URSA Mini vs Raven (Updated with Raven 4.5K)

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Reduser is fun. Just get some pop corn and cola and watch. I just watched more than two hundred people preordering the raven before the specifications or pictures were out

 and a few thousands taking it as a fact the Raven destroys and kills the FS7, C300II, Ursa Mini and make them DOA. 

Flicking through the Reduser 40-50 page threads not a single comment on the sensor size being m43s, they are in denial and saying 35mm, not a single comment on the fixed mount, not a single comment on the lack of any audio without buying the expensive 3.5mm jack module, no XLRs, not a single mention of no LUT support, no NDs, nothing. A few said Holly S#$ and WOW and immediately ordered for having ProRes, as a first world-class feature, which is actually exactly the same HD/2K support on the old cheaper FS7 with XDCA. 

Just a pink happy, world with dancing unicorn they're living in where the Raven just became the world's perfect 5000$ camera, and anyone pointing a downside is banned/put down/insulted. 

It's really fun to watch, not kidding! 

@Ed David Take Reduser advice (Phil) and stay off drugs because you stated a downside of the dragon. Without drugs it's all good. As both a physician and a drug junky, I whole-heartedly advice staying off drugs, they give illusions of RED camera flaws, especially opiates and antidepressants. 

Great input from Reduser. 

[Ed_David]

thanks Ebrahim - well said.  That is a place of frustration especially for filmmakers who exist to be critical of the current state of affairs.  Filmmakers should not be sheep.

[docmoore]

thanks for being a fan of my self-destruction.

I am sure I would actually like Jim Jinnard if I met him - but I still side with Geoff Boyle and Art Adams who are more rebellious and take no easy stand people who move and base their decisions on their feelings and emotions, like all people should, not be scared of how history will treat them.

Because we all know history will not treat any of us well - since there are too many of us and no one will care.

Ed I believe that you would like Jim and that your sense of his transgression would be lessened if you were around him ...

The shame of the written word and the internet is that it casts those one off statements into stone ... forever etched in the memory of 

someone. And they more than likely will take offense ... now a word spoken in a moment of weakness can be easily forgiven if we know the

person and the circumstance ... those are wholly outside the perimeter of the internet forum.

My concern about the Reduser Forum is that everyone there engages in a shy form of Orwellian double speak ... as they know that being 

BANNED is a real possibility. Everyone exists as the classic battered spouse ... waiting for the next crisis and shoe to drop.

My Red One had major mojo ... color and grading very organic ... the Epic replacement was too sterile and clinical for me.

 

But no one ... with a couple of exceptions either saw it or were willing to call out the Emperor's new clothes.

 

Self destruction can seem rewarding ... but ultimately how we remember ourselves may not be how history depicts our actions. It is 

a tightrope act to pull off without a safety net ... I recommend you find one ... safe place with individuals of substance and integrity to 

stand in the gap when needed.

 

We should all save our pennies ... perhaps a F35 replacement is just around the decade.

 

Bob

[IronFilm]

RED Raven or URSA Mini 4.6K? Which to go for if their body price is the same & you could pick either? (which they're not! URSA Mini is clearly going to be many thousands cheaper to own)

Clearly the URSA Mini comes out the winner here, as I don't think the Raven is better specced. 
URSA Mini is:
a) has 4K ProRes (Raven doesn't)
b) has XLR inputs 
c) better ergonomics
d) global shutter option
e) sensor size which is a better match for the Canon EF mount (URSA Mini is a little larger than APS-C vs GH2 sized for the Raven)
f) as well as PL/B4 (and more??) mount options available instead
g) cheaper media (and rapidly getting cheaper!! You won't see the same rate of price drops happen with RED's media)
h) I half suspect URSA Mini will have the edge over Raven in low light (though not by a huge amount,. a stop or less). I suspect dynamic range to be close too, given how RED overstates theirs. Will have to wait for each to ship however before this can be really clear which way it falls.
i) way cheaper EVF (and better too I reckon)
j) better slow motion (same fps, but Raven's is heavily compressed RedCode at 13:1 while the BMD URSA Mini can do it in uncompressed raw!)
k) better input/output options. 
l) BMD wins with the higher resolution (ironically so.... as that is RED's big obsession, resolution)
m) free copy of the industry standard DaVinci Resolve (which you'll need to purchase if you wish to colour grade Raven's footage with it)
n) and last but not least.... URSA Mini will ship earlier!! (yes, even with BMD's record of always being late)

Of course the usual caveats apply with this analysis: nobody has either of these in their hands yet, so specs analysis vs real world use might be far apart!

