URSA Mini vs Raven (Updated with Raven 4.5K)

[sudopera]

 

-Shoots straight off the box, you don't need to assemble the camera playing grown-ups Lego

 

Ha ha, I was just thinking an hour ago how almost all of us were praising FS7 when it was announced for its "put it on the shoulder and shoot" design and now URSA Mini has gone in that direction, Canon C line already had similar philosophy, but now I should buy a "sensor in a box" because it's Red and spend my time looking should I buy Movcam this, Vocas that, Wooden Camera that, various modules etc. What to do with all that overpriced stuff if you jump later to lets say an ARRI AMIRA which is also "put it on the shoulder and shoot" camera(how boring). Also ARRI makes the best cameras and if anyone could be forgiven for using proprietary cards it would be them, but they chose to go CFast route with AMIRA, like all other normal non join our cult and stay here forever companies .

[Nathan DuMoulin]

Ha ha, I was just thinking an hour ago how almost all of us were praising FS7 when it was announced for its "put it on the shoulder and shoot" design and now URSA Mini has gone in that direction, Canon C line already had similar philosophy, but now I should buy a "sensor in a box" because it's Red and spend my time looking should I buy Movcam this, Vocas that, Wooden Camera that, various modules etc. What to do with all that overpriced stuff if you jump later to lets say an ARRI AMIRA which is also "put it on the shoulder and shoot" camera(how boring). Also ARRI makes the best cameras and if anyone could be forgiven for using proprietary cards it would be them, but they chose to go CFast route with AMIRA, like all other normal non join our cult and stay here forever companies .

Hard to argue there.

But conversely, the Weapon form factor may suck for run and gun, but its modular structure makes it more versatile in other ways. You can combine these various modules and components to make your own custom camera, which is certainly pretty cool. And it's all integrated and cable-less, with third parties now starting to release their own more cost effective modules. Pretty crazy the prices of some of the stuff, but it does allow you to add features that other systems couldn't possible have without a million cables and external components, such as wireless video modules, WIFI driven electronic follow focus, wireless timecode, additional independent monitors paths with each one having its own 3D LUT, etc.

Different needs, different cameras. It's as simple as that.

Now if someone could combine the ergonomics of Sony and Canon with prices of Blackmagic, and the modularity of Weapon, we'd have ourselves something pretty incredible.

[IronFilm]

Am I missing something here? Most users don't shoot raw. On the Mini, they will opt to shoot 4K Prores over 4.6k raw. That means cropping in on the sensor to around 1.7x, a mere 0.1x wider than Raven. Why is everyone acting like Raven's sensor size is so terrible, when it's barely any different than the BMC4K, Mini 4K, or 4.6K in ProRes?

I agree that RedUser is ridiculous, but I sense an awful lot of envy going on over here at EOSHD. Why can't people just accept that different tools suit different shooting environments or scenarios? 

And no, I'm not a Red user.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  BMD's ProRes 4K is coming down from entire 4.6K sensor (only raw 4K would be a cropped portion).

Because it is a big deal. Very big deal.

The URSA mini actually has one of the largest super 35mm sensors available on the market so I have no idea where you found it's a common issue with the Raven and Mini. 

URSA Mini: 25.4mm x 14.3mm (1.43x)

Red Raven: 20.5mm x 10.8mm (1.87x)

AF100 m43s: 19mm x 10.5mm (1.92x)

The Raven is basically the same as the AF100 but at 17:9, 1mm wider. It's the same size, aesthetic, DOF, lens rendition. 

The C300II and FS7 are 23.5mm x 13.5mm, the standard 1.5x image format,

While the URSA Mini is closer from all these cameras to the real super 35mm film gate with an approx 1.4x crop, the raven is approx 1.9x crop. It's a HUGE difference in sensor size, depth of field, field of view, aesthetics and lens compatibility. 

A 50mm on the Raven is a approx 93mm while on the URSA is approx 70mm. If that's not a thing to be mentioned I don't know what is. And not just between the Raven and the abnormally large URSA Mini sensor but even compared to the standard 1.5x sensor on its competitors (C300, C100, FS7, F5) it's a difference that makes lenses look completely different.

I have no idea how Red is trying (succesfully, at least to Reduser members) to pass 20.5mmx10.8mm as S35 normal size image, it's much, much closer, and identical to m43s. 1.87 rounds up to 1.9 not down to 1.5, that's just silly.

1.55 might round up to 1.5

1.45. might do,

1.6 at max,

but not 1.87x.

Since Red/Redusers are rounding up then it's 1.9x. M43s, but they're avoiding the m43s word as if it were an STD. 

