URSA Mini vs Raven (Updated with Raven 4.5K)

[Emanuel]

The beef of them with RED is the fact the company has a policy of overpriced accessories when the initial idea was to disrupt the industry. Jarred still uses the line. At a certain point, companies like Sony or Panasonic became more client friendly than the one used to make the rules of the business change.

They succeeded to launch a camera that placed the offer for a fraction of the supply then. The infamous 103,000.00 F900 rate reduced to the promising $17,500 for identical formatting of a digital cinema camera body! Almost ten years later, the market model is not the same anymore. Panasonic offers professional recording 10-bit 4:2:2 option for free in their consumer line (hence YAGH, not AF200 as proof of it), Sony has resisted but outputs 4:2:2 even though still* 8-bit and sells a cine zoom lens under $2,500. A good part thanks to RED, true.

Actually, sad to see now the same company playing the same role usually performed by the giants of this sector before. Who've wisely gotten the lesson much earlier than that one to still keep trying to preserve the current mainstream instead. Bizarre. Innovation was replaced by hold the line attitude. That's what HFR 8K is, at an unfriendly indie rate. 4K4all tag (by RED) accordingly. It is a pity. BMD is the only winner over here. And their clientele, of course.

I know some RED early adopters who work and live for buying the yearly updates. Where's the obsolescence obsolete concept? Only in the marketing. All these tricks have annoyed serious non'sheep people as for instance Ed who has been a voice against it. Along the years, I've seen a few others to follow the track. Some of them I personally brought to RED. Hence my inner POV and, sorry who can dislike it, also educated from inside.

E :-)

 

* Unfortunately, RED is out of the game where BMD can help to make FFC's dream even more real than today.

[Emanuel]

 

[Oliver Daniel]

Thought I'd at least bring a topic back to the top. My Chinese isn't great. 

REDuser is very biased, but no wonder as a lot of members have spent incredible amounts of money on their RED packages. They will naturally defend it. 

I have an URSA 4.6k on pre-order still, and I will keep it open in the time being. I just depends the way my market area will shift - I'm finding at the moment that music video production (like music releases) is just getting less and less, cheaper and cheaper (and other factors) which will force me to change business perspective. Come November, the most ideal camera for me might be an FS5. (the windowed 120fps on Mini is a major concern at 3.5x crop). 

99% of my commercial clients don't give a crap what you shoot on. I know for sure that I could invest in a RED Raven, market that I have one and reel bands in with my new spectacular shooting arsenal, but a factory farm of very low budget work filling up my schedule with endless shoots and little return isn't a good move. I'm basing myself on the ideas and service I can provide - with the technology secondary, focusing on the commercial sector. 

In a years time, (if investing) the Red Raven could be an expensive mistake or the holy grail of your business plan. The camera ultimately has to fit your business model, or you are basically p*ssing in the wind. It's not really about the best camera, it's what fits. The one that fits might not be your ideal choice. 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Nathan, Ebrahim is perhaps the most valuable poster among us, his silences also speak on his behalf... LOL Need to read between the lines, maybe you'll find out more similarities with your thinking than apparently seems to you at first glance ;-)

He loves filmmaking after all and filmmakers speak through signs, figurative speech and so on...

At times, it happens to write it upside down!

 

I was actually being sincere. The fact that he didnt have to write a single new word made his point even more effectively!

 

EDIT. I should probably also clarify that when I said that the there's a heavy bias against Red, I was speaking in general terms in regards to the collective thread. I didn't mean Ebrahim specifically, although I was probably not as clear with my wording as I should have been.

This is pretty funny

Nathan: I don't know why you guys don't see it (forum bug?) but I quoted then replied with a second, long quote (certainly more than a single word, more like a thousand). In the missing quote I try to list great points about the Raven, just to show balance since people are starting to see only negativity, it's getting a bit miserable. 

 

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

 

This is pretty funny

Nathan: I don't know why you guys don't see it (forum bug?) but I quoted then replied with a second, long quote (certainly more than a single word, more like a thousand). In the missing quote I try to list great points about the Raven, just to show balance since people are starting to see only negativity, it's getting a bit miserable. 

