggest issue with external monitors and the 1D C.

I would say ML could solve the problems but we all know their stance (unfortunately) on the 1D C/1D X and the soon to be released 1D X ii.

I understand the procrastination (not really) on Canon's D line, but like you say, it truly makes zero sense for the lack of exposure on the "C" line. 

Psychologically, the money is hard to swallow. Not sure you have an option, however if you want to stay with the 1D C. 

Seems that it's a long shot for a 1D C ii because of the financial failure of the original. Maybe the 1D X ii will solve these issues. (No I don't really believe that lol).

Possibly just move over to the Sony A7s ii. This new cam ticks all these boxes. Minus, of course the amazing stills capability of the Canon 1D C.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Possibly just move over to the Sony A7s ii. This new cam ticks all these boxes. Minus, of course the amazing stills capability of the Canon 1D C.

Sadly I don't think you'll be happy doing that vs the 1DC. I don't really care for specs, if the A7sII has the same image as the a7s with external recorder 4k (which it will most likely be worse as the external is 4:2:2 350mb0s ProRes HQ vs 100mbs 4:2:0 XAVC-L) or a7rII (heat issues, aliasing, blue channel clipping, horrid colour science of S-LOG2, then it's not a substitute for the 1DC, full stop.

The image is simply miles apart. Strange how the image is not the no.1 factor nowadays.

(I'd really rather give up peaking/zebras vs image quality, any day. The Canon 1DC even has enormously better stabilization system vs the terrible a7ii/a7rii one, something many seem to overlook just because the a7s one is spec-impressive, the 550D with a 150$ 18-55mm STM IS has enormously better IS vs everything I've seen from the A7 IBIS,, maybe a7sii is tweaked)

[lafilm]

Sadly I don't think you'll be happy doing that vs the 1DC. I don't really care for specs, if the A7sII has the same image as the a7s with external recorder 4k (which it will most likely be worse as the external is 4:2:2 350mb0s ProRes HQ vs 100mbs 4:2:0 XAVC-L) or a7rII (heat issues, aliasing, blue channel clipping, horrid colour science of S-LOG2, then it's not a substitute for the 1DC, full stop.

The image is simply miles apart. Strange how the image is not the no.1 factor nowadays.

(I'd really rather give up peaking/zebras vs image quality, any day. The Canon 1DC even has enormously better stabilization system vs the terrible a7ii/a7rii one, something many seem to overlook just because the a7s one is spec-impressive, the 550D with a 150$ 18-55mm STM IS has enormously better IS vs everything I've seen from the A7 IBIS,, maybe a7sii is tweaked)

I hear you. Completely agree. May like the new A7s ii' thicker body a bit more. Tempted.

Don't forget, Den Lennie has gone on record saying that the new IBIS is the best he has ever seen. Hmmm....

Canon will be releasing their new 1D X ii before Christmas.

I believe this will tell us exactly where they are going with their DSLR's. It's hard to accept Canon would put 4K internal with all exposure assist in the new 1D X (with the 1D C looming), but you really never know from this strange company. 

I'm not really sold on the new 1D X ii will be for photogs, and, early 2016's new 5D4 will be for videographers.

Canon has never split them before, and the 1D X has always been the superior camera. We'll know soon.

Their ultimate decision could make 1D C owners very angry.

However, I'll go with theory that ultimately they must give the 1D C crowd their long 3 year + exposure firmware update. 

If they do, their new C300 mrk ii seems safe to me.

Surely they must realize that now thanks to Sony.