Sony FS1 - September 11

[wolf33d]

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-new-fs-e-mount-4k-camcorder-to-be-announced-soon/

Cool.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

It's official an FS1 will be announced in IBC. Lets predict specs. 

All we have is an outline of the form factor, which looks identical to the outline of the C300. 

An FS7 that smaller, lighter, with a flush bottom (no shoulder curve, C300), EVF at the back, Same handle and Top LCD as the FS7. This is what we know. The general form. 

 

Speculation.

 

They are saying it's the #MissingPiece between the FS700 as FS7, the former is 4000$ and the later is 8000$, so it's going to be 5000-6000$. 

It will need to have features removed from the FS7, most likely: 

1 -XDCA: RAW/240p/ProRes/V-Lock support

2 -60p at 4K will most likely go along with 180-200 1080p, 

3 -Less number of buttons and slightly weaker body overall but still solid (think C300 vs C100 30-40% smaller)

4 -Non-removable more traditional grip on the side without the extension unit 

5 -Few Pro connections will go like Timecode/Genlock/RawOut/HD-SDI

Otherwise will be the same as the FS7 aside from those, which would make it a very compelling package without cannabalizing neither the FS7 nor the FS700 (for the higher performance of 4K raw/240p/odeyssy package) 

So,

-Same sensor of course and E-Mount 

-Handheld Camcorder design like the C300/C100 

-NDs, XLRs, Top handle, EVF and LCD, Sony great small EX1 batteries 

-S-LOG2 and 3, Full HDMI 4K 10bit 4:2:2

The only thing I am not sure of is the media type and therefore the recording formats, whether they'll go for XAVC-I 10bit 4:2:2 4K like the FS7 (and hence XQD) or XAVC-S 8bit 4:2:0 100mbps like the A7s (SD cards). I expect XAVC-Iike the FS7 just to have the upper hand over C100 8bit signature plus the many other benefits the FS7 still has, so this could record the same 4K 24p XAVC image at a smaller footprint. 

Anyway it's a smash for the C100 Mark II, which has no advantages other than native EF mount, Autofocus system, menu system and C-Log colours if one likes that. They'll need to update it with a C100 MKIII 4K sooner than they normally expected. 

 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Slight tangent, but why would you ever advertise a product announcement for September 11th? Isn't that just asking for unfortunate associations? 

I guess it may not be as problematic to a Japanese company.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Just happens to be IBC time, the show where they announced the FS7 last year.

It'll probably be officially announced on the 10th and presented at the show at the 11th. 

I am looking forward to this and how they're going to go. It can be something unexpected like a FF e-mount camcorder recording to 4K from the a7s sensor or a camera that shoots the same fs7/700/f5 for 5000$. 

 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

I really doubt it'll be full frame. The APS-C modes of the A7S and A7R II have performed better than full frame anyway, so why bother? Make a great S35 camera and let the FF nuts use a speed booster.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Y

I really doubt it'll be full frame. The APS-C modes of the A7S and A7R II have performed better than full frame anyway, so why bother? Make a great S35 camera and let the FF nuts use a speed booster.

Me too. I am 90% sure it's going to have their standard, well performing, 8mp s35 sensor inside the fs700, fs7, f5, (and to a huge degree f55).

They already make lots of it (cost effective) and people love it vs their stills sensors because of the lowlight performance, rolling shutter, the 14 stops of DR and very high frame rates up to 240p at full HD and 120p and 4K (FS700).

Their 4K stills sensors with 4K have non-acceptable rolling shutter for an FS100 cine successor, plus non standard s35 4K, also aliasing/moire. 

The native s35 4K 17:9 sensor is a much better sensor for video/cinema.

[Oliver Daniel]

Let's not forget on the advertising that they claim this camera is groundbreaking.

What exactly could be groundbreaking about the camera, other than being a watered down FS7? 

I'm sure this camera may have something that the FS7 doesn't to make it appeal further (but watered down in other regards). 

I hope the groundbreaking feature isn't a new menu system. :-p That should be done - but I bet it won't be! 

[BrorSvensson]

Hope they dont skip slog 3

[TheRenaissanceMan]

S-LOG 3 and SGAMUT3.cine would make this camera a star. I don't think most people realize what a difference it makes in grading, but the color science with Sony's Type A LUT is very, very close to Alexa.

[jax_rox]

I hope the groundbreaking feature isn't a new menu system. :-p That should be done - but I bet it won't be! 

Sony implementing a menu system that's easy to understand and makes sense from a user perspective WOULD be groundbreaking!!!

They tried to hard to go the Alexa-style menu route with the F5/55 and failed so, so miserably

[Oliver Daniel]

Sony implementing a menu system that's easy to understand and makes sense from a user perspective WOULD be groundbreaking!!!

They tried to hard to go the Alexa-style menu route with the F5/55 and failed so, so miserably

True. 

I'm shooting on the F55 tomorrow. Lucky menu day!!

So the recent rumours suggest it has the "A7S" sensor... so the groundbreaking part is a camcorder with high sensitivity? I'm guessing they would exclude 4k 60p and have the highest frame rates at 100p in HD. 

It would also be interesting if it was 10 bit. There has been talk on this forum lately saying there is hardly any difference with 10bit vs 8bit. From what I've seen from my recent tests on the FS7 codecs - there is a MASSIVE difference. 8bit codec highlights in some shots had banding galore, heavy macro blocking and a mess of colour information - whereas the 10bit codec was clean and could be pushed around much, much more. 

