User Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hello folks, I've come to really appreciate this forum and the great wealth of experience held by it's members. Here goes:1st question:Does anyone have experience with mixing 1080 and 4k footage in a doc film? I've been shooting a film in 1080 (Sony EX1 and Canon 5Dii) and am now moving towards a new camera to continue shooting. I was thinking of going to go with another 1080 camera but when I see the detail of 4k it's hard not to want this. I understand that a story can allow for different combinations of footage and the 'look' that goes with that footage, but I'm curious if anyone here has been down this road? Any examples?2nd question:I have 2 to pick up a new camera package in the next 10 days and had been carefully considering the A7s, A7rii, C100Mkii and Black Magic Ursa Mini. I had been hoping that the Sony A7rii would be a great all-arounder for both 1080, 4k and stills but it seems there is 'issues' on all front. Plus it seems just too small and fiddly to me, and those lame batteries. Also by the time one adds all the accessories (ie. xlr audio unit, Metabones, cage, batteries, extra charger) to get it functional it starts to add up. However it is nice that it strips down so small.Anyway, last night I began looking at a camera that had previously never interested me at all, the GH4. The EF to MFT Metabones made it a more interesting proposition as I have some decent Canon L glass. The Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 seems a beautiful match although I really with it had IS. I am considering the Canon 16-35mm f4 IS as well.Keeping my 1st question in mind, can anyone make a comment on their experience shooting doc film with the GH4 using the Metabones EF to MFT? Is there a good resource I can study to get a better understanding of how to get the most from this camera? Audio preamp quality? Stills quality? Would you buy this camera? Would you combine 1080 and 4k from the GH4? Does the V-Log REALLY and TRUELY add 2 extra stops of DR? I would probably have gone with the C100Mkii but the image just seems soft after 4k.Looking forward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 The Doc Searching for SugarMan (2012) used all sorts of different camera footage - he ran out of money & had to resort to using his iPhone (not one of the new ones, but one circa 2010/11) to film a portion of it.So might be worth doing some research on what cameras they used & the tricks they employed to mix'n'match different quality footage. The one thing I do know about the iPhone footage, was that he used an App that simulated s16mm style footage. Must be lots of tricks out there... TheRenaissanceMan, User and Liam 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hi Bioskop.Inc. Good example. I was aware of the Chinese made B&W app for the iPhone on Sugarman. From what I can recall, the iPhone was used quite sparingly. Ok so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chris Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Cross the Ursa off your list if you need it in the next couple weeks, even if it does drop early (B&H lists it at Oct. 22 now). I own and really like the A7rII - its a stills and video powerhouse, but if I were buying a camera to shoot a doc and already had Canon glass, the C100 (mkI or mkII) would top my list. That's what the C100 was made for and it does the job really well - dual pixel AF, C-log and so on. Unless you want something smaller.I like the smaller form factor so for me - get a couple GH4's or a pair of A7s' (used prices are in the $1700 range). Sriracha the movie was shot mostly with a GH3 and the Panasonic 2.8 zooms (stabilized), it looked good to me, but I'm not hyper critical and its an entertaining story that was well done. The IQ from the GH4 with 4k downscaled to 1080 and V-log will be much better than the GH3 - but it will probably surpass what you've already shot as well. But so would the A7s and C100. Just my .02.Good luck. User 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hi Chris, great points all around. Thank you for your insight. Hats off to the Blackmagic folks, let's hope they really deliver with the Ursa mini, this this could really help us all when and if it arrives.I would probably go with the A7rii for its low profile and 4k, BUT I'll be working in a very HOT part of the world and need it to hold up. For sure the C100Mkii is really a solid choice for doc work but it also is big enough to draw a lot of attention on top of how much attention I already draw being a 'foreigner'. So a small cheap 4k package with decent built in tools, the GH4 seems like it could work. Panasonic would have roasted if they had put a 35mm sensor in this. I'm now researching audio options for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Here is a very good look at the C100/ C300 and GH4 all cut together