URSA Mini vs Raven (Updated with Raven 4.5K)

[Emanuel]

http://eriknaso.com/2015/09/22/how-does-the-new-red-raven-stack-up-to-other-4k-cameras-a-price-comparison/

LOL Posted practically at same time... (new edit there now)

Here is other info essentially as digest from reduser:

[Flynn]

Do all the other Reds cater to anamorphic shooters? Good bet this one will as well?

[Emanuel]

http://eriknaso.com/2015/09/22/how-does-the-new-red-raven-stack-up-to-other-4k-cameras-a-price-comparison/

The difference can be another one depending on our setup choices, as for instance where 500gr can make a whole difference:

http://www.red.com/store/products/redvolt-xl

http://www.red.com/store/products/redvolt

 

On the leftover, this is the philosophy:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?67366-Is-it-possible-to-use-Scarlet-EPIC-without-any-Red-LCD-or-EVF

 

Do all the other Reds cater to anamorphic shooters? Good bet this one will as well?

Yes, no reason on contrary.

:-)

[richg101]

Fixed EF mount is a disastrous choice.  Infact the lack of m4/3 mount option from RED and BM on their Ursa is a mystery as well.  When you give users the ability to stick a SB ultra or SB XL on the camera you open up vast cost effective optical options.  A m4/3 to PL / oct19, oct19, etc etc adaptor would also allow use of cheap LOMO s35mm primes.

 

Exactly the same mistake BM made with the first cinema camera EF version.  Everyone wanted m4/3!   

[Emanuel]

Fixed EF mount is a disastrous choice.  Infact the lack of m4/3 mount option from RED and BM on their Ursa is a mystery as well.  When you give users the ability to stick a SB ultra or SB XL on the camera you open up vast cost effective optical options.  A m4/3 to PL / oct19, oct19, etc etc adaptor would also allow use of cheap LOMO s35mm primes.

 

Exactly the same mistake BM made with the first cinema camera EF version.  Everyone wanted m4/3!   

Indeed. Fixed mount only serves their high-end. In the case of Blackmagic, there's also the option PL or B4 glass along your EF lenses for Ursa.

Or try your luck with:

https://www.fotodioxpro.com/arri-pl-lens-mount-to-canon-eos-camera-mount-fotodiox-pro-lens-mount-adapter.html

 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

If this is the Dragon sensor, don't expect much out of it in low light. Most DPs don't rate it higher than ASA 320 with the Skin Tone OLPF (the one that doesn't make human beings look like horrifying zombie people). And if you're fine with that level of low-light performance, I don't see why you'd go with the RED over a $2999 Ursa Mini 4K, which has a much lower system cost, larger sensor, and gives you both ProRes and compressed RAW. 

That's not even getting into the 4.6K, which, according to OneRiverMedia, can easily be pushed to ASA 3200 without issue, has higher resolution, delivers about the same usable dynamic range (except better balanced between shadows and highlights), and has an actual S35 sensor. 

Honest question: What's the appeal? In the current marketplace, where is the Raven's niche? I don't see our crowd going for it. Most of us will stick with DSLRs, mirrorless, and the lower-end BM cams. Higher-end owner/operators would probably stick with the Ursa, Ursa Mini, Epic, F3, F35, etc. I guess it could work as a B-Cam for Epic shoots, but you may as well just rent another Epic. 

I don't get it. But hey, would love to hear other opinions. 

[Hene1]

Honest question: What's the appeal?

Sad answer: It's RED.

[Oliver Daniel]

Fixed EF mount is a disastrous choice.  Infact the lack of m4/3 mount option from RED and BM on their Ursa is a mystery as well.  When you give users the ability to stick a SB ultra or SB XL on the camera you open up vast cost effective optical options.  A m4/3 to PL / oct19, oct19, etc etc adaptor would also allow use of cheap LOMO s35mm primes.

 

Exactly the same mistake BM made with the first cinema camera EF version.  Everyone wanted m4/3!   

I agree. 

This camera would be much better with an MFT mount - the original EF mount BMCC was a nightmare for this reason. (crop factor with EF lenses). 

 

If this is the Dragon sensor, don't expect much out of it in low light. Most DPs don't rate it higher than ASA 320 with the Skin Tone OLPF (the one that doesn't make human beings look like horrifying zombie people). And if you're fine with that level of low-light performance, I don't see why you'd go with the RED over a $2999 Ursa Mini 4K, which has a much lower system cost, larger sensor, and gives you both ProRes and compressed RAW. 

That's not even getting into the 4.6K, which, according to OneRiverMedia, can easily be pushed to ASA 3200 without issue, has higher resolution, delivers about the same usable dynamic range (except better balanced between shadows and highlights), and has an actual S35 sensor. 

Honest question: What's the appeal? In the current marketplace, where is the Raven's niche? I don't see our crowd going for it. Most of us will stick with DSLRs, mirrorless, and the lower-end BM cams. Higher-end owner/operators would probably stick with the Ursa, Ursa Mini, Epic, F3, F35, etc. I guess it could work as a B-Cam for Epic shoots, but you may as well just rent another Epic. 