[Emanuel]

thanks for being a fan of my self-destruction.

I am sure I would actually like Jim Jinnard if I met him - but I still side with Geoff Boyle and Art Adams who are more rebellious and take no easy stand people who move and base their decisions on their feelings and emotions, like all people should, not be scared of how history will treat them.

Because we all know history will not treat any of us well - since there are too many of us and no one will care.

The ways of God are a puzzling mystery ;-)

RED Raven or URSA Mini 4.6K? Which to go for if their body price is the same & you could pick either? (which they're not! URSA Mini is clearly going to be many thousands cheaper to own)

Clearly the URSA Mini comes out the winner here, as I don't think the Raven is better specced. 
URSA Mini is:
a) has 4K ProRes (Raven doesn't)
b) has XLR inputs 
c) better ergonomics
d) global shutter option
e) sensor size which is a better match for the Canon EF mount (URSA Mini is a little larger than APS-C vs GH2 sized for the Raven)
f) as well as PL/B4 (and more??) mount options available instead
g) cheaper media (and rapidly getting cheaper!! You won't see the same rate of price drops happen with RED's media)
h) I half suspect URSA Mini will have the edge over Raven in low light (though not by a huge amount,. a stop or less). I suspect dynamic range to be close too, given how RED overstates theirs. Will have to wait for each to ship however before this can be really clear which way it falls.
i) way cheaper EVF (and better too I reckon)
j) better slow motion (same fps, but Raven's is heavily compressed RedCode at 13:1 while the BMD URSA Mini can do it in uncompressed raw!)
k) better input/output options. 
l) BMD wins with the higher resolution (ironically so.... as that is RED's big obsession, resolution)
m) free copy of the industry standard DaVinci Resolve (which you'll need to purchase if you wish to colour grade Raven's footage with it)
n) and last but not least.... URSA Mini will ship earlier!! (yes, even with BMD's record of always being late)

Of course the usual caveats apply with this analysis: nobody has either of these in their hands yet, so specs analysis vs real world use might be far apart!

Other than 120fps/4K and maybe weight, maybe, rather true.

Jarred will need to end to low the price range. It is the crowd there who doesn't let the things go down. Pathetic but that's a fact.

[Jonesy Jones]

RED Raven or URSA Mini 4.6K? Which to go for if their body price is the same & you could pick either? (which they're not! URSA Mini is clearly going to be many thousands cheaper to own)

Clearly the URSA Mini comes out the winner here, as I don't think the Raven is better specced. 
URSA Mini is:
a) has 4K ProRes (Raven doesn't)
b) has XLR inputs 
c) better ergonomics
d) global shutter option
e) sensor size which is a better match for the Canon EF mount (URSA Mini is a little larger than APS-C vs GH2 sized for the Raven)
f) as well as PL/B4 (and more??) mount options available instead
g) cheaper media (and rapidly getting cheaper!! You won't see the same rate of price drops happen with RED's media)
h) I half suspect URSA Mini will have the edge over Raven in low light (though not by a huge amount,. a stop or less). I suspect dynamic range to be close too, given how RED overstates theirs. Will have to wait for each to ship however before this can be really clear which way it falls.
i) way cheaper EVF (and better too I reckon)
j) better slow motion (same fps, but Raven's is heavily compressed RedCode at 13:1 while the BMD URSA Mini can do it in uncompressed raw!)
k) better input/output options. 
l) BMD wins with the higher resolution (ironically so.... as that is RED's big obsession, resolution)
m) free copy of the industry standard DaVinci Resolve (which you'll need to purchase if you wish to colour grade Raven's footage with it)
n) and last but not least.... URSA Mini will ship earlier!! (yes, even with BMD's record of always being late)

Of course the usual caveats apply with this analysis: nobody has either of these in their hands yet, so specs analysis vs real world use might be far apart!

Thank you IronFilm for doing this. I have all of that in the PDF that is in the original post. I can't do a screenshot until I get back to my workstation middle of next week. But your summary is very well done. 

Quick question, did the fps for the URSA mini change? I am only aware that it does 60 fps at 4.6K raw. I think you need to go down to windowed HD prores to get 120, and it was even touted to have 160 at one point. But that would be great if it did 120 full res raw.

[Ed_David]

Ed I believe that you would like Jim and that your sense of his transgression would be lessened if you were around him ...

The shame of the written word and the internet is that it casts those one off statements into stone ... forever etched in the memory of 

someone. And they more than likely will take offense ... now a word spoken in a moment of weakness can be easily forgiven if we know the

person and the circumstance ... those are wholly outside the perimeter of the internet forum.