My judgement of the A7S' low light ability is that it comes with very serious issues if used for professional work - mostly due to the sick cocktail of colour and the awful amount of noise, plus loss of resolution. The sensor in a more powerful, video-centric body might improve on this. We'll see eh! 

[IronFilm]

I've been suggesting for a while now that an FS1 is just around the corner, nice to see I'm right! I blogged my thoughts on it last month:

 

http://ironfilm.co.nz/sony-fs100-discontinued-sony-fs1-coming-soon/

[jax_rox]

So the recent rumours suggest it has the "A7S" sensor... so the groundbreaking part is a camcorder with high sensitivity? I'm guessing they would exclude 4k 60p and have the highest frame rates at 100p in HD. 

It would also be interesting if it was 10 bit. There has been talk on this forum lately saying there is hardly any difference with 10bit vs 8bit. From what I've seen from my recent tests on the FS7 codecs - there is a MASSIVE difference. 8bit codec highlights in some shots had banding galore, heavy macro blocking and a mess of colour information - whereas the 10bit codec was clean and could be pushed around much, much more. 

My judgement of the A7S' low light ability is that it comes with very serious issues if used for professional work - mostly due to the sick cocktail of colour and the awful amount of noise, plus loss of resolution. The sensor in a more powerful, video-centric body might improve on this. We'll see eh! 

If this is an A7s with a real camera body, 10-bit, 4k, S-log and a reasonable price, I might buy it immediately.

Guess we'll see on the 11th!

[Liam]

so.. if it's the a7s sensor and 4k internal, it would have to be full frame, right?

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Yeah, and the the same massive rolling shutter issues. Maybe it'll be an updated version of the A7S sensor with the new stacked sensor design for less RS and higher frame rates. I doubt strongly that this will be an 10-bit camera, so slo-mo will be a great way to differentiate it from the A7S. Internal 4K, but no 10-bit, no XAVC (stick with XAVC-S), and probably S-LOG 2 and S-Gamut 1. 

Give it internal NDs and XLRs, and it'd sell like gangbusters to the documentary crowd. 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

If it's the A7s sensor three things MUST be fixed:

Rolling shutter,

Aliasing at 4K,

Weird colours and excessive blue artefacting.

I am still wishing for the s35 4K sensor in the fs700/fs7/f5, really a much better chip (14 stops of DR in raw performance at 2000 ISO vs 10-11 stops, no aliasing, minimal RS, great colours, high speed, similar lowlight performance, and can go FF with a SB).

Maybe it's an expensive sensor for a 5000$ camera but again it's now in a 4000$ one (FS700),

so unless they significantly improve upon the A7s sensor, I hope it's not put as is in a camcorder body for +5000$. 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Rolling shutter,

Aliasing at 4K,

Weird colours and excessive blue artefacting.

If they update the sensor with the new stacked architecture, it could conceivably fix the RS issue. Issues with weird colors and blue artifacting come from S-Gamut 1. Either use Sony LUTs/ACES to properly transform your footage to r709/P3, or just avoid using S-Gamut. The colors may still not be to your liking, but that's a whole separate issue--and much more easily tackled. 

I can't see them putting the F5/FS7 sensor in this camera. Maybe if they restricted it to 8-bit, but I think it's going to be full frame, and the A7R II sensor doesn't make sense in a camcorder. 

[Kristoferman]

If they update the sensor with the new stacked architecture, it could conceivably fix the RS issue. Issues with weird colors and blue artifacting come from S-Gamut 1. Either use Sony LUTs/ACES to properly transform your footage to r709/P3, or just avoid using S-Gamut. The colors may still not be to your liking, but that's a whole separate issue--and much more easily tackled. 
I can't see them putting the F5/FS7 sensor in this camera. Maybe if they restricted it to 8-bit, but I think it's going to be full frame, and the A7R II sensor doesn't make sense in a camcorder. 

 do you happen to know of a tutorial or article that goes over the a7s -----> aces workflow? 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I can't see them putting the F5/FS7 sensor in this camera. 

I am optimistic because of Sony aggressive behaviour. The 4000$ FS100 has the 14000$ F3 sensor, the 4000$ FS700 has the 16000$ F5 sensor now, of course limited to a degree, but I can't rule out just having that great FS700/FS7 sensor with a 4K XAVC UHD mode, even 8bit 422 XAVC-L would be great. It's an amazing image you get from that chip at 4K.

They can leave raw 16bit, raw 12bit, XAVC-I 10bit, 4K DCI, XDCA SDI/Genlock/Timecode/240p2K/120p4K and just leave it at 120pHD and 30pUHD.

It would be a killer camcorder without threatening any models, C100 but with 4K, higher DR, internal broadcast codec, and slowmotion.

I'll be disappointed with the same a7s chip with major performance upgrades.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

I'll be disappointed with the same a7s chip with major performance upgrades.

Fix the RS and give it a nice C100ish form factor with XLRs, and I see documentary/event shooters sprinting to buy it. 

It feels like the low-end market is obsessed with high ISO and full frame, so that's where I see this lower-end interchangeable-lens camcorder going. 

People slam that 12MP sensor as inadequate for stills anyway--might as well pack it in a video body.

Give us that, and I wouldn't be disappointed. Hell, I'd even consider buying it, and I'm locked in with Mu43.

 do you happen to know of a tutorial or article that goes over the a7s -----> aces workflow? 

Sorry, can't say I do. I've just talked to a few people here and on BMC User who said they use that workflow.