FilmMan Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 More information on the Kineraw: [url="https://vimeo.com/46156047"]https://vimeo.com/46156047[/url] by Dan Chung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germy1979 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Hahaha.. I got this whole vibe everytime the interviewer ask him about a feature, it was a little bit of a let down. "so no phantom power huh? ...just line level..?" (uncomfortable silence.) - "y,..y, yes... Just line level." "so you have to use Kinemags right? No third party for dng recording?" ... Or, "so just 4:2:2 huh..... hmmm.". Cricket cricket cricket.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmMan Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 I was thinking the same thing. I like having competition in the video realm but you need to really standout especially if you are a entering the video field. BM is coming in at around $3K and is an established company (although not in the video camera sector). Competition heating up... 1. Sony Fs700 2. Scarlet 3. Used Redmx (movies still be shot on these cameras) 4. BM coming 5. Canon 1DC coming 6. Possible JVC (their fix lense 4k camera is better than people think) interchangeable camera. 7. Leica camera? 8. Digital Bolex. 9. And others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 [quote name='Germy1979' timestamp='1342986122' post='14314'] Hahaha.. I got this whole vibe everytime the interviewer ask him about a feature, it was a little bit of a let down. "so no phantom power huh? ...just line level..?" (uncomfortable silence.) - "y,..y, yes... Just line level." "so you have to use Kinemags right? No third party for dng recording?" ... Or, "so just 4:2:2 huh..... hmmm.". Cricket cricket cricket.... [/quote] I've been talking to them about the mic level and phantom power issue for some time, if you have any real interest you should email them and tell them what you think. There are reasons why you are better off using something like the 4 channel Zoom with 3 pin XLR and phantom power with regard to S/N ratio because the internal EMI/RFI in any digital device can leak into the microvolt signal levels of audio, so some kind of external pre-amp is a better option anyway, and if they leave it out of the camera it reduces cost that you would not need anyway if you are using an external preamp. I've been over that issue for years, but they have their own plans, and maybe you can give them your thoughts on the issue. 4:2:2 refers to the fact that its a Bayer sensor, the actual bandwidth is 100% of the sensor data from the sensor, as everyone know the Bayer sensor used in Digital Cinema cameras is just a monochrome sensor with a color filter over it that has 50% green filters, 25% red filters, and 25% blue filters, that is the same for all Bayer filter cameras like Canon (tm), Arri (tm), or Red (tm). As for the KineMAG (tm)s the reason that you would want those for the CinemaDNG (tm) is that the bandwidth is high, and they have some SSD that are tested. There is noting "preventing" you from using other SATA SSD as far as I know, I have even recorded shot shots to a note book drive until the camera's buffer fills, but they cannot tell you if those other drives will work, in general the specs may need to be 5x or more what you think would work in order to take the non-stop recording, in the KineRAW-S8p (tm) I have recorded non-stop for the whole 60GB SSD at about 107MB/s (2592x1104x12bit@25fps) but only in their tested high speed SSD. They don't want people to go out an purchase some slower SSD that they think is lower cost only to find that it cannot meet the non-stop recording rate, as far as I can tell. The camera shoots nice uncompressed CinemaDNG (tm) as well as Cineform (tm) and in the end, its the image quality that will matter, their is a autoslate beep in the camera you can wire to an external sound recorder, or you can use a manual slate etc. The S8p (tm) I've been testing has SMPTE I/O as well although I have not tested it yet, other than to burn in the SMPTE from the meta-data for off-line editing. I'm processing some shots now, if you want some sample uncompressed frames you can email me. You can find Cineform (tm) clips here, Quote:[ Here are more Cineform RAW clips shot on KineRAW-S35; we would like to share with you. [URL]http://download.kinefinity.com/download/PRJ-0001-011-A1.mov[/URL] [URL]http://download.kinefinity.com/download/ALVIN-0001-099-A1.mov[/URL] [URL]http://download.kinefinity.com/download/ALVIN-0001-112-A1.mov[/URL] [URL]http://download.kinefinity.com/download/ALVIN-0001-121-A1.mov[/URL] [URL]http://download.kinefinity.com/download/PARK-0001-023-A1.mov[/URL] [URL]http://download.kinefinity.com/download/PARK-0001-028-A1.mov[/URL] [URL]http://download.kinefinity.com/download/PARK-0001-071-A1.mov[/URL] [URL]http://download.kinefinity.com/download/PARK-0001-094-A1.mov[/URL] When downloading the files, Attention that the server has limited connections, so please download one file at one time. Cineform Firstlight/Davinci Resolve/Speedgrade/Scratch could be used for grading/rendering. May use the Cineform decoder settings-->Demosaic Type-->advanced details to make image look sharper. Need to install Cineform decoder on your PC or MAC to playback, Cineform Decoder download link: [URL]http://cineform.com/gopro-cineform-decoder[/URL] ] You will also need to drag and drop the 3D-LUTs onto the Cineform (tm) LUT tool in the Cineform (tm) program folder, http://download.kinefinity.com/download/XD48K04M.cube http://download.kinefinity.com/download/XD48K04M.look The 3D-LUT are mated to the ISO and K value used when shooting so need to be installed for the clips above to play with the right "one light" color correction, the look group used is intended for having the shots graded, so graded results would look better. Various monitoring LUT can be loaded into the camera and selected with the encoder knob