Is Red about to release an affordable camera?

[jax_rox]

Another camera nobody has mentioned is the AJA Cion. What happened there? 

The CION has no drawcard. It's much more expensive than offerings from BM, and the only real difference is the form factor. The image is okay, but not 'blow me out of the water, especially at this price' good. The Blackmagic image is not 'blow me out of the water' good either, but at the price, it's pretty damn good.

 

[Oliver Daniel]

The CION has no drawcard. It's much more expensive than offerings from BM, and the only real difference is the form factor. The image is okay, but not 'blow me out of the water, especially at this price' good. The Blackmagic image is not 'blow me out of the water' good either, but at the price, it's pretty damn good.

 

The AJA Cion looks like a bit of a pain really. It's not going to get any better with the BM Ursa Mini knocking on our doors soon. Big flop? 

As for this Red Raven... I'm hoping it will AT LEAST come with a bomb disposal kit, or some kind of force field that comes out the sensor and protects us from killer drones at 120fps!

[IronFilm]

Another camera nobody has mentioned is the AJA Cion. What happened there? 

Poor sensor choice. Poor lens mount choice for their market positioning (well, it could be swapped, but that wasn't communicated well to potential customers). Late to market (a year or two earlier and it would've made a way bigger splash). Too high a price. Proprietary media. 

 

That is what happened!!

[KarimNassar]

news: body is metal, there is a microphone built in behind the ribs, and it is lighter

and we already know it shoots 4k at 120fps. 6 days to go.

 

[DBounce]

To answer the original question... NO, Red is not about to release an "affordable" camera... That is unless you consider $15k plus accessories affordable.

[Jimmy]

That Jarred guy said last night that it does not shoot 5K or higher.

Smaller sensor perhaps? m43?

[wolf33d]

Does 4K@120fps means it will for sure shoot 2K @240fps ?

[Oliver Daniel]

That Jarred guy said last night that it does not shoot 5K or higher.

Smaller sensor perhaps? m43?

Considering using Raven as a B-cam to Epic, I'd say they'd go with s35. 

[BrorSvensson]

Does 4K@120fps means it will for sure shoot 2K @240fps ?

Absolutely not, only time will show that.

[KarimNassar]

big news today:

- form factor is weapon sized, smaller than scarlet dragon

- lightest of all their cameras ever made

- redcode at 5:1 compression

- dragon sensor "a bit shy of Academy 35mm and APS-C. All your APS-C / S35 lenses should cover."

- canon ef mount with electronic control

- sub 10k price

now is sub 10k for the body with ssd module included, I would assume so but we will find out friday.

 

 

[Jonesy Jones]

$5950 for just he brain. 

My impression is that sub 10k is for a shooting package, though mathematically I'm not sure if that's adding up. 

[Jimmy]

My biggest issue is the quality of the 4K it outputs. The OLFP on the MX made the footage incredibly soft... even 5K downscaled, with alot of sharpening, was still found lacking.

I have not used Dragon or the new OLFPs though, so maybe something has changed. Low light is also a concern.

Generally though, seems like a very exciting camera.

[neosushi]

Can't wait to see how it compares to the URSA mini in terms of size / weight / IQ.

[KarimNassar]

Can't wait to see how it compares to the URSA mini in terms of size / weight / IQ.

ursa mini weight is 5lbs, red weapon is 3.3lbs and it is said that the Raven will be lighter

weapons bare body is much smaller than the ursa mini bare body, much more compact and better suited for movi type stabilizers.

image quality wise I would be surprised if the new 4.6k ursa sensor performs better than the red dragon sensor but wait and see.

but the price of a working red raven package will likely be at least twice that of a ursa mini 4.6k though.

[Jimmy]

Both companies are a bit "excitable" when it comes to announcing paper specs. In terms of IQ, my guess is:

BM will have more detail (4.6K and no OLPF).

Both will have similar DR (13-14 stops usable).

RED will have better aliasing/moire and rolling shutter.

Low light will be fairly low on both, unless RED has nailed it with their latest OLPF

Both have good colour.

RED has better highlight protection (though again, the new OLPF could change that).

[neosushi]

ursa mini weight is 5lbs, red weapon is 3.3lbs and it is said that the Raven will be lighter

weapons bare body is much smaller than the ursa mini bare body, much more compact and better suited for movi type stabilizers.

image quality wise I would be surprised if the new 4.6k ursa sensor performs better than the red dragon sensor but wait and see.

but the price of a working red raven package will likely be at least twice that of a ursa mini 4.6k though.

Thanks for your comment : ) 

I agree with all you said.