by a pro in very real world conditions: https://vimeo.com/100642275. The GH4 really holds it's own considering the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chris Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 If size is a concern and you have Canon glass, the GH4 and the A7s are probably the best options since you have electronic adapters and speedboosters for both. You can get something like the A5100 as a B-cam for the A7s that will also serve as a backup, they use the same batteries and it'll take 24mp stills. I keep one in my bag at all times, usually with the 10-18 for great UWA shots and handheld cutaways. GH4's cost less than the A7s, you could easily get a 2nd one or a cheap GH3 as a backup. Lots of options. User 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I just did a 10 minute corporate thing with a gh4, 5d, and an EM5II. If you shoot clean and expose properly you can get em to match pretty close in the color grade, but you need to be patient at it. The GH4 looks like it has more resolution, because it does, but you can't really tell the difference in the final online delivery unless you're looking closely. I'll be working in a very HOT part of the world and need it to hold up. For sure the C100Mkii is really a solid choice for doc work but it also is big enough to draw a lot of attention on top of how much attention I already draw being a 'foreigner'. So a small cheap 4k package with decent built in tools, the GH4 seems like it could work. FWIW, I shot for a month last summer in Indonesia (hot!) with LUMIX and Olympus gear and it held up fine. I got tons of great video and looked very unassuming while doing so. I'd recommend the Panasonic cams. Cheap and really nice video IQ.Not sure how particular you are about having the GH4's 4k, but the EM5II's 5-axis stabilization might actually allow you to capture better shots on the fly. That built in stabilizer is something else.... Plus, the camera is weather sealed, which is nice to have; something else to consider. User 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 The GH4 looks like it has more resolution, because it does, but you can't really tell the difference in the final online delivery unless you're looking closely.- It seems to me that compressed 4k from these cheaper cameras is what the proper 1080 should have looked like from dslr cameras. Furthermore, I can imagine that having a 4k image allows one to soften it to their liking with filters etc and once it gets compressed further to the web it still holds up rather well resolution wise. Sitting a few meters back, for sure folks notice the DR over resolution, but it's still wonderful to have detail! Not sure how particular you are about having the GH4's 4k, but the EM5II's 5-axis stabilization might actually allow you to capture better shots on the fly. That built in stabilizer is something else.... Plus, the camera is weather sealed, which is nice to have; something else to consider. - Yes I've heard good things about the EM5 but my stabilized Canon glass has always served me well and the GH4 seems to have more going for it from what I've been hearing.My main concern with the GH4 is how good will the lowlight ability be with the Speedbooster? If I could get decent 'clean' material at ISO 1600 I think I could live with that. From what I've been hearing, it's a great camera in good light but struggles without it. Does anyone have any examples of the GH4 in low light?The other BIG concern is SOUND. I don't know if there have been any updates of improvements but I've heard that the camera's internal sound capabilities are terrible. Can you or anyone comment on this?If size is a concern and you have Canon glass, the GH4 and the A7s are probably the best options...- Agreed Chris. Thank you.Let's see what Sony drops tomorrow. In any case, it probably won't ship before my departure date. Thank you again for the input folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joema Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 ...Does anyone have experience with mixing 1080 and 4k footage in a doc film?....had been carefully considering the A7s, A7rii, C100Mkii and Black Magic Ursa Mini. I had been hoping that the Sony A7rii would be a great all-arounder for both 1080, 4k and stills but it seems there is 'issues' on all front. Plus it seems just too small and fiddly to me, and those lame batteries. Also by the time one adds all the accessories (ie. xlr audio unit, Metabones, cage, batteries, extra charger) to get it functional it starts to add up. However it is nice that it strips down so small....Anyway, last night I began looking at a camera that had previously never interested me at all, the GH4....Does the V-Log REALLY and TRUELY add 2 extra stops of DR? I would probably have gone with the C100Mkii but the image just seems soft after 4k.Yes we are shooting mixed 1080p/4k