from a quick button menu labeled "look", and depending on which "look" is selected the camera makes a corresponding 3D-LUT in each shot folder, in this case the same "look" was used for all my test shots so far, that are linked to above for those MOV files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Sorry about the quality of that test frame, but I was limited to 44kB to upload, I can send you the original uncompressed 2048x1080 2K DCP size image if you email me at: tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germy1979 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 [quote name='Dan Hudgins' timestamp='1343024653' post='14347'] Sorry about the quality of that test frame, but I was limited to 44kB to upload, I can send you the original uncompressed 2048x1080 2K DCP size image if you email me at: tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com [/quote] Lol. Dan if this camera had NO audio capability it would be fine with me. I have a macbook pro with an Apogee Duet 2 with symphony converters and 2 Neumann Km 84's for that job. :). I figured, when he said Kinemags only, the bitrate in DNG raw was so high that they wouldn't guarantee its ability with third party cards just yet... I mean he said like, 900mbps... I suspect I will have no issues with macro blocking, haha. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 looks good. they took a lesson from the e-mount it would appear. very short flange/focal distance there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 [quote name='richg101' timestamp='1343059015' post='14365'] looks good. they took a lesson from the e-mount it would appear. very short flange/focal distance there. [/quote] I made adapters for its sub-PL mount for: Eyemo Mitchell NC Bell and Howell 2709 M42 universal screw mount OCT-19 which can mount the lenses that stick back like the 150mm f/2.8 so far all the OCT-19 I have tested fit because the adapter is deeper than one that would be made for a normal PL or Canon mount which may not work with some OCT-19 lenses, I even got the 80mm Anamorphic to fit. I have photos of what my adapters look like, if you want to see you can email me for jpg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 [quote name='Dan Hudgins' timestamp='1343070928' post='14370'] I made adapters for its sub-PL mount for: Eyemo Mitchell NC Bell and Howell 2709 M42 universal screw mount OCT-19 which can mount the lenses that stick back like the 150mm f/2.8 so far all the OCT-19 I have tested fit because the adapter is deeper than one that would be made for a normal PL or Canon mount which may not work with some OCT-19 lenses, I even got the 80mm Anamorphic to fit. I have photos of what my adapters look like, if you want to see you can email me for jpg. [/quote] IMO you should also create C/Y and QBM mounts for the multitude of affordable german lenses available in those mounts. Id have arrived for interview with the camera mated to a hired cooke panchro, with the rest of the set just in view for effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 24, 2012 Administrators Share Posted July 24, 2012 Hey Dan is there a better way of getting some clips to me? The KineRaw server really crawls in Berlin!! I'm getting 4.3kb per second on a line capable of 900kb and the download times out so it is basically impossible for me to grab the footage and write a blog about it. I can set up up with FTP access to my server if you can upload them to here. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 [quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1343140241' post='14422'] Hey Dan is there a better way of getting some clips to me? The KineRaw server really crawls in Berlin!! I'm getting 4.3kb per second on a line capable of 900kb and the download times out so it is basically impossible for me to grab the footage and write a blog about it. I can set up up with FTP access to my server if you can upload them to here. Cheers! [/quote] Maybe, some of the Cineform â„¢ clips are over 600MB each, and my Brother's ADSL seems limited to about 50mbs (?, maybe 4MB/s?) upload, but going to Kinefinity.com (sm)'s FTP I was only uploading 20kB/s sometimes (and >1 at other times maybe), it too a few weeks to send the clips to them, they are only posting a very few I have shot over 240GB so far of DNG and Cineform â„¢ mov, as I have mentioned I will be shooting BOTH mode most of the time to compare the CinemaDNG â„¢ and Cineform â„¢ recordings which work in slightly different ways in addition to the wavelet compression being applied in the Cineform â„¢ version of the same sensor data in each frame. You can email me directly at: tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com with "EOSHD user wants frames from S35" in the subject line and I can send some sample conversions I made to TIF and or BMP, the TIF frames are 13MB each since I am processing to Digital Intermediate (DI) using 48bpp TIF frames 2048x1080 uncompressed. I can email one frame at a time in a single e-mail if your email box can hold about 20MB per email. I can't attache some half size JPG because I only have 1MB of space left here to post images. You can see those on DVXuser in my post there. You should only view the uncompressed TIF and BMP 1:1 pixel on a 2K or larger monitor from a distance of 2.5x the image diagonal. Also I am grading to FULL RANGE, so if your LCD monitor uses the ITU 601 limits or just has bad highlight and shadow detail you will not be able to see the full and wide tonal range in the DI frames, I have a 2048x1536 CRT monitor for grading that shows all the video board can put out for the most part without highlight clipping. The issue of ITU 601 limits of 64/1023 and 940/1023 is a big one for HD monitors as if you apply those limits to images one sends out the results may look flat and washed out on a good computer monitor, and if you don't apply those limits the images may look to have blown out highlights