When is "Good Enough" Enough? The rise of mirrorless and the jump to 4K.

[Lintelfilm]

I'm on the mailing list of a site called Desktop Documentaries and recently received an email recommending a documentary kit for $1000. Uh oh! It included a Canon T5i and an H4n as THE basics for a cheap large sensor video camera package.

So with as much tact as I could muster, I replied and informed the site owner I didn't think it was very fair to be recommending this particular set of items in 2015 to people who don't know any better (the site is mainly aimed at filmmaking begginers). I expected to receive either a dismissive reply or at best be ignored.

What actually happened was I got a reply from Faith (the site owner) offering to pay me to write a better-informed article! So I did.

Here's my article, in which I discuss the evolution of hybrid cameras (from the 5D MkII to the latest 4K models) and recommend my own gear package for $1000 (including all the very basics you'd need to shoot a documentary): http://www.desktop-documentaries.com/cinematic-documentary-gear-package.html

I'd love to hear what you guys think of the list I put together (and my article in general!) and what you might have done differently ...

PS: You can also see a few films I shot a while back with the camera in question here: http://lintelfilm.uk/blog/affordable-cinematic-video

 

[Cinegain]

'I wish I could just stop using the forum but I know I'll get drawn back in' ~ you 9 months ago. I guess you're reborn?

Do you feel differently about the 'I think 70% of the users here are fucking stupid'? Or is that the reason you're plugging this site aimed at filmmaking begginers (and you want to be kept on as a paid writer and need to gather some readers)?

You did say 'I'm not going to change my tune'. But hey, time changes people and I guess everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

OT: Yeah, there are many different set-ups one could opt for that are better than a T5i with H4n. The one you suggested could work for someone. Depends on what they need.

[jagnje]

I prefer a t3i to a G6.

[ricardo_sousa11]

I 5D Mark 2 can be bought (second hand) for about 700€, or an A7 for the same price or cheaper. Theres also the RX10 M2 which is a little over the 1k mark, but far superior. Your recommendation is indeed good, but with a little more digging, one can find better deals.

[Mattias Burling]

Its all very regional as well. Here a G6 is €250 and 5dii €550-600.

But over all I thought the recomendations where good.

[Inazuma]

Welcome back.  It took longer than I thought

A G6 is really old hat. I'd have recommended the a6000 for that price. Much better DR/noise. No mic input but you can actually get a decent hot shoe accessory for that

[ricardo_sousa11]

Its all very regional as well. Here a G6 is €250 and 5dii €550-600.

But over all I thought the recomendations where good.

Where do you live ? I'd snag a 5DM2 for 550€.

[IronFilm]

A good article! But with such a lowly budget I'd have happily recommended a secondhand GH1 instead, so lenses, lighting, audio, and other support gear could've been adequately covered.

 

I wrote a kinda similar article a few months back:

http://ironfilm.co.nz/a-priced-out-gear-kit-for-a-newbie-to-filmmaking-using-the-panasonic-gh2/

[Lintelfilm]

'I wish I could just stop using the forum but I know I'll get drawn back in' ~ you 9 months ago. I guess you're reborn?

Do you feel differently about the 'I think 70% of the users here are fucking stupid'? Or is that the reason you're plugging this site aimed at filmmaking begginers (and you want to be kept on as a paid writer and need to gather some readers)?

You did say 'I'm not going to change my tune'. But hey, time changes people and I guess everyone deserves a 2nd chance.

OT: Yeah, there are many different set-ups one could opt for that are better than a T5i with H4n. The one you suggested could work for someone. Depends on what they need.

I'm not here to win any fans if that's what you're asking. If you must know I was drawn back in by the V-Log saga. No ulterior motives other than wanting "peer review" on my article. In fact now I think about it the main reason I posted this was because I reference EOSHD and Mattias in the article.

Thanks for granting me a second chance and giving your blessing to my recommendations though. Whoever you are.

 

 

I 5D Mark 2 can be bought (second hand) for about 700€, or an A7 for the same price or cheaper. Theres also the RX10 M2 which is a little over the 1k mark, but far superior. Your recommendation is indeed good, but with a little more digging, one can find better deals.

Yes the 5D MkII is an interesting alternative but wouldn't make sense in the context of the article. It and the A7 have pretty bad moire don't they? Remember this is a whole, cinematic kit you need to put together - you'd need to add at least a good mic to the RX10 MkII and I don't know if it has a headphone jack (if it doesn't you need to add an audio recorder too). Also the RX10 has a pretty small sensor - the article is about large sensor cameras.

[Lintelfilm]

Its all very regional as well. Here a G6 is €250 and 5dii €550-600.

But over all I thought the recomendations where good.

Thanks Mattias. I'm a total groupie of your youtube channel by the way.