A piece of true information, Red actually wanted to build the Raven with a m43s mount to suit the sensor size better, but in the prototype design stage they couldn't technically achieve squeezing the components of their sensor module/OLPF/IRF into the small 18mm flange distance, so they chose the closest next popular mount, Canon EF. M43s lenses cover and would work great with the Raven and open up a whole different world of Panasonic/Olympus/Veydra m43s glass. 

The Raven image size might not be an issue for some, but it is an issue for many, be aware before ordering. Look at the sensor dimensions in mm compared to the competition. 

That is very sad news that they tried but couldn't achieve a m4/3 mount! As that would've been so much better than Canon EF :-( Where did you read that they experimented with using m4/3 mount?

[Emanuel]

Hard to argue there.

But conversely, the Weapon form factor may suck for run and gun, but its modular structure makes it more versatile in other ways. You can combine these various modules and components to make your own custom camera, which is certainly pretty cool. And it's all integrated and cable-less, with third parties now starting to release their own more cost effective modules. Pretty crazy the prices of some of the stuff, but it does allow you to add features that other systems couldn't possible have without a million cables and external components, such as wireless video modules, WIFI driven electronic follow focus, wireless timecode, additional independent monitors paths with each one having its own 3D LUT, etc.

Different needs, different cameras. It's as simple as that.

I give you an example... Yesterday, I spoke with some core early adopters of every single RED camera till today. My wondering about Weapon. Answer: "No way, price doesn't justify a new purchase, we've already invested a lot of money in RED cameras". I guess RED must listen or we all RED lovers won't have reasons to praise RED for much longer...

The early spirit of RED is necessary for this industry, we are today what RED made yesterday.

Emanuel :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#History

[johnnyd]

Why so much hate on red? I mean yes there are some ridiculous things like the naming of the products etc and yes the cameras are getting very pricey although when they started red was all for affordability but we are still looking at a camera that is one of the industry top dogs with arri for example and look at their pricing of cameras, accessories etc..

Anyway, imo the raven seems like a good option for some people, no it's not a doc run-n-gun camera and I don't really think anyone was expecting it to have things like xlrs and built-in nd out the box. But it seems like it could be a very lightweight and modular camera capable of shooting a feature film and it's a new red camera with a shootable package for $12-15k. That should be something to drive the competition. Plus it is going to see a lot of use in gimbal work, drones, cablecams,crashcam anything where you need a small lightweight body with maximum image quality.

For me the crop factor isn't such a big deal. Look at it this way - compared to traditional cinema standard s35 (not FF stills) the crop is only about 1.1-1.2  lol

And before someone calls me a fanboy - no, I do not own any gear from red, just tryin to discuss the product at hand.

BTW I totally agree that this is more c300 mk 2 territory than Ursa Mini. I was trying to find info on how much the new canon weighs to see how it goes on a gimbal but it is not listed anywhere in the specs? Anyone have any info on that?

 

[Jimmy]

I don't see much hate for RED here, just people pointing the pros and cons out.

 

C300 II weight is 1.8kg/4Llbs

[johnnyd]

I don't see much hate for RED here, just people pointing the pros and cons out.

 

C300 II weight is 1.8kg/4Llbs

Thanks Jimmy! Thought it would've been heavier than that to be honest :o c300 2 looks like a great product although the price is kinda steep when looking at the specs but the image is most likely worth the $$!

Yeah, don't know if hate is the right word, but some people have had a particular tone when talking about red and just trying to understand their pov

Cheers!

[Jimmy]

There is a similar sort of tone with topics about Canon too... Some companies seem to split people down the middle.

I couldn't care less about the brand, personally... I've owner or rented them all ,more or less... And all have pros and cons

[Oliver Daniel]

@@Oliver Daniel I am familiar with your great work and type of shooting, I think the raven is probably the best camera for you. You work in controlled in-door environments and light your own stuff, so Look around and see if owning a Red in the community you work in is a marketing plus, if it is, I'd cancel the Ursa Mini and go for an 11K basic Raven Package. If they don't care and you'll make the same revenue from an URSA then the Raven 4000$ish extra cost would be just wasted by you business wise. Don't forget to look at the rental demands too as a large part of the revenue people get from owning reds is hiring out. 

This is what it really comes down to in the end. 

If I had an Alexa/Epic (or specifically a C300 MK One) I'd be able to make its worth back in rentals without working a day in a couple of months, and then it starts becoming a revenue source, a money-making machine. Something an FS5, C100, 1DC, Ursa wouldn't do at all where I am (and most of the world). 

Make your decision based on business, these cameras will all create your music videos perfectly and nobody will be able to tell the difference in the final project, not even us. 