I would just like to mention that maybe the price gap might not be as important as anticipated: For the URSA mini, you still need to add:

URSA mini 4.6k EF: 5000$
Viewfinder: 1500$
VLock battery plate: 100$
Shoulder kit: 400$
Cfast (these are going to be expensive): 400$ (128 gb)
Total: around 7.5k

Now I'm no expert for Red cameras, so I'm not sure how much - and what - you are going to have to add to get a comparable "shoulder + viewfinder" rig. Would be happy to have anyone's opinion on that : )

[sudopera]

RED will have better aliasing/moire and rolling shutter.

URSA Mini 4.6K can switch between rolling and global shutter(but lose some DR) so really it should have an advantage in that department.

[Oliver Daniel]

Thanks for your comment : ) 

I agree with all you said.

I would just like to mention that maybe the price gap might not be as important as anticipated: For the URSA mini, you still need to add:

URSA mini 4.6k EF: 5000$
Viewfinder: 1500$
VLock battery plate: 100$
Shoulder kit: 400$
Cfast (these are going to be expensive): 400$ (128 gb)
Total: around 7.5k

Now I'm no expert for Red cameras, so I'm not sure how much - and what - you are going to have to add to get a comparable "shoulder + viewfinder" rig. Would be happy to have anyone's opinion on that : )

I've got the URSA 4.6k on pre-order, but I have to admit I'm curious about this RED Raven. 

While the cost is a factor with all the accessories, you have to factor in what this means for your business success:

1. You can advertise you "Shoot on RED" (not that it really matters, but sometimes it does work and puts the icing on the cake for a pitch).

2. The 4k 120fps is a future proof spec if you shoot a lot of slow motion (I do). No need to upgrade once 4k is well and truly kicking the jams!

3. REDCode - very easy to work with (in my experience). 

The URSA Mini also has XLR's and Built-In LCD. Big advantage. 

The URSA Mini will be more cost-effective as a purchase, and will be preferable to those who like Arri Alexa style images. The new 4.6k is like an Arri Alexa nephew, from what I've seen with the bit of footage on BM's website. But you have to consider whether the RED Raven (assuming the package is sub 10k) might be better value for business, because clients who don't know much but have heard that "RED shoots Hollywood movies" find you an attractive prospect if you sell the RED as part of the deal. 

Ultimately, it comes down to whether the toolset within the camera can help utilise better creativity and better quality results. Hard to say when both cameras have not been released are used by anyone. But this is stiff competition now for Blackmagic. I'll be keeping my pre-order open while reviewing the RED Raven in the coming weeks. 

[Jonesy Jones]

 

I've got the URSA 4.6k on pre-order, but I have to admit I'm curious about this RED Raven. 

While the cost is a factor with all the accessories, you have to factor in what this means for your business success:

1. You can advertise you "Shoot on RED" (not that it really matters, but sometimes it does work and puts the icing on the cake for a pitch).

2. The 4k 120fps is a future proof spec if you shoot a lot of slow motion (I do). No need to upgrade once 4k is well and truly kicking the jams!

3. REDCode - very easy to work with (in my experience). 

The URSA Mini also has XLR's and Built-In LCD. Big advantage. 

The URSA Mini will be more cost-effective as a purchase, and will be preferable to those who like Arri Alexa style images. The new 4.6k is like an Arri Alexa nephew, from what I've seen with the bit of footage on BM's website. But you have to consider whether the RED Raven (assuming the package is sub 10k) might be better value for business, because clients who don't know much but have heard that "RED shoots Hollywood movies" find you an attractive prospect if you sell the RED as part of the deal. 

Ultimately, it comes down to whether the toolset within the camera can help utilise better creativity and better quality results. Hard to say when both cameras have not been released are used by anyone. But this is stiff competition now for Blackmagic. I'll be keeping my pre-order open while reviewing the RED Raven in the coming weeks. 

I created a comparison table for these two cameras with the info we have at this point, and some we can assume, and posted it on another thread. For someone like you who shoots music videos nearly entirely, the Raven might make sense for all the reasons you mentioned, including the Red logo on it. However, with considerably more filmmakers with a Red in their hands, will this have as much value? Have you name dropped Blackmagic on a client? I have and got a 'wow'. I don't think they had a clue but it sounds impressive. Just as impressive as dropping Alexa would have been. I also don't know that Red's 4K is very future proof. Hopefully there is a 4.5K firmware update or something. Probably not possible but here's to hoping. Prores, or lack thereof, might be important for some, will be for me. Let's see what happens.

[neosushi]

Is there really such a big difference between 4k vs 4.5k ?