Did you see I linked to your BMPCC/Zoom H1 video in the article? Without that setup you're restricted to cameras with headphone jacks for doc work (GH3 with RodeLink or VMP was my other idea).

[Lintelfilm]

Welcome back.  It took longer than I thought

A G6 is really old hat. I'd have recommended the a6000 for that price. Much better DR/noise. No mic input but you can actually get a decent hot shoe accessory for that

Yeah that was the other one I had in mind but the lack of mic jack just made it a no go. Didn't know about the hotshoe but I'm not keen on proprietary connections at all. That's why I love Blackmagic and the MFT mount. 

But the G6 being "old hat" is kind of the point of the article (and this post). Does that matter? I'll happily watch Upstream Colour every year for the next ten years and I'm sure I won't once think "this film is a bit dated now because it was shot on a GH2." Same goes for Blue is the Warmest Colour and the C300. And it's not because I don't pay attention to cinematography and image quality. I just think that although I know the limitations of those cameras, I still really love the image they can produce ...

[Damphousse]

A fanciful retelling of history.  No mention of sensor crop vs full frame and zero mention of 5D MK III raw.  Most people would take a 5D MK III raw over a GH2 or GH6 any day of the week.  And I love how the 1DC doesn't exist.

Your agenda driven article does a wonderful job of Canon bashing and misinforming.  You are stuck in a time warp.  I liked how you cherry picked a camera shootout that didn't have a 5D MK III raw nor 1DC camera and then officially declared Canon dead.  The 7D included in that shootout was acknowledged as not necessarily putting Canon's best food forward...

Many asked why the 7D was chosen, and not the 5D or a camera that could be hacked like the T2i or 60d. Here is an answer from our comment section from Scott Lynch of Zacuto:

The choice of 7D was a bit last minute. Originally we were trying to get a 1DX which at the last minute was unavailable as it was still unreleased and we were unable to get one in from Japan in time for the test. Michael Negrin, ASC was lined up to shoot the Canon DSLR and was comfortable using the 7D, as that was what he had worked with before. Because these things are so scrutinized by the public, at the time we did not give him a new camera with “hacked” firmware that he had no experience with. So at that point it became a practical decision as to why we used the 7D, it was what he was comfortable with and it had a super35mm sensor. I think though, having the 7D in there gives you a good reference as to where the technology was just over a year ago and it can be used as a sort of benchmark.

http://nofilmschool.com/2012/06/thoughts-after-seeing-zacuto-2012-shootout 

It is simply irresponsible to base your article on a half decade old misrepresented source... in the tech world of all things.  I think the original suggestion of the T5i was ludicrous and spread misinformation but I found the article trying to correct the mistake almost as bad.  For heaven's sake the GH2 is not even the stand out piece of information in that video.  The fact you can get the formerly $18,000 Sony F3 that was in that video for $1,800 is what is worth talking about.  Also you failed to mentioned the shoot out was not shot with the same parameters for each camera.  Read Andrew's summary for more information.

And lastly linking to a G6 kit for $539 dollars?!  Let me guess you get a cut of the sales.  Am I right?  Those things can be bought used body only for $200.  I've seen kits will lens go for $350.  I think that is a far more responsible suggestion since it will only be a starter camera.  Buying a new G6 for $539 in 2015 is ludicrous.

[Lintelfilm]

A fanciful retelling of history.  No mention of sensor crop vs full frame and zero mention of 5D MK III raw.  Most people would take a 5D MK III raw over a GH2 or GH6 any day of the week.  And I love how the 1DC doesn't exist.

Your agenda driven article does a wonderful job of Canon bashing and misinforming.  You are stuck in a time warp.  I liked how you cherry picked a camera shootout that didn't have a 5D MK III raw nor 1DC camera and then officially declared Canon dead.  The 7D included in that shootout was acknowledged as not necessarily putting Canon's best food forward...

http://nofilmschool.com/2012/06/thoughts-after-seeing-zacuto-2012-shootout 

It is simply irresponsible to base your article on a half decade old misrepresented source... in the tech world of all things.  I think the original suggestion of the T5i was ludicrous and spread misinformation but I found the article trying to correct the mistake almost as bad.  For heaven's sake the GH2 is not even the stand out piece of information in that video.  The fact you can get the formerly $18,000 Sony F3 that was in that video for $1,800 is what is worth talking about.  Also you failed to mentioned the shoot out was not shot with the same parameters for each camera.  Read Andrew's summary for more information.

And lastly linking to a G6 kit for $539 dollars?!  Let me guess you get a cut of the sales.  Am I right?  Those things can be bought used body only for $200.  I've seen kits will lens go for $350.  I think that is a far more responsible suggestion since it will only be a starter camera.  Buying a new G6 for $539 in 2015 is ludicrous.