I don't get it. But hey, would love to hear other opinions. 

 

We'll find out more on Friday.

The big feature is the 4k 120fps, but I still think the URSA Mini 4.6k is very hard to beat because of the value you get with the package. Once you add ergonomics, the Raven will likely cost double, if not more. 

I'm very curious though because I'm in the market for a major new camera to film a combination of commercial and music video stuff. 

[Jimmy]

I do think anyone who goes from, say, Sony to RED will be very surprised at the lack of low light and resolution detail (at 4K). The latest "standard" OLPF might help, but it will not work miracles (like the promised 20,000 ISO).

As I have maintained, it is looking exciting, but I would certainly hold back on the buy now button until you have at least rented a Dragon and seen the beauty AND limitations of the footage.

[Oliver Daniel]

I do think anyone who goes from, say, Sony to RED will be very surprised at the lack of low light and resolution detail (at 4K). The latest "standard" OLPF might help, but it will not work miracles (like the promised 20,000 ISO).

As I have maintained, it is looking exciting, but I would certainly hold back on the buy now button until you have at least rented a Dragon and seen the beauty AND limitations of the footage.

I've handled RED footage (MX, Dragon) a few times now and I light everything - I'll go past 800ISO on some cameras if I'm desperate, but hardly ever.

I've been very pleased with the footage, I just found the Epic to be a time consuming camera on set. (this was mainly due to lack of experience with the Epic and not enough crew members, but I can't afford more crew!). 

Generally handling the FS7 and F55 on set has been fine, besides the menus. Had great success with Blackmagic as they have a pretty simple system. 

Out of all the cameras I've used, I like the Blackmagic image the most, but i love the deep meaty texture you get from RED, and also REDCode is awesome. We'll see on Friday eh? 

[Jimmy]

Yea, your line of work seems perfectly suited for a RED.

Interested to see which choice you make as I have a feeling i'll be weighing up the same options (still sorely tempted with the C300II though).

[sudopera]

Jonesy, URSA Mini sensor is actually 1,4 crop (25,34x14,25), so true Super35 size

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Red Raven? where the hell did that come from =D Nice name though. A red coloured raven, sexy.

So just read about it, 

-(1.87) 1.9x crop sensor is not a light issue, it's gh2/gh3 size. And making the issue even worse, an fixed EF-mount, making us use largeer format glass, and dealing with the crop factors, most significantly on the wide end. A 1.5x C100/300 is an aesthetic difference from 1.9x. That's my first nagging,

-then, the price. Red is great in putting low price tags on brains and high tags on the essential accessories, practically selling you the ''rest of the camera'', the other half of it actually (12000$ basic shooting kit vs 5000-ish$ brain), so no don't consider this a 5000$ competitor (C100II, FS5, Ursa Mini, Cion, LS300 that can be shot out the box for 5K), this is an fs7, f5, c300 bracket competitor that hovers around the 11-15K depending on your kit. Treat it accordingly. This was my second nag, 

-Then some unknown but practically sure bits: the lowlight performance is never a Red strength, the C100II/FS7 will most probably have 3-4 stops advantage while as all reds this is a studio-ish/feature type to be only shot at 400-ish native. Even the top end dragon is mostly shot at 320. We'll see though (the ursa mini and Cion share this issue)

-then the lack of NDs, this is a big one.

-then there's the body, which many like for some reason, but it's a box with a separately sold LCD on top, a completely different experience (and money for rigs) to work handheld comfortably or shoulder mounted. 

Hold this:

 

VS this:

OR this 

This is definitely a huge point that needs to be factored-in, either you like these or that design for your hands/work, a completely different experience. 

Bear in mind this post is specifically beating down the raven by pointing out its downsides vs rivals, just as a counter balance, If I would list potential upsides they're be many. 

 

 

 

[graphicnatured]

 

-then, the price. Red is great in putting low price tags on brains and high tags on the essential accessories, practically selling you the ''rest of the camera'', the other half of it actually (12000$ basic shooting kit vs 5000-ish$ brain)

This is why I don't even research Red cameras. They bait you with what you may be able to afford, then you see the reality upon further inspection.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

5K for a RED is a headline, 11-15K RED is meh, good.

[AaronChicago]

I've only used RED once, and it was a bundle, so I'm curious: can you use third party monitors with RED, by themselves? I know they use touchscreeen functions but wondering if you have to use their proprietary hardware.

[Oliver Daniel]

Red Raven? where the hell did that come from =D Nice name though. A red coloured raven, sexy.