and no shadow detail on crummy LCD monitors, likewise for the JPG attached. Anyway, Kinefinity.com (sm) may be able to move some of the Cineform â„¢ clips to the same Chinese file share site they were using before, that may get you 50kB/s transfer or so? You can email them about the issue, they should be informed if you are having problems downloading the Cineform â„¢ clips and 3D-LUT from their site. Their email is on their web site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 [quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1343140241' post='14422'] Hey Dan is there a better way of getting some clips to me? The KineRaw server really crawls in Berlin!! I'm getting 4.3kb per second on a line capable of 900kb and the download times out so it is basically impossible for me to grab the footage and write a blog about it. I can set up up with FTP access to my server if you can upload them to here. Cheers! [/quote] I asked Kinefinity.com (tm) about your FTP for file transfer, and they say that if you give them your FTP info they can upload the MOV Cineform (tm) clips to you. Quote: [ tell us the ftp so that We can upload footage to the ftp? ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Direct from Kinefinity â„¢, BIRTV2012, Aug 22nd~25th, Our KineRAW-S35 â„¢ will be shown at booth number is 2B222 == I'm out of photo space, but you can email me if you would like some uncompressed samples taken with the KineRAW-S35 (tm) that I have processed so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I Got a email from Kinefinity.com (sm) about the news from the trade show, 1) Quote: [Besides, i got hundreds of emails from different countries. But i have no time to reply to them in time. I will communicate with them soon.] So please give them some time to reply as they are very busy right now. 2) Quote: [People love the image quality, [edit]. If our first 20 units work well as expected, we may get many orders in China.] They got pre-orders at the trade show and are I guess going to ship about 10 to 20 units for advanced field testing, and when any issues that come up are workout on those cameras gear up for mass production. 3) Quote: [We did a great exhibition in Beijing. Our booth were crowded everyday nearly, and we missed lunch some days.] 4) They say they still have plans for the S8 and S16 models but are looking into the details in light of the other cameras that are under development in the market. 5) The new target body price for the KineRAW-S35 (tm) is about USD $6300. 6) The have worked with a company called MOVCAM (tm) to get accessories, you can check the MOVCAM (tm) web site to see more details and look at the photo (you can email me for sine I am out of photo space here) about what those look like with the camera. So a lot of progress in the past year! My Brother was shooting some lighting tests last night for a science fiction short he wants to see how the S35 looks under that short of lighting so we were shooting with the 2800K Tungsten "look" in the KineColor look group at EI ISO 800, that gives a slight blue cast to some of the lighting and better balance for the bulbs on a VariAC to control the lighting ratios. We were using a LOMO 100mm f/2.0 at T/2.8 and 144 degrees on the shutter. He seemed pleased with the results so far. The grading range is quite wide and there are no block artifacts of the kind that show up in H.264 recording cameras so it looks much like a 35mm film scan would, maybe with less grain and no processing marks like film would show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 26, 2012 Administrators Share Posted August 26, 2012 LOMO OCT 19 or PL? Cheers for the update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 On the OCT-19 or PL question, the camera has a sub-PL mount on it (short FFD) you can then attach many kinds of lens adapter, I did not need the PL adapter but that is one option the have, I made the OCT-19 one to use the lenses we have, they asked me to send photos so they can make one of their own in OCT-19 for testing. I also made Eyemo, Mitchell NC, and Bell and Howell 2709 to KineRAW-S35 (tm) sub-PL mount adapters for the testing I need to do here. In addition to that the sent me a Canon lens adapter and I put a M42 screw mount adapter in that so I can use SLR lenses I have like the 85mm f/1.5, 135mm f/1.8 and so on. I got time to convert the KineRAW-S35 (tm) 2048x1080 version of the video Alvin Somwaru helped shoot in Golden Gate Park into Letter-boxed MPEG4 1920x1080 for posting on Vimeo, http://vimeo.com/49064745 I used TEncoder (tm) set to 12000 kbps and two pass compression for the conversion from the graded uncompressed AVI but there are still some compression artifacts that show up here and there, anyone have suggestions for a better free, or maybe not free, encoder for making H.264 video files that Vimeo will accept? I was using just the MPEG4v2 option in VirtualDUB (tm) but that is one pass and shows much worse compression artifacts. If you see the video as looking too light and washed out on your MAC notebook let me know about that, I may try to post another copy graded darker. It seems there is a bug in Quicktime (tm) where it shows videos too light and washed out looking, under Media Player (tm) on my Brother's PC with the CRT monitor set to 1920 resolution it looks OK as far as brightness. Viewing on a LCD or HD monitor it may look like the highlights are burned out and the shadows too dark since I encoded it full range for PC viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hudgins Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 If you follow the link for Alvin Somwaru from my Vimeo page for the video above, you can see some more footage on his Vimeo page he processed from Cineform (tm) clips shot in the KineRAW-S35 (tm) that I have not had time to grade and letterbox yet for posting on my Vimeo page... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.