My concern about the Reduser Forum is that everyone there engages in a shy form of Orwellian double speak ... as they know that being 

BANNED is a real possibility. Everyone exists as the classic battered spouse ... waiting for the next crisis and shoe to drop.

My Red One had major mojo ... color and grading very organic ... the Epic replacement was too sterile and clinical for me.

 

But no one ... with a couple of exceptions either saw it or were willing to call out the Emperor's new clothes.

 

Self destruction can seem rewarding ... but ultimately how we remember ourselves may not be how history depicts our actions. It is 

a tightrope act to pull off without a safety net ... I recommend you find one ... safe place with individuals of substance and integrity to 

stand in the gap when needed.

 

We should all save our pennies ... perhaps a F35 replacement is just around the decade.

 

Bob

My self destrution online is a beautiful thing that I love to do, time and time again.

Will history destroy me?  Good!  All I have to do is change my name.  The cost is relatively cheap.

Yes you nailed it - it all feels like everyone is running around scared of being banned.

[IronFilm]

Thank you IronFilm for doing this. I have all of that in the PDF that is in the original post. I can't do a screenshot until I get back to my workstation middle of next week. But your summary is very well done. 

Quick question, did the fps for the URSA mini change? I am only aware that it does 60 fps at 4.6K raw. I think you need to go down to windowed HD prores to get 120, and it was even touted to have 160 at one point. But that would be great if it did 120 full res raw.

Ah my bad, I mixed up for a moment in my head RED Raven's 4K 120fps thinking that is it at HD and same as URSA Mini. When if it was just that, clearly URSA Mini is better with less compression

I updated my blog post on it to instead read:
"j) URSA Mini doesn’t have the very heavy 13:1 compression in slow motion that the RED Raven has, instead is lossless raw from the URSA Mini."

So I'm still listing it as a benefit of the URSA Mini over the Raven, just from the perspective of quality rather than max FPS. (thought it is raw? Which is why it is windowed. Though if you see evidence otherwise, please let me know. Although, even ProRes HQ should still be better than 13:1 RedCode compression??)

http://ironfilm.co.nz/red-raven-or-ursa-mini-4-6k/

[Nathan DuMoulin]

I updated my blog post on it to instead read:
"j) URSA Mini doesn’t have the very heavy 13:1 compression in slow motion that the RED Raven has, instead is lossless raw from the URSA Mini."

So I'm still listing it as a benefit of the URSA Mini over the Raven, just from the perspective of quality rather than max FPS. (thought it is raw? Which is why it is windowed. Though if you see evidence otherwise, please let me know. Although, even ProRes HQ should still be better than 13:1 RedCode compression??)

This seems awfully biased. 13:1 is when filming at 4K. At 1080p, which the Mini is limited to at 120fps, the Raven will do around 7:1 compression (the Social Network and many other Oscar nominated movies were shot at 7.5:1). At least Raven has the option to shoot at higher res (3K at around 10:1, or 4K at 13:1) which lets shooters get a wider field of view than the Minis utterly unusable 3.5x crop.

 

 

Flicking through the Reduser 40-50 page threads not a single comment on the sensor size being m43s, they are in denial and saying 35mm,

Am I missing something here? Most users don't shoot raw. On the Mini, they will opt to shoot 4K Prores over 4.6k raw. That means cropping in on the sensor to around 1.7x, a mere 0.1x wider than Raven. Why is everyone acting like Raven's sensor size is so terrible, when it's barely any different than the BMC4K, Mini 4K, or 4.6K in ProRes?

I agree that RedUser is ridiculous, but I sense an awful lot of envy going on over here at EOSHD. Why can't people just accept that different tools suit different shooting environments or scenarios? 

And no, I'm not a Red user.

[sudopera]

Am I missing something here? Most users don't shoot raw. On the Mini, they will opt to shoot 4K Prores over 4.6k raw. That means cropping in on the sensor to around 1.7x, a mere 0.1x wider than Raven. Why is everyone acting like Raven's sensor size is so terrible, when it's barely any different than the BMC4K, Mini 4K, or 4.6K in ProRes?

The thing is that URSA Mini compressed raw(3:1 if I remember correctly) actualy has lower file sizes than UHD ProRes 444, so there is a good reason to shoot raw instead of ProRes and take advantage of the full sensor image.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Why is everyone acting like Raven's sensor size is so terrible, when it's barely any differrent

Because it is a big deal. Very big deal.

The URSA mini actually has one of the largest super 35mm sensors available on the market so I have no idea where you found it's a common issue with the Raven and Mini. 