doc material now with the A7RII, GH4, D810 and 5D3. Unfortunately I don't have releases to post any samples. Before getting the A7RII and 28-135 f/4 cinema lens, I looked very closely at the C100MkII. That is a great camera and I love the built-in features (ND, XLR, etc). The C100 deploys very fast, which is important for field doc work. By contrast it takes 10 minutes to rig a DSLR with EVF, brackets, HDMI, cable protectors, etc. It's fragile in that state and every time we change sites we must decide to de-rig it, have someone hand hold it or risk balancing it on a car seat. However the C100 is essentially video-only and I wanted combined stills/video, plus we do lots of time lapse and that wears out a DSLR, whereas the A7RII has a non-mechanical silent shutter mode. We'd have used regular Canon L lenses on the C100, which means no smooth motorized zoom. We have all kinds of focus aids (sticks, knobs, Zacuto rigs, etc) but they can be a a hassle for field work. We won't distribute in 4k anytime soon, but shooting in 4k for 1080p distribution has advantages.- Allows looser framing and fine-tuning composition in post- In many cases 4k frame grabs (which are 8 megapixels) are usable as stills, which saves switching between still & video mode or using two cameras. We shot a project two weeks ago which the customer said was video-only, then afterward they wanted stills. We fortunately shot in 4k so the frame grabs were good enough for this purpose.I always use the battery grip on the A7RII, which (a) Makes it a lot easier to hold with a big lens on the camera, and (b) essentially eliminates battery life issues. There is functionally no difference between shooting video with that vs the 5D3. In both cases you have to change batteries at least once or twice per day depending on shooting duty cycle.Last weekend I shot mixed 4k video & stills all day in direct sunlight at 95F ambient temps, and the A7RII did fine. OTOH it will definitely overheat and shut down if shooting non-stop, long-duration 4k, but that is not a common usage for us. We would never shoot a classroom lecture at 4k, and a 30 min. interview is very rare (for us); not sure we'd shoot that in 4k either.For me the biggest negative on the A7RII is the fiddly, consumerish user interface. I am frequently changing it in/out of Super 35 mode, and it is maddening this requires diving into the menus every time. Formatting a memory card takes a long time, and invoking that also requires diving into the menus.The GH4 is a great camera with much better UI and lots of aftermarket support. But we shoot mostly full frame so haven't fleshed out the GH4 config. In Super 35 mode the A7RII is very good at low light video (better even than the 5D3). We do lots of existing light shooting so that's important.The Sony 28-135 lens is a good match for A7RII video work. The smooth motorized zoom and ability to pop between manual and auto-focus by sliding the focus ring forward/backward are very handy. The lens and camera are expensive but still cheaper than a C100MkII body, plus you get 4k and 42 megapixel stills. That said if it were not for that lens I'd have probably gotten the C100.We are still evaluating various post-processing and color profile options for matching 4k from the A7RII with the other cameras. User 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 - Yes I've heard good things about the EM5 but my stabilized Canon glass has always served me well and the GH4 seems to have more going for it from what I've been hearing.I'd recommend you should go give Oly a hands on try. The stabilizer on the EM5II is at a whole 'nother level. Crazy good/cool. At the very least it can be a useful Bcam for specific situations. Driving in a car, sailing on a boat, scooting along in a tuk-tuk. If you want or need it, it's a very very wonderful tool to have in one's arsenal. Or, grab a cheap EM10!Anyway, all these cameras listed here are pretty cool; can't go wrong, really. User 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronChicago Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 If you have the opportunity to use a C100 MkII I would do it. Hands down a documentary superhero camera. I intercut the footage with 4K alot, and the resolution holds up well. User 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Wonderful real world and insightful post Joema! Hats off to Fuzzy and Aaron for your insightful notes as well.In light of the current FS5 and A7sII announcements today, I think the playing field as been changed yet again.For sure it'll take some time to see how this new tech translates and what it's actually capable of, exciting times ahead!Looking forward to everyones thoughts in the days to come, and thank you again for sharing your insights and experiences as you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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