Thanks for the kind words. 

With my work, barely anybody asks about the camera. I shot a Christmas video for the frontman of a UK 70's rock band a couple of weeks ago on the RX10 II. Budget was ok. Nobody said anything. They never do. 

The way our business development is going - the FS5 might be the right tool (not necessarily the wanted tool). My URSA Mini pre-order is still open. I'll rent it first, throw it in the deep end straight away and see if it's worth going through with it. 

I wouldn't pre-order the Raven, it's something I'd have to try a few times first. The BM pre-order was more a "love" thing, but I need to assess that too. 

Think I'll just stick with the iPhone 6s, as it's got 4k and 240fps. Plus Instagram! FREE grading!!!  

 

[graphicnatured]

Think I'll just stick with the iPhone 6s, as it's got 4k and 240fps. Plus Instagram! FREE grading!!!  

 

Then you can crush the 15 second documentary market! 

[Jonesy Jones]

Ok. This finally has me thinking a bit now. 4.5k red Raven is a different story. Thoughts?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?137489-Raven-Everything-Just-Changed

Also, just added updated spec sheet to the original post (page 1).

[IronFilm]

No increase in Y resolution however. Still doing their bit to protect their higher end cameras. 
 

[Jimmy]

Interesting move by RED... Shame I had to go onto that forum, need to wash the red frenzy from my eyes.

[sudopera]

Interesting move by RED... Shame I had to go onto that forum, need to wash the red frenzy from my eyes.

Yeah, multiple orgasms happened over there 

[Oliver Daniel]

Ok. This finally has me thinking a bit now. 4.5k red Raven is a different story. Thoughts?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?137489-Raven-Everything-Just-Changed

Also, just added updated spec sheet to the original post (page 1).

REDUser threads are cringeworthy: 

1st page then stopped....

"Ursa just got URSED!" 

It's like some of them are in an army - "our country is better than yours" kinda vibes. It fits with the product naming scheme I guess. 

That said, RED cameras are awesome. 

[Jimmy]

Funny thing is, stuff like that just makes me want to buy an Ursa now!

[AaronChicago]

4K was fine but 4.5K is AMAZING!? What?

[John Emery]

Both look great! I just hate the idea of paying for basic extras like the audio module (XLRs) on the red. If it was 10000 with everything (like the red one), I would think about it... but for around 7000€ you can have a completely usable Ursa mini 4.6k... I'm going for the URSA

[mkabi]

Sorry, for reviving an old topic.

I'm quite interested in the Red Raven.

Just so that people are up to date. Sensor size has also increased? Its a 4.5K sensor with 1.62 crop factor?

And, yeah it does 4.5K @ 120fps. 15:1 REDCode ratio.

Perhaps someone can enlighten us about the compression? I mean you guys say its bad compared to a more useable 8:1 and lower, but what does that mean?

Okay... for example... I did some research on the REDCode compression ratio and this is what I found:

As you can see by the subtitles in the video it goes from 6:1 to 18:1..

I don't see much a difference, it gets a bit more brighter and the clouds may be get a little more mushier (but its really subjective)? But I cannot for the life of me see a difference, especially in the sign "GOODERHAM & WORTS limited" sign.

So for the more experienced, please help me understand how the compression ratio degrades IQ???

[Jonesy Jones]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

Sorry, for reviving an old topic.

I'm quite interested in the Red Raven.

Just so that people are up to date. Sensor size has also increased? Its a 4.5K sensor with 1.62 crop factor?

And, yeah it does 4.5K @ 120fps. 15:1 REDCode ratio.

Perhaps someone can enlighten us about the compression? I mean you guys say its bad compared to a more useable 8:1 and lower, but what does that mean?

Okay... for example... I did some research on the REDCode compression ratio and this is what I found:

As you can see by the subtitles in the video it goes from 6:1 to 18:1..

I don't see much a difference, it gets a bit more brighter and the clouds may be get a little more mushier (but its really subjective)? But I cannot for the life of me see a difference, especially in the sign "GOODERHAM & WORTS limited" sign.

So for the more experienced, please help me understand how the compression ratio degrades IQ???

Pretty sure the exposure change is a result of the clouds moving around and nothing to do with compression ratio. Also, it's possible you won't be able to see a difference due to Vimeo's compression or rescaling. But it would be my guess, and I don't know so I'm just guessing, that you'll notice the difference more when grading and probably in different shooting conditions, like low light. 

Also, Raven's sensor is not the same dimensions as URSA mini's. There's a lot more useable resolution on UM. Also, Red's image is softer than BM's. To my knowledge BM's image will be much more detailed. Whether or not that's a good thing I don't know.