URSA Mini: 25.4mm x 14.3mm (1.43x)

Red Raven: 20.5mm x 10.8mm (1.87x)

AF100 m43s: 19mm x 10.5mm (1.92x)

The Raven is basically the same as the AF100 but at 17:9, 1mm wider. It's the same size, aesthetic, DOF, lens rendition. 

The C300II and FS7 are 23.5mm x 13.5mm, the standard 1.5x image format,

While the URSA Mini is closer from all these cameras to the real super 35mm film gate with an approx 1.4x crop, the raven is approx 1.9x crop. It's a HUGE difference in sensor size, depth of field, field of view, aesthetics and lens compatibility. 

A 50mm on the Raven is a approx 93mm while on the URSA is approx 70mm. If that's not a thing to be mentioned I don't know what is. And not just between the Raven and the abnormally large URSA Mini sensor but even compared to the standard 1.5x sensor on its competitors (C300, C100, FS7, F5) it's a difference that makes lenses look completely different.

I have no idea how Red is trying (succesfully, at least to Reduser members) to pass 20.5mmx10.8mm as S35 normal size image, it's much, much closer, and identical to m43s. 1.87 rounds up to 1.9 not down to 1.5, that's just silly.

1.55 might round up to 1.5

1.45. might do,

1.6 at max,

but not 1.87x.

Since Red/Redusers are rounding up then it's 1.9x. M43s, but they're avoiding the m43s word as if it were an STD. 

A piece of true information, Red actually wanted to build the Raven with a m43s mount to suit the sensor size better, but in the prototype design stage they couldn't technically achieve squeezing the components of their sensor module/OLPF/IRF into the small 18mm flange distance, so they chose the closest next popular mount, Canon EF. M43s lenses cover and would work great with the Raven and open up a whole different world of Panasonic/Olympus/Veydra m43s glass. 

The Raven image size might not be an issue for some, but it is an issue for many, be aware before ordering. Look at the sensor dimensions in mm compared to the competition. 

[Jimmy]

I think what Nathan was getting at is that when shooting with Mini in ProRes, the sensor crops to UHD, which means the sensor size becomes much closer to the Raven. It's a fair comment.

What is perhaps less fair is the assumption that "most users wont shoot raw". At 4:1 compression, it becomes an option, for sure. (REDCode is only saving 40% space, at 4:1... and is actually 0.6K smaller)

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I don't think it's a fair point in comparing sensor sizes of these two cameras no. The Raven is 1.87x the Ursa Mini is 1.45x size. Both cameras offer crop modes beyond that.

[Nathan DuMoulin]

The thing is that URSA Mini compressed raw(3:1 if I remember correctly) actualy has lower file sizes than UHD ProRes 444, so there is a good reason to shoot raw instead of ProRes and take advantage of the full sensor image.

I think what Nathan was getting at is that when shooting with Mini in ProRes, the sensor crops to UHD, which means the sensor size becomes much closer to the Raven. It's a fair comment.

What is perhaps less fair is the assumption that "most users wont shoot raw". At 4:1 compression, it becomes an option, for sure. (REDCode is only saving 40% space, at 4:1... and is actually 0.6K smaller)

These points are very valid. Very helpful in my decision, and much more useful than the earlier Red bashing tone. Thanks!

[Emanuel]

I don't think it's a fair point in comparing sensor sizes of these two cameras no. The Raven is 1.87x the Ursa Mini is 1.45x size. Both cameras offer crop modes beyond that.

This post is delicious... Ebrahim! ;-)

My self destrution online is a beautiful thing that I love to do, time and time again.

Will history destroy me?  Good!  All I have to do is change my name.  The cost is relatively cheap.

Yes you nailed it - it all feels like everyone is running around scared of being banned.

LOL No self destruction, but guts, a much different perspective... ;-)

Normally, I say it the same, trying to use the best words to say what is necessary to say anyway.

We are not a crowd but we can be as good as them : D

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136117-4K4ALL&p=1546364&viewfull=1#post1546364

[Nathan DuMoulin]

I don't think it's a fair point in comparing sensor sizes of these two cameras no. The Raven is 1.87x the Ursa Mini is 1.45x size. Both cameras offer crop modes beyond that.

This post is delicious... Ebrahim! ;-)

This is, after all, a thread about comparing the two cameras, with much talk about sensor size, so why all the sudden is comparing sensor sizes not fair? Seems a little counter productive, doesn't it?