 

 

I could see that quote, and that's why it was so effective. It's not that you didn't say anything, its that you didn't have to say anything NEW. You basically said to me "read this you idiot" and showed me that there were indeed positive things already posted about Raven. It worked. lol

[Nathan DuMoulin]

On a more serious note, for most people, I certainly understand that Raven isn't a good fit. It's $4000 more than the Mini, it's not as good in low light, it's basically an ugly brick, the crop factor is inferior, it sucks at audio with horrible 3.5mm jacks, etc. However for me, I shoot in a studio lit environment, on a jib, with external audio, so most of Raven's limitations aren't a factor. I also shoot a ton of slow motion, so that's where the Raven 4K 120fps really appeals to me, as it's far superior to the Mini's nearly unusable 3.5x crop when shooting HD slow motion.

Which of course brings us to the apparent  horrors of 13:1 Redcode compression.

I've been collecting some high frame rate Dragon footage from people, with heavy compression ratios similar to what are offered on Raven. Specifically 13:1. I've found some good samples and some bad, but it's shown me that properly lit and exposed 13:1 can look quite good when downscaled to 1080p. Sure the compression isn't ideal, but when I usually float around 75-100fps, 7:1 and 10:1 are perfectly acceptable. It's only in those occasion 120fps required circumstances that the 13:1 even becomes a factor. At the end of the day, I'm delivering 1080p to network TV, and not cinema.

Simply put, Raven may be a poor purchase to most, but it's a clear winner for my personal needs.

[Emanuel]

On a more serious note, for most people, I certainly understand that Raven isn't a good fit. It's $4000 more than the Mini, it's not as good in low light, it's basically an ugly brick, the crop factor is inferior, it sucks at audio with horrible 3.5mm jacks, etc. However for me, I shoot in a studio lit environment, on a jib, with external audio, so most of Raven's limitations aren't a factor. I also shoot a ton of slow motion, so that's where the Raven 4K 120fps really appeals to me, as it's far superior to the Mini's nearly unusable 3.5x crop when shooting HD slow motion.

Which of course brings us to the apparent  horrors of 13:1 Redcode compression.

I've been collecting some high frame rate Dragon footage from people, with heavy compression ratios similar to what are offered on Raven. Specifically 13:1. I've found some good samples and some bad, but it's shown me that properly lit and exposed 13:1 can look quite good when downscaled to 1080p. Sure the compression isn't ideal, but when I usually float around 75-100fps, 7:1 and 10:1 are perfectly acceptable. It's only in those occasion 120fps required circumstances that the 13:1 even becomes a factor. At the end of the day, I'm delivering 1080p to network TV, and not cinema.

Simply put, Raven may be a poor purchase to most, but it's a clear winner for my personal needs.

Well, you still have URSA 120fps/4K or URSA Mini 60fps/4K + Twixtor...

[Nathan DuMoulin]

Well, you still have URSA 120fps/4K or URSA Mini 60fps/4K + Twixtor...

The big Ursa is just too heavy and cumbersome. As for Twixtor, I will be using it to get from 120fps to higher frame rates, assuming that it does a better job than Ravens shitty 2K 240fps. lol

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Indeed the 4k super slowmotion is the single most prominent feature, it's great. The only cameras that shoot 120p 4K in this price bracket are the URSA HUGE, Cion, FS700 (burst). All less than ideal cameras.

[Emanuel]

: D Indeed, impossible to not agree with both.

[Oliver Daniel]

On a more serious note, for most people, I certainly understand that Raven isn't a good fit. It's $4000 more than the Mini, it's not as good in low light, it's basically an ugly brick, the crop factor is inferior, it sucks at audio with horrible 3.5mm jacks, etc. However for me, I shoot in a studio lit environment, on a jib, with external audio, so most of Raven's limitations aren't a factor. I also shoot a ton of slow motion, so that's where the Raven 4K 120fps really appeals to me, as it's far superior to the Mini's nearly unusable 3.5x crop when shooting HD slow motion.

Which of course brings us to the apparent  horrors of 13:1 Redcode compression.