I remember exactly why I left this forum now.

Are you serious? Are you trolling? Did you even read my OP? You've constructed a fantasy brief for my article.

I was asked to recommend a full documentary camera kit for $1000 for the site's audience (beginners). NONE of your unnecessarily aggressive post fits that. ML RAW isn't exactly documentary friendly is it? And it definitely isn't for beginners. The 5D MkIII with all the extras to make it work for video is waaay over $1000 even now. The 1DC? You have to be kidding me. 

I didn't base my article on that source and I was well aware of the shootout's limitations. In fact I even allude to this and use Upstream Colour as another example.

I didn't create any of the Amazon links - that was the site owner and she is the one who will benefit. She didn't want second hand items. I would have done that if it was on my site but reality is some people are not keen on buying used.

Where did I declare Canon dead? I said their DSLR line has made very few advancements since the 5DII which is true. I took the 1DC out of the equation because it's stupidly expensive and has all the same issues of their stills cameras. For the record, I'm a huge fan of their C100/C300 line, in spite of myself.

Get a grip.

 

[midloch]

I do not think that G6 is old hat. It is still very capable camera. This adventure movie from Venezuela Ayuan Tepui was all shot on G6 (except of some GoPro shots):

[Lintelfilm]

A good article! But with such a lowly budget I'd have happily recommended a secondhand GH1 instead, so lenses, lighting, audio, and other support gear could've been adequately covered.

I wrote a kinda similar article a few months back:

http://ironfilm.co.nz/a-priced-out-gear-kit-for-a-newbie-to-filmmaking-using-the-panasonic-gh2/

Interesting that you came up with such a similar kit. Some good ideas there too - the 17-50 Tamron is an amazing bargain (Mark 1 version only though!). I think that with a Chinese Speedbooster is a killer low budget set up.

[Damphousse]

I remember exactly why I left this forum now.

Are you serious? Are you trolling? Did you even read my OP? You've constructed a fantasy brief for my article.

I was asked to recommend a full documentary camera kit for $1000 for the site's audience (beginners). NONE of your unnecessarily aggressive post fits that.

A $200 G6 doesn't fit that?!  I am pretty sure it fits it more than the GH4, NX1, A7S, and $540 dollar G6 kit your article praised.

With the release in 2014 of 4K-shooting “mirrorless” cameras such as the Panasonic GH4, Sony A7S and Samsung NX1, Canon finally lost its footing as the go-to manufacturer of video-shooting hybrid cameras.

That's one of the main lines I had a real problem with.  You are thoroughly misrepresenting the camera landscape.

But I get it.  One set of rules for you.  Another set of rules for everyone else.

[Lintelfilm]

I do not think that G6 is old hat. It is still very capable camera. This adventure movie from Venezuela Ayuan Tepui was all shot on G6 (except of some GoPro shots):

Wow this is amazing. You shot this? This is exactly the kind of thing I imagine it being used for. Wish I spoke Spanish

Do you mind if I post this in the comments of the article?

[midloch]

Yes this is my work :-) all shot on G6 and graded in Sony Vegas Pro 12.

Now I am adding english subtitles to send it on foregin outdoor film festivals. When it is finished I will upload it on Vimeo again.

Comments welcome! :-)

btw: it is czech language ;-) it is hard to understand.

 

[Inazuma]

Oh boy. A few hours in and you're already involved in a ruckus

[Lintelfilm]

 

A $200 G6 doesn't fit that?!  I am pretty sure it fits it more than the GH4, NX1, A7S, and $540 dollar G6 kit your article praised.

That's one of the main lines I had a real problem with.  You are thoroughly misrepresenting the camera landscape.

But I get it.  One set of rules for you.  Another set of rules for everyone else.

Again you failed to read what I said. I said she didn't want used equipment listed.

I talked about the GH4, NX1 etc. I don't remember praising them particularly. In fact I said 4K is unnecessary. I don't think it's misrepresentative to say those cameras broke Canon's near-monopolising of hybrid video though. They did. Outside of a few forums like this Canons are the go-to cameras for cheap large sensor video. How do you see the current camera landscape?

And enough with the crap about rules. I came here asking for your opinion. I'm not looking for validation. I know the package I put together is good. I just thought I might get some sensible suggestions of other packages that fit the brief from intelligent, mature people.

btw: it is czech language ;-) it is hard to understand.

 

How embarrassing. As english is my native language I can (unfortuneately) sail through life completely ignorant that other languages even exist  

I just assumed it was Spanish because of the Venezuela thing ...

Look forward to seeing the subtitled version though. If you send me a link when it's done I'll try to include it in my next article on Desktop Docs: (matt at lintelfilm dot uk)