The reality is that the Mini shoots at 1.4x FF, while the Raven shoots 1.8x FF. That's a clear advantage for the Mini, however when speaking in terms of high frame rates, the Raven kills the mini in terms of widest available crop, with 1.8x vs 3.5x. For the Raven, 13:1 compression at 4K is horrible, yet on the Mini, raw at 3.5x HD crop is incredibly limiting. It will take a 6-7mm Fisheye to get an UWA shot, and as far as I know the EF fisheyes are f2.8 at best, which yields a DOF of about f10. This is a MASSIVE downside to the Mini that everyone seems to be overlooking.

Personally the Mini seems like a much better camera in terms of performance per dollar, but all this bias towards the Raven is not making for a very objective comparison.

 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

 but all this bias towards the Raven is not making for a very objective comparison.

 

Well, first it's a RED. 

-Don't take this lightly, a RED has a different value to clients than a Sony or Canon, the Raven will surely get/impress more clients than the FS7/C100/300/URSA. Especially as it will have a very similar body to the weapon. This is a good reason alone to get the Raven, it's a Red. 

-Then there's the image, we can compare specs all day but if the raven has a better image, it's what matters to many shooters. The raven, will most likely at low ISO, when exposed right, in music video/feature/studio environment, red raw files do produce so thick images with great colour science, in these situations the Raven will most likely make a beefier image vs the XAVC or AVCHD from the FS7/C100, it's raw, higher bit rate, no chroma subsampling, that you can take later and transform to any codec you want then erase the masters. 

-There's the high frame rates, Red has great HFR, certainly better than the binned-aliased way of the Sonys and the soft non-aliased way of Canons, this Raven for example is the first camera on the bracket to shoot 120p 4K, I do expect great 120p HD options at least better than the rivals here. 

-Red has the only RAW format I've ever worked with that I was glad using, Redcode files are simply great in terms or compression:quality ratio. Nowhere near Cinema DNG and better quality than 10bit/422 codecs certainly without much penalty, and the media while expensive we have to admit it sturdier and better feeling for important giga than of-the-shelf memory cards. 

-The Form factor is a plus for many, it's crazy modular, a box that you can take anywhere you want. A top handle and a Red LCD on top makes it quite good for shooting, and the touchscreen UI is pretty awesome if you tried it, everything is laid out for you to change, the screen is on-par with the highest-end field monitors out there and has all the features in the industry, no comparison to the 3-4" LCD ypu get on a FS7/C100II. You can use various V-Locks for example, any handles, grips with lanc, LCDs, shoulder pads, cages to bolt anything, audio recorders, it has all the outputs in/outputs as HDSDI, Full HDMI, Genlock, Timecode, power in, sync, it can be changed to your kit more than the other Camcorder forms, and the ability to take everything off easily and mount on a Crane/Movi/Drone is a plus. The numbers say it's going to be a lightweight camera. 

-Being in the Red cult is something we all ridicule (rightfully) but it has it's few upsides, Red is not a japanese mult-billion'dollar manufacturer with hundreds of thousands of employees, red talks to you on a forum, they change firmware and fix bugs for you, they change hardware for you, very responsive and a different level of customer service, there's always something being improved, including the images. 

The fact that you can get a new RED package for 10-14K is an exciting proposition to many really. I am sure this could be one of the best, if not the best kit for lowbudget cinema/music/feature/studio work, just not a complete all rounder for a company doing everything like the FS7/C300 for example, so the Red I am sure has a smaller niche-er market. The Raven adds a new option and competition is healthy, even though it's a vastly different purpose camera than what I need I am sure it will be for many others, and even better it will drive the other manufacturers to compete with it's features. Great for all us. Just choose wisely as a buyer as it'a a different beast. 

 

 

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

 

Pretty solid rebuttal without saying a word.

[Emanuel]

Pretty solid rebuttal without saying a word.

Nathan, Ebrahim is perhaps the most valuable poster among us, his silences also speak on his behalf... LOL Need to read between the lines, maybe you'll find out more similarities with your thinking than apparently seems to you at first glance ;-)

He loves filmmaking after all and filmmakers speak through signs, figurative speech and so on...

At times, it happens to write it upside down!

[Nathan DuMoulin]

Nathan, Ebrahim is perhaps the most valuable poster among us, his silences also speak on his behalf... LOL Need to read between the lines, maybe you'll find out more similarities with your thinking than apparently seems to you at first glance ;-)

He loves filmmaking after all and filmmakers speak through signs, figurative speech and so on...

At times, it happens to write it upside down!

 

I was actually being sincere. The fact that he didnt have to write a single new word made his point even more effectively!

 

EDIT. I should probably also clarify that when I said that the there's a heavy bias against Red, I was speaking in general terms in regards to the collective thread. I didn't mean Ebrahim specifically, although I was probably not as clear with my wording as I should have been.