I've been collecting some high frame rate Dragon footage from people, with heavy compression ratios similar to what are offered on Raven. Specifically 13:1. I've found some good samples and some bad, but it's shown me that properly lit and exposed 13:1 can look quite good when downscaled to 1080p. Sure the compression isn't ideal, but when I usually float around 75-100fps, 7:1 and 10:1 are perfectly acceptable. It's only in those occasion 120fps required circumstances that the 13:1 even becomes a factor. At the end of the day, I'm delivering 1080p to network TV, and not cinema.

Simply put, Raven may be a poor purchase to most, but it's a clear winner for my personal needs.

Probably right this minute - a Raven would be the best camera choice for my shooting. I shoot many music videos, but the momentum is shifting in a different direction...

Which brings me to the URSA Mini. It's better suited to commercial/corporate work however this 120fps crop is very concerning with an EF mount. Possibly a deal breaker....

Which then brings me to the "lowly" FS5. Nothing spectacular - just very versatile for many shooting styles. If I'm going to be doing plenty of corporate work and bits of music video, this could be a better fit.... (240fps 1080p, lightweight, raw eternal support in future firmware update).

However, I love the Blackmagic image - it's just much more spectacular than the weirdness of Slog and could add something a bit more special in the imaging department. Maybe there is a solution for 120fps 3.5x windowed with EF lenses...

But the Raven. It's RED. Dragon sensor...and it's RED too. 

You get the point.

[Emanuel]

To me, 4K/60fps is already a good shot. Twixtor a must help. Raven, a promising 120fps, except for that RED policy already mentioned. It simply is a buster.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

@@Oliver Daniel I am familiar with your great work and type of shooting, I think the raven is probably the best camera for you. You work in controlled in-door environments and light your own stuff, so Look around and see if owning a Red in the community you work in is a marketing plus, if it is, I'd cancel the Ursa Mini and go for an 11K basic Raven Package. If they don't care and you'll make the same revenue from an URSA then the Raven 4000$ish extra cost would be just wasted by you business wise. Don't forget to look at the rental demands too as a large part of the revenue people get from owning reds is hiring out. 

This is what it really comes down to in the end. 

If I had an Alexa/Epic (or specifically a C300 MK One) I'd be able to make its worth back in rentals without working a day in a couple of months, and then it starts becoming a revenue source, a money-making machine. Something an FS5, C100, 1DC, Ursa wouldn't do at all where I am (and most of the world). 

Make your decision based on business, these cameras will all create your music videos perfectly and nobody will be able to tell the difference in the final project, not even us. 

[sudopera]

This is just my personal opinion

I believe that first priority for a lower price point cinematic style camera should be that it has stellar image in 24-25-30p(DR, good colors, raw, prores or equaly good compressed codecs, true S35 sensor or bigger unless someone really likes S16 look, usability and fast workflow etc.). I also adore to shoot slowmo but what is the point if all of the above mentioned boxes are not ticked first. URSA Mini with its price point simply can't do everything and why would someone even look at anything else if that was the case... I think that it is the most complete cinematic package at the moment on the market for such price at least on paper, but it has to prove its worth in the real world. No matter how much slowmo is used and overused, still most of our work will be 24-25-30p and URSA Mini 4K 60p is certainly a great bonus feature with all those other great specs. I'm not trying to bash Raven or any other camera here, I just think that URSA Mini has much more boxes ticked on paper than any of its competitors. Everything you need is either in the body or on the body, no crazy rigging, cables, modules and whatnot. For me the math is simple, better to have 3 or more great features and lose 1 other great feature than the other way around, because there is always an option to rent if one really needs that 1 other feature for a certain project. Would I like to have both cams if I could afford them, I most certainly would.
And lets not forget global shutter feature which could be very important for some fast action and that taboo motion cadence thing .

[Jimmy]

This is what keeps drawing me towards the C300 II, even though it only ticks certain spec boxes. 4K/24p with a great image will go a long, long way.

This might just be enough to sway me away from the all singing, all dancing cameras that are heavy, ergonomically awkward and less "ready".