So just read about it, 

-(1.87) 1.9x crop sensor is not a light issue, it's gh2/gh3 size. And making the issue even worse, an fixed EF-mount, making us use largeer format glass, and dealing with the crop factors, most significantly on the wide end. A 1.5x C100/300 is an aesthetic difference from 1.9x. That's my first nagging,

-then, the price. Red is great in putting low price tags on brains and high tags on the essential accessories, practically selling you the ''rest of the camera'', the other half of it actually (12000$ basic shooting kit vs 5000-ish$ brain), so no don't consider this a 5000$ competitor (C100II, FS5, Ursa Mini, Cion, LS300 that can be shot out the box for 5K), this is an fs7, f5, c300 bracket competitor that hovers around the 11-15K depending on your kit. Treat it accordingly. This was my second nag, 

-Then some unknown but practically sure bits: the lowlight performance is never a Red strength, the C100II/FS7 will most probably have 3-4 stops advantage while as all reds this is a studio-ish/feature type to be only shot at 400-ish native. Even the top end dragon is mostly shot at 320. We'll see though (the ursa mini and Cion share this issue)

-then the lack of NDs, this is a big one.

-then there's the body, which many like for some reason, but it's a box with a separately sold LCD on top, a completely different experience (and money for rigs) to work handheld comfortably or shoulder mounted. 

Hold this:

 

VS this:

OR this 

This is definitely a huge point that needs to be factored-in, either you like these or that design for your hands/work, a completely different experience. 

Bear in mind this post is specifically beating down the raven by pointing out its downsides vs rivals, just as a counter balance, If I would list potential upsides they're be many. 

 

 

 

Ebrahim, you're really good at analysing camera equipment. I would enjoy reading your take on the "upsides".

 

I've only used RED once, and it was a bundle, so I'm curious: can you use third party monitors with RED, by themselves? I know they use touchscreeen functions but wondering if you have to use their proprietary hardware.

When I've used RED, it's always been proprietary accessories, but i was given the option of using third party stuff with some kind of add-on module for HDMI/SDI.   

[maxmizer]

Red's new $5,950 brain/camera body.

Tonight I saw a UFO pass in the sky, and the little green men who were inside greeted me!

 

[Emanuel]

I've only used RED once, and it was a bundle, so I'm curious: can you use third party monitors with RED, by themselves? I know they use touchscreeen functions but wondering if you have to use their proprietary hardware.

I think you'll find up there the answer you're looking for:

http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/9467-ursa-mini-vs-raven/?do=findComment&comment=107970

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

 

Ebrahim, you're really good at analysing camera equipment. I would enjoy reading your take on the "upsides".

Well, first it's a RED. 

-Don't take this lightly, a RED has a different value to clients than a Sony or Canon, the Raven will surely get/impress more clients than the FS7/C100/300/URSA. Especially as it will have a very similar body to the weapon. This is a good reason alone to get the Raven, it's a Red. 

-Then there's the image, we can compare specs all day but if the raven has a better image, it's what matters to many shooters. The raven, will most likely at low ISO, when exposed right, in music video/feature/studio environment, red raw files do produce so thick images with great colour science, in these situations the Raven will most likely make a beefier image vs the XAVC or AVCHD from the FS7/C100, it's raw, higher bit rate, no chroma subsampling, that you can take later and transform to any codec you want then erase the masters. 

-There's the high frame rates, Red has great HFR, certainly better than the binned-aliased way of the Sonys and the soft non-aliased way of Canons, this Raven for example is the first camera on the bracket to shoot 120p 4K, I do expect great 120p HD options at least better than the rivals here. 

-Red has the only RAW format I've ever worked with that I was glad using, Redcode files are simply great in terms or compression:quality ratio. Nowhere near Cinema DNG and better quality than 10bit/422 codecs certainly without much penalty, and the media while expensive we have to admit it sturdier and better feeling for important giga than of-the-shelf memory cards. 

-The Form factor is a plus for many, it's crazy modular, a box that you can take anywhere you want. A top handle and a Red LCD on top makes it quite good for shooting, and the touchscreen UI is pretty awesome if you tried it, everything is laid out for you to change, the screen is on-par with the highest-end field monitors out there and has all the features in the industry, no comparison to the 3-4" LCD ypu get on a FS7/C100II. You can use various V-Locks for example, any handles, grips with lanc, LCDs, shoulder pads, cages to bolt anything, audio recorders, it has all the outputs in/outputs as HDSDI, Full HDMI, Genlock, Timecode, power in, sync, it can be changed to your kit more than the other Camcorder forms, and the ability to take everything off easily and mount on a Crane/Movi/Drone is a plus. The numbers say it's going to be a lightweight camera. 

-Being in the Red cult is something we all ridicule (rightfully) but it has it's few upsides, Red is not a japanese mult-billion'dollar manufacturer with hundreds of thousands of employees, red talks to you on a forum, they change firmware and fix bugs for you, they change hardware for you, very responsive and a different level of customer service, there's always something being improved, including the images. 

The fact that you can get a new RED package for 10-14K is an exciting proposition to many really. I am sure this could be one of the best, if not the best kit for lowbudget cinema/music/feature/studio work, just not a complete all rounder for a company doing everything like the FS7/C300 for example, so the Red I am sure has a smaller niche-er market. The Raven adds a new option and competition is healthy, even though it's a vastly different purpose camera than what I need I am sure it will be for many others, and even better it will drive the other manufacturers to compete with it's features. Great for all us. Just choose wisely as a buyer as it'a a different beast.