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Rememer specs and real world camera are two vastly different things. They mean ZERO beyond camera size, sensor size, and camera weight.

 http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/8900-do-specifications-mean-anything-regarding-cameras-performance-a-research/

One should never be a first adopter for >5000$ cameras especially when they're coming from Red and Blackmagic. Wait for confirmation by reviewers and ideally rent. 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

Rememer specs and real world camera are two vastly different things. They mean ZERO beyond camera size, sensor size, and camera weight.

 http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/8900-do-specifications-mean-anything-regarding-cameras-performance-a-research/

One should never be a first adopter for >5000$ cameras especially when they're coming from Red and Blackmagic. Wait for confirmation by reviewers and ideally rent. 

I fully agree, although I'm not sure this applies to the Raven. It's a Weapon body, which is already in the wild, and a Dragon sensor, which is a staple of the commercial, music and occasion cinema industry. A 4K crop from any existing Weapon/Dragon footage shows you exactly what you'll be getting.

[Mattias Burling]

I wont say anything for sure before either using both or seeing alot of footage from both.

But if I was to guess based on current available gear, gear Ive used, specs like compression as well as hardware specs, etc.

The URSA will win in Image Quality, price and usability.

[sudopera]

This is what keeps drawing me towards the C300 II, even though it only ticks certain spec boxes. 4K/24p with a great image will go a long, long way.

This might just be enough to sway me away from the all singing, all dancing cameras that are heavy, ergonomically awkward and less "ready".

When we look at the fully working Raven price, it is actually more of a C300 II competitor than to URSA Mini, and in this case I would personally go C300 II way in a blink of an eye because that camera is much more versatile. You can do cinema style stuff or fast turnaround broadcast stuff without any hassle and there is a great possibility that it would bring more rent money than Raven.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

When we look at the fully working Raven price, it is actually more of a C300 II competitor than to URSA Mini, and in this case I would personally go C300 II way in a blink of an eye because that camera is much more versatile. You can do cinema style stuff or fast turnaround broadcast stuff without any hassle and there is a great possibility that it would bring more rent money than Raven.

It's true the Canon is the harshest rival to the Raven at this point, every film person I know is lusting for a C300II and waiting for release, I believe that's based on the reliability Canon built with the first model and the specs they jammed into the second model, too much specs really.

-Much better all-in-one form factor yet still just as modular 

-Significantly larger sensor, 1.5x vs 1.9x crop 

-Significantly better lowlight performance, It's at least 4-5 stops ahead than the weapon sensor if it's the same.

-Much cheaper non proprietary media and dual slots, and an SD slot

-Much longer power and smaller batteries, one small battery goes 4 hours vs 30-40mins.

-Internal full fledged 4-channnel audio with XLRs, phantom power and physical knobs

-ProRes XQ quality 4K (XFAVC 4K 10big 4:2:2 405mbps and 2K raw quality (12bit 4:2:2), plus a broadcast friendly HD 50mbps 4:2:2 mxf. 

-Outputs raw signal through a standard SDI connection to any external recorder, outputs 4K HDMI, 

-Has an interchangeable mount, 

-Has the revolutionary Dual pixel AF system, 

-Much much more buttons and customization 

-Built in high quality EVF and a fully rotating removable OLED LCD

-Better ergonomic design with the rotatable side grip, top handle, rear info LCD, 20 buttons vs 2, dials, mic holder, 

-Built in 10 stops ND filteration

-Canon proven colour science and skin tones

-Shoots straight off the box, you don't need to assemble the camera playing grown-ups Lego, 

 

The only Raven winnings are in 

-4K slowmotiom, C300II has none, 2K 240p 1.87x vs 2K 120p 3x crop

-Internal raw recording (compressed)

-Slightly lower price point (14K for a full package with lots of media vs about 17-18K

The raven is a much better slowmotion camera apparently and that's the only reason to pick it over the C300, Both will have similar images aside from lowlight and sensor size aesthetic based on the tests we've seen between C300II and weapon.

 

I remember how the first C300 was way less speced than the red offering, now the situation has inverted ironically with Canon maxing out specs (and even going for an 8K C300II) and Red lowering specs, and even though the C300 was lower speced it was the clear winner, so perhaps the  lower speced Raven is going to be the winner here too, specs rarely tell the truth. We never know which of these two cameras might have a killer bug like FPN, laggy menus